Katawa Shoujo Forums

Broomhead wrote:During Shizune route you find out that he A: had a girlfriend and broke up with her over trivial matters. This means it had most likely gone on for a while, and also may be what caused him to be so... anti-feminist? and B: That he is kinda aware that there are the (non-existent IMO) feminist autocrats, and girls capable of being related to.

Right, you learn Kenji is out of his mind. That's what I said. He didn't bail over "trivial matters", he bailed over "totally insane matters". Dude's a loony toon.

And it's not your opinion that feminist autocrats don't exist. It's a fact. There isn't a feminist alive who has enough power to call themselves an autocrat. Though Shizune could call herself one by severely stretching imagination, given her place lording over the Student Council.

And Shizune's route is mostly indirect and subtle. That's why it takes attention. Most people hate it the first time around. There was an entire thread devoted to it once, even. Even brought its writer out to talk, unfortunately.

I should rephrase that potato, I apologize. I found Shizune's route entertaining and interesting, didn't find it as emotional as the other two I've played, so being hyped up for a feels trip made it feel boring.

d2r wrote:

ogorhan wrote:This is exactly like the discussion we had about people not wanting to see the bad endings and people agreeing and disagreeing about why you should or should not do. Everyone is different and everyone enjoys things differently, some like to use flowcharts and avoid making the "wrong" choices and others want the 100% the game. This shouldnt mean that they are playing the game wrong, its just what they enjoy more, so what if they know what choices they have to make or are not really "immersing" themselves. They are not you so let them.

This and many other topics where people's opinions vary can go on endlessly, so its best not to dwell on it

I wouldn't go that far. I think that if you don't see the bad endings, you aren't experiencing the entire work & are short-changing yourself. That, IMO, is different than using a flowchart.

See, I'd argue that in the end, depriving yourself of the tension and experience that comes with making the choices blind for the parts you do read is worse than not reading the whole thing. At least with the latter, the parts that have been read have been read with full critical thought.

Really though, I agree that ogorgan has a point. We likely won't see eye-to-eye on this, and maybe if we want to debate it further, PMs would be better. Which I'd be happy to do, to be clear.

Broomhead wrote:I should rephrase that potato, I apologize. I found Shizune's route entertaining and interesting, didn't find it as emotional as the other two I've played, so being hyped up for a feels trip made it feel boring.

Pfffft. Hype is for the gullible.

Potato wrote:

Broomhead wrote:During Shizune route you find out that he A: had a girlfriend and broke up with her over trivial matters. This means it had most likely gone on for a while, and also may be what caused him to be so... anti-feminist? and B: That he is kinda aware that there are the (non-existent IMO) feminist autocrats, and girls capable of being related to.

Right, you learn Kenji is out of his mind. That's what I said. He didn't bail over "trivial matters", he bailed over "totally insane matters". Dude's a loony toon.

And it's not your opinion that feminist autocrats don't exist. It's a fact. There isn't a feminist alive who has enough power to call themselves an autocrat. Though Shizune could call herself one by severely stretching imagination, given her place lording over the Student Council.

And Shizune's route is mostly indirect and subtle. That's why it takes attention. Most people hate it the first time around. There was an entire thread devoted to it once, even. Even brought its writer out to talk, unfortunately.

What a argument, you know, you can don't love the Shizune Route and don't be a moron unable to understand the subtlety of her Route.

Zarys wrote: What a argument, you know, you can don't love the Shizune Route and don't be a moron unable to understand the subtlety of her Route.

I apologize, I have no idea what you said. It sounds like you are either trying to say "You can not love the Shizune Route and not be a moron unable to understand the subtlety of her route." or "You can't love the Shizune Route and not be a moron unable to understand the subtlety of her route." Could you please clarify?

Zarys wrote:

Potato wrote:

Broomhead wrote:During Shizune route you find out that he A: had a girlfriend and broke up with her over trivial matters. This means it had most likely gone on for a while, and also may be what caused him to be so... anti-feminist? and B: That he is kinda aware that there are the (non-existent IMO) feminist autocrats, and girls capable of being related to.

Right, you learn Kenji is out of his mind. That's what I said. He didn't bail over "trivial matters", he bailed over "totally insane matters". Dude's a loony toon.

And it's not your opinion that feminist autocrats don't exist. It's a fact. There isn't a feminist alive who has enough power to call themselves an autocrat. Though Shizune could call herself one by severely stretching imagination, given her place lording over the Student Council.

And Shizune's route is mostly indirect and subtle. That's why it takes attention. Most people hate it the first time around. There was an entire thread devoted to it once, even. Even brought its writer out to talk, unfortunately.

What a argument, you know, you can don't love the Shizune Route and don't be a moron unable to understand the subtlety of her Route.

Not. Not is the word you want. And considering that I never claimed otherwise, pointing that out is rather pointless...

And Shizune's route is mostly indirect and subtle. That's why it takes attention. Most people hate it the first time around.

This does kind of imply that the reason people don't like Shizune's route is that it's too subtle for their tiny minds, and that it couldn't possibly be that some people just weren't interested in it because it was boring and drawn out. No, no, you must be a simpleton if you don't like Shizune's route because being an intellectual character study excuses being dry and unsatisfying. Also personal preference over what is enjoyable in a VN directly correlates with how smart you are.

