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Re: Journey of a Non-weeaboo

Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:50 pm
by SpunkySix
Steinherz wrote:
SpunkySix wrote:
Potato wrote:Sex has been around much, much longer than the arbitrary concept of marriage.
So have all of the potential consequences of doing it before being in a position of stability... I've always said, if you want to gamble because the chances of winning are high enough, then fine, but gamble with your own life and not somebody else's.
Except humans don't exist to get married, humans exist to breed.
That only matters if we reduce ourselves to unthinking animals who live on instinct. I don't exist to breed. I like to think I'm more than a baby machine. I want to make life better for people that exist now so that the children they may or may not have might be happier as well, not make sure a bunch of unhappy people that I didn't really want anyways exist later. Plus, you can have children after you're in a stable position. It's not like most people die before they reach 20 or so anyways, so I'm not seeing how that negates my point.

And for the record, legal marriage is superficial. I'm talking about the stability that generally comes with it.

Re: Journey of a Non-otaku

Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 7:51 pm
by SpunkySix
bhtooefr wrote:Except people are going to have sex, so arguments that people just shouldn't have it are very, very ineffective and harmful.
That's a shame. I guess it's true, but it really is sad to me that people are so controlled by their urges that responsible waiting is out of the question.

Re: Journey of a Non-otaku

Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 8:12 pm
by bhtooefr
And, like others and myself have said, there's ways to decouple sex from babymaking, too, most of which are quite reliable (95+% if used properly), and one of which has 100% reliability if something does go wrong. What if you never want to have children? Should you be a permavirgin? (And anal isn't 100% effective either, due to leakage. Vasectomies and IIRC tubal ligations aren't quite 100%, either.)

Re: Journey of a Non-otaku

Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 8:20 pm
by Steinherz
SpunkySix wrote:
bhtooefr wrote:Except people are going to have sex, so arguments that people just shouldn't have it are very, very ineffective and harmful.
That's a shame. I guess it's true, but it really is sad to me that people are so controlled by their urges that responsible waiting is out of the question.
Humanity has stupidly created incredibly asinine and arbitrary things to keep people from doing what they want to do.
If people want to have sex, let them do so. Who are you to decry others from things they want to do if it doesn't affect you personally in the slightest?
That's my whole issue on matters such as that. It's not other people having sex suddenly causes you problems, so why comment on it?

Re: Journey of a Non-otaku

Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 8:34 pm
by SpunkySix
Steinherz wrote:
SpunkySix wrote:
bhtooefr wrote:Except people are going to have sex, so arguments that people just shouldn't have it are very, very ineffective and harmful.
That's a shame. I guess it's true, but it really is sad to me that people are so controlled by their urges that responsible waiting is out of the question.
Humanity has stupidly created incredibly asinine and arbitrary things to keep people from doing what they want to do.
If people want to have sex, let them do so. Who are you to decry others from things they want to do if it doesn't affect you personally in the slightest?
That's my whole issue on matters such as that. It's not other people having sex suddenly causes you problems, so why comment on it?
Because it can hurt other people. If it couldn't, then I'd have no problem with it. It amazes me how people use statistics like 95%+ and act like the kids who grow up poor and depressed are supposed to care what the chances of them happening were. I know I certainly wouldn't.

Besides, this does affect me. Apparently not wanting to have sex before a certain point totally negates the potential for a relationship with the majority of potential partners. So much for the power of love conquering all.

Re: Journey of a Non-otaku

Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 8:43 pm
by SpunkySix
bhtooefr wrote:What if you never want to have children? Should you be a permavirgin? (And anal isn't 100% effective either, due to leakage. Vasectomies and IIRC tubal ligations aren't quite 100%, either.)
There's a difference between not wanting to have children but having the ability and the will to support them if something does go wrong, and not wanting kids and being unable to support them if something does wrong. Of course not ever having sex would be stupid. All people would have to do is wait until they were prepared to deal with the possible consequences.

I don't want kids, ever. You don't think maybe I've given this extensive thought? I'm naive sometimes, but I'm not stupid. Honestly though, if it came down to it as a choice somehow, a loving relationship would be well worth never fucking to me personally. If love is half of the influential force people make it out to be, then I don't see why that wouldn't be the obvious choice. And yet, it's a deal breaker for so many people.

Can somebody explain why this one thing is so important? People overlook flaws way more harmful than this all the time. People overlook greed and meanness and hate all the time in relationships. Why is "doesn't care for sex much" suddenly the big no-no?

Re: Journey of a Non-otaku

Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 8:59 pm
by bhtooefr
And most of those kids are a result of poor access to family planning products and services, which is a result of the attitude that people shouldn't have sex, and the even worse attitude that sex can be prevented by blocking access to family planning. (This also worsens the STD issue, too, of course.)

And, I will note that asexuality and demisexuality are things that exist. Shit, I identify as somewhere on the demisexual spectrum. But, just because someone is sexual doesn't mean they should be slut-shamed for it.

Re: Journey of a Non-otaku

Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 9:00 pm
by Steinherz
bhtooefr wrote:And most of those kids are a result of poor access to family planning products and services, which is a result of the attitude that people shouldn't have sex, and the even worse attitude that sex can be prevented by blocking access to family planning. (This also worsens the STD issue, too, of course.)
^^^
THIS
Finally, someone points that out.

And with that, I am done with this topic.
Let's move onto something else, shall we?

Re: Journey of a Non-otaku

Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 9:15 pm
by SpunkySix
Steinherz wrote:
bhtooefr wrote:And most of those kids are a result of poor access to family planning products and services, which is a result of the attitude that people shouldn't have sex, and the even worse attitude that sex can be prevented by blocking access to family planning. (This also worsens the STD issue, too, of course.)
^^^
THIS
Finally, someone points that out.

And with that, I am done with this topic.
Let's move onto something else, shall we?
Sure. I still don't entirely agree, but it's clearly going nowhere, so I'm fine with moving on.

Re: Journey of a Non-otaku

Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 9:17 pm
by SpunkySix
bhtooefr wrote:And, I will note that asexuality and demisexuality are things that exist.
I guess it just bothers me that people leaning that way are treated as being worse than selfish. More people would rather go out with a selfish pig than somebody who is kind but won't put out.

Re: Journey of a Non-otaku

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 12:00 am
by Mandalorian
This got surprisingly wayward. I knew I shouldn't have been so open. Ah well.

Playing through now on Rin's route. Definitely not what I expected so far. I'm at Iwanako's letter again, so not much has really happened, but I can already see the conflict in this story. I'm really interested to see where it goes.

I really wish we had more information on Iwanako, though. Every time I get to this part it feels so melodramatic because I barely know the character. As far as I know, Hisao kind of liked her is all. I'm probably just missing something, maybe because I skip the beginning every time I play through, so I've only seen it once.

Also, I was about to post this into a separate thread, but I realized that'd be wasteful and could just as easily be asked here:

What's this about third-years and trimesters? Living in the United States, where high school lasts four years and are broken up into semesters, I'm lead to believe that Japan operates on threes rather than fours. Is this true?

Re: Journey of a Non-otaku

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 12:33 am
by SpunkySix
Mandalorian wrote:I really wish we had more information on Iwanako, though. Every time I get to this part it feels so melodramatic because I barely know the character. As far as I know, Hisao kind of liked her is all. I'm probably just missing something, maybe because I skip the beginning every time I play through, so I've only seen it once.

Also, I was about to post this into a separate thread, but I realized that'd be wasteful and could just as easily be asked here:

What's this about third-years and trimesters? Living in the United States, where high school lasts four years and are broken up into semesters, I'm lead to believe that Japan operates on threes rather than fours. Is this true?
I think the idea with Iwanako is that even though it might have only been a crush, she was the person Hisao liked most at his school and his last link there, so she ends up being a symbol of the abandonment he felt. Not sure about trimesters though.

Re: Journey of a Non-otaku

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 12:36 am
by brythain
Mandalorian wrote:I really wish we had more information on Iwanako, though. Every time I get to this part it feels so melodramatic because I barely know the character. As far as I know, Hisao kind of liked her is all. I'm probably just missing something, maybe because I skip the beginning every time I play through, so I've only seen it once.
That's truly an interesting character to think about. After all, she's the catalyst for our story, in the sense that she triggers Hisao's latent condition and sets us off on our little drama, but then returns (as far as we're concerned) to her original state.
Mandalorian wrote:What's this about third-years and trimesters? Living in the United States, where high school lasts four years and are broken up into semesters, I'm lead to believe that Japan operates on threes rather than fours. Is this true?
Japan runs a 6/3/3 system; that is, primary 1-6, middle 7-9, high 10-12 would be a good approximation.
So Yamaku's years 1-3 correspond to grades 10-12 in an American system.

First term is something like early April to end July (roughly 15 weeks).
Summer break is from end July to early September/end August (about 6 weeks).
Second term is from early September to late December (roughly 15 weeks).
Winter break is from roughly Christmas in December through first week of January (2 weeks).
Third term is from early January to late March (roughly 12 weeks).
Spring break is late March to early April (about 2 weeks).

Generally they plan a 40-week annual schedule for teaching, as do most Asian schools.