Remind you of anything?

Remember, A22 wrote the least popular character and route in the game, for what it's worth.

While I also didn't like Shizune's route as much as the others (still good compared to most other VNs out there, though) it is for a different reason. I completely agree with A22 on few meaningful choices being better than lots of meaningless choices.
I think Aura's Rin path is the best written of them all, but all those choices that didn't affect the outcome at all were driving me crazy, and I think Rin's path would have been better if he had cut out two thirds of them.

Regarding walkthroughs, when I read the VN, there weren't any available, but if there had been, I probably would have used them, and not just because time until the release was growing short, and for the life of me I couldn't figure out how to get the last Rin scene
Like d2r I see KS as a novel, not as a game, so I don't feel any accomplishment on reaching the end any more than when I finish reading a book.

Mirage_GSM wrote:

Remember, A22 wrote the least popular character and route in the game, for what it's worth.

While I also didn't like Shizune's route as much as the others (still good compared to most other VNs out there, though) it is for a different reason. I completely agree with A22 on few meaningful choices being better than lots of meaningless choices.
I think Aura's Rin path is the best written of them all, but all those choices that didn't affect the outcome at all were driving me crazy, and I think Rin's path would have been better if he had cut out two thirds of them.

In a way I agree, but in another way, I see value in those choices. Even if they don't drastically affect the route or change the outcome at all, they give me a chance to approach a conversation in the way I would do so, and little details like that in the narrative matter.

That's why with Mass Effect 3, (which I haven't finished yet so no spoilers) knowing that the endings aren't all that different doesn't discourage me much. Even if all of those choices I made lead me to the exact same destination, it might be a little disappointing, but it would still matter to me. I'm "proud" of the way I've handled my Shepard, and the way I treated people throughout the trilogy. Getting to the same ending wouldn't mean as much to me if I was being an asshole the whole time. I'd feel like a jerk. Same thing with Epic Mickey. The endings were pretty much all the same, but the journey there felt satisfying because I did the right things to get there.

In this way, those "meaningless" choices still have worth to me, and I'd prefer to keep them in.

ME3 is different.
Most of those choices HAVE meaning. They might not affect the ending much, but they radically change the game experience on the way there. Did you manage to keep sidekick X alive through all adversities? Did you antagonize sidekick Y? Did you save colony Alpha or did you let it be ravaged by evil aliens? I honestly didn't mind the similar endings that much, because on the way there everything WAS different.

In Rin's path you get lots of choices, and for most of them the only difference is which of two scenes you get to see at one point of the story, and neither of the two is really relevant to the story at all.

Mirage_GSM wrote:ME3 is different.
Most of those choices HAVE meaning. They might not affect the ending much, but they radically change the game experience on the way there. Did you manage to keep sidekick X alive through all adversities? Did you antagonize sidekick Y? Did you save colony Alpha or did you let it be ravaged by evil aliens? I honestly didn't mind the similar endings that much, because on the way there everything WAS different.

In Rin's path you get lots of choices, and for most of them the only difference is which of two scenes you get to see at one point of the story, and neither of the two is really relevant to the story at all.

Even then, even if they aren't totally plot relevant and even if they change almost nothing, having a say in how Hisao responds to Rin matters to me. For example, saying "I wish I was more like Emi" or "I wish I was more like you" might not matter in the slightest, but to me, comparing himself to Rin positively there is much kinder and I'm glad I had the option to do so.

Mirage_GSM wrote:ME3 is different.
In Rin's path you get lots of choices, and for most of them the only difference is which of two scenes you get to see at one point of the story, and neither of the two is really relevant to the story at all.

Point taken about the choices in Rin's path, but I rather liked the choice structure. The choice structure was baroque and complicated and occasionally tail-chasing, rather like Rin herself.

Liminaut wrote:Point taken about the choices in Rin's path, but I rather liked the choice structure. The choice structure was baroque and complicated and occasionally tail-chasing, rather like Rin herself.

Actually, that's a really interesting way of looking at it. I should replay the route at some point.

My order: Emi, Hanako, Lilly, Shizune... still have Rin to go

Emi -> Seemed like the "smart" choice, basically because you go running with her to stay healthy as per the nurse's orders and it just kind of happens. I thoroughly enjoyed her route, although hisao came across as the most pig-headed in this one
Hanako -> Seemed like the most intriguing, you knew there'd be so many pent up issues with her and there are. Success in this route felt very rewarding, but I still think there really could have been more content
Lilly -> Seemed like a natural fit as well after Hanako. I have to say that this one felt a little odd, the way the story progressed kind of caught me off guard a bit, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. IMO the most "dramatic" of all the routes
Shizune -> I left her for next to last as her personality didn't appeal to me very much. The lack of choices in this one was kind of disappointing, as was the ending... it seemed abrupt and unfinished in a way most of the others didn't. I kind of get that idea, but I didn't love it

Thinking back on it, I don't think I could rank them in any kind of order, except that the first 3 were all more enjoyable than shizune's route.

Rin-> Haven't touched this one yet as it didn't appeal to me as much, even less than shizune, (I've had too many bad experiences as a scientist dating art types ) but I'm intrigued because it sounds like the most complicated.