Re: Journey of a Non-otaku

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 1:30 am
by Guest Poster
As for what I quoted, that bothers me. It bothers me that people value such a relatively pointless thing that amounts to a few minutes of fun so much and are so impatient that they're totally willing to throw away life-long love, probably the deepest form of friendship, just because they want it and they want it now.
Interesting that you refer to sexual interaction between loved ones as 'a relatively pointless thing'. Because to Hisao and Emi, it obviously isn't pointless. Sex isn't just physical pleasure, couples all across the world also use it to emotionally bond with one another. In fact, the last H-scene of Emi's route shows that Emi and Hisao use sex as a way to form a deeper emotional connection. Sitting together and exchanging smiles just isn't the same thing.
Without Emi, (assuming it's her path) Hisao loses his motivation to run and stay healthy, becomes depressed and lonely for who knows how long and most likely dies young. Without Hisao, Emi continues to hurt inside intensely, shuts everybody out and continues to live in denial indefinitely. They're the best thing that's ever happened to them, and you're honestly telling me that having to wait a little to fuck is worth losing that?
Apparantly, if the route is to be believed. It's not 'waiting a little'. To a highschool relationship (which may not even last all the way through university) between hormone-filled teenagers, waiting for years to do it is the same as not doing it at all.
That's crazy. It totally undermines the concept of love to me. People talk about how they'd take a bullet or do all these things for the ones they love, but keeping it in their pants for a few years is somehow over the line? I don't get it.
Because you're completely ignoring the emotional and the human aspects of sex in a relationship, pretending that it only has physical value for those involved. Millions of couples across the world would like to disagree with you. Birth control these days is reliable enough for people to do it without feeling like they have to dodge a bullet each time they sleep with each other. To many, many people (incuding your waifu and her boyfriend) a healthy sex life is part of a healthy relationship life and when one suffers, the other endures stress as well.
And yes, like I said, in a normal situation, the chances of pregnancy with safety on and pills and whatnot are very, very small. That being said, freak accidents aren't unheard of and something isn't responsible just because there is a smaller chance of it going wrong.
A chance small enough these days for most people to do it without worrying about it. Freak accidents happen with plane engines too, but people still take airplanes every single day, including pregnant people. Hisao has a heart condition. He could keel over and die every day. He'll never be in a completely stable situation. By your logic, Emi shouldn't even get involved with him. But she does. Sometimes, reducing whatever risks you can and then just living your life to the fullest without worrying about what you could lose is the best way to go. It's certainly the lesson your waifu learned at the end of her route.
and there are plenty alternatives to sex that can be a ton of fun too that don't do that.
Name one alternative that has the same combination of deep emotional and physical fulfillment to people that the act of a long and extended kissing and cuddling session, followed by foreplay and intercourse, followed by snuggling up to each other in the afterglow of the moment and engaging in some sweet afterplay tends to have. A game of hungry hungry hippos just don't give the same sense of fulfillment, fun as it may be.
Ask any accidental child of a struggling teen mother how glad they are to be living at a disadvantage because their mommy wanted the D really bad.
Out of curiousity, are you speaking from personal experience? Or are these excerpts from the abstinence-only sex education they might have taught at school? Because that's a rather extreme scenario you're bringing up.

I have to admit, I can now see why you like Emi so much. Your tendency to look at things as opportunities to lose something (and thus something that should be avoided) is quite a bit like hers. :? (except with Emi it's relationships and with you it's sex)

Again, yes, freak accidents happen. But here's the thing: that applies to all sorts of things. Car accidents happen every single day, yet people (even pregnant ones) still get into cars on a daily basis. I'd even wager that the chance of getting into a car accident each time you get onto the road is higher than the chance of pregnancy due to contraception failure during sex when contraception is used properly. Most people don't let that stop them from driving.

Re: Journey of a Non-otaku

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 3:06 am
by SpunkySix
Goddammit, I don't know anymore.

Yes, I'm aware that sex can be intensely emotional and I loved Emi's last H-scene for it. I really loved Emi in general as a concept, and still do. That being said, for me, just cuddling or even laying next to her without saying a word would be incredible enough. I'm the type of person who could probably date a hologram or a disembodied voice. I don't really... touch people much. It's not like I lack a desire, it's just not a must, and it never has been for me. And I'm awkward and OCD with physical contact. I also think I'm disturbed by the fact that one of my strong principles would put up such a wall between us if we ever actually met. And bothered by the fact that I've seemingly fallen into the same freaking trap she did. I just don't think I could forgive myself if something went wrong but I also don't want to shut myself out to life's experiences and it's incredibly... argh. Usually communicating complex ideas is a strong suit of mine, but then this topic comes up and all of a sudden I'm pretty much Rin.

And I'd rather people stopped assuming that this is a result of abstinence-only education or society's tendency to "slut shame" due to popular opinion. I'm not upset with any one about it, but neither of those are true. I pride myself on independent thinking and want to pursue philosophy because of the fact that it requires deep thought rooted in logic, independent of society's biases. I've written poems trying to capture my thoughts on the subject, I've attempted to draw out my feelings on paper in pen and colored pencils and I've spent hours on end thinking long and hard about these things until I'm frustrated and I can't sleep. The conclusions I've come to, I've come to on my own.

If this is too far off-topic then maybe we could take it to a PM, move it to the Feels Bizarre or drop it or whatever you want to do. I think people want to move on and I don't want to ruin it with my personal issues. Sorry if I rambled or said something weird.