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BlackWaltzTheThird wrote:When mundane things are turned into lengthy, pseudo-motivational monologues for no apparent reason.

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears; I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him. The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus hath told you Caesar was ambitious: If it were so, it was a grievous fault, And grievously hath Caesar answer'd it.
Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest--For Brutus is an honourable man;
So are they all, all honourable men--Come I to speak in Caesar's funeral.
He was my friend, faithful and just to me: But Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man. He hath brought many captives home to Rome
Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill: Did this in Caesar seem ambitious?
When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept: Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious; And Brutus is an honourable man.
You all did see that on the Lupercal , I thrice presented him a kingly crown, Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious; And, sure, he is an honourable man.
I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke, But here I am to speak what I do know.
In west Philadelphia, born and raised, on the playground is where he spent most of his days
Chillin' out, maxin', relaxin' all cool; And all shootin' some b-ball outside of the school,
When a couple of guys who were up to no good started making trouble in his neighborhood
He got in one little fight and his mom got scared; She said 'You're movin' with your auntie and uncle in Bel Air'
He whistled for a cab and when it came near, the license plate said fresh and it had dice in the mirror
If anything he could say that this cab was rare but he thought 'Nah, forget it' - 'Yo, homes to Bel Air'
He pulled up to the house about 7 or 8, and he yelled to the cabbie 'Yo homes smell ya later'
He looked at his kingdom, he was finally there
To sit on his throne as the Prince of Bel Air

TL;DR: Fuck Brutus, and Fresh Prince is awesome.


^ Like that?

Beautiful. Truly beautiful.

BlackWaltzTheThird wrote:When mundane things are turned into lengthy, pseudo-motivational monologues for no apparent reason.

Well that would disqualify what Lilly said as speechifying, since she had a very good reason — never seeing Hanako again. Also saying goodbye forever is not exactly mundane.

It's funny, because when it comes to 'speechifying' I would honestly put Hisao in Shizune's arc as the greatest offender of that. Seriously, some of the elaborate explanations he gives to Misha, especially in Acts 3 and 4, tend to go far beyond what Lilly does in that scene. And this is in spite of Shizune's Hisao being my 3rd favourite of all the Hisaos. And outside of Shizune's arc, the greatest offender of it I would say is Emi's Hisao in the non-Instant Replay resolution (where they meet on the rooftop). Over there it literally felt like Emi's Hisao was bodyswapped with Shizune's Hisao for that scene alone and it really took me out of the whole setting.

But I guess it depends on how much you're invested in Lilly as a character. If you're greatly invested then yeah, you kinda expect her to say more than just a pat on the back and 'see ya' to Hanako when she leaves (presumably) forever. But if, on the other hand, you aren't that invested in Lilly then yeah - I wouldn't be surprised if that moment comes across to you as 'speechifying'. For me it's strange, because you'd think that it would come across as 'speechifying' to me as well since my least favourite girl is also Lilly. But it didn't, because I could put myself in the shoes of Hanako in a small way and...it made sense to me - that kind of 'speech' is the kind of thing someone like Hanako would really need at that moment.

But as I said...a lot of it is dependant upon empathizing with the characters and after that one tends to invent reasons for why this is good writing or bad writing (this applies to Lilly supporters as much as it does for Lilly detractors, or indeed of any girl). That's always the trick when giving feedback on art - just what part of it is indeed the pure form of it and what part of it is your personal tastes trying to mask themselves through rationalizations heheh.

Atario wrote:

BlackWaltzTheThird wrote:When mundane things are turned into lengthy, pseudo-motivational monologues for no apparent reason.

Well that would disqualify what Lilly said as speechifying, since she had a very good reason — never seeing Hanako again. Also saying goodbye forever is not exactly mundane.

Can't really argue with this point. I bring it up because it was the specific example that elicited the reaction from my friend -- said reaction being "oh, here it comes again" -- not because it was the best example of it.

Loonie wrote:If you're greatly invested then yeah, you kinda expect her to say more than just a pat on the back and 'see ya' to Hanako when she leaves (presumably) forever. But if, on the other hand, you aren't that invested in Lilly then yeah - I wouldn't be surprised if that moment comes across to you as 'speechifying'.

OK, going out on a limb on this one, but it was my impression that it was more about "this is stuff that's been said before, repeatedly, over the course of the arc, and if she's going to drop some wisdom here, it should be new wisdom."

dewelar wrote:OK, going out on a limb on this one, but it was my impression that it was more about "this is stuff that's been said before, repeatedly, over the course of the arc, and if she's going to drop some wisdom here, it should be new wisdom."

But you see...that ties right into my point! If you are a reader, that is merely reading this story, then of course you'd think: "This wisdom should be new." But if you are a reader, that can relate and empathize with what the characters are going through, then you can (to some degree) feel Hanako's fear or Lilly's worry for her and understand, that even if the wisdom she's stating isn't new, it simply has to be said at that moment.

It's kinda like someone getting nervous before a concert performance and a person walking up to them and saying: "Just think of the next few notes you have to play on the piano and you'll do great." It could've been said to them a million times before that moment (and is hence certainly not 'new wisdom'), but right there and then - when someone is afraid - the best thing you can do is go back to 'known wisdom' to reassure them and give them the best chances to succeed in the future.

It's something that can come across easily when you empathize and relate, but comes across horribly if you're just reading in a detached manner. At least...that's my take on it.

Loonie wrote:

dewelar wrote:OK, going out on a limb on this one, but it was my impression that it was more about "this is stuff that's been said before, repeatedly, over the course of the arc, and if she's going to drop some wisdom here, it should be new wisdom."

But you see...that ties right into my point! If you are a reader, that is merely reading this story, then of course you'd think: "This wisdom should be new." But if you are a reader, that can relate and empathize with what the characters are going through, then you can (to some degree) feel Hanako's fear or Lilly's worry for her and understand, that even if the wisdom she's stating isn't new, it simply has to be said at that moment.

It's kinda like someone getting nervous before a concert performance and a person walking up to them and saying: "Just think of the next few notes you have to play on the piano and you'll do great." It could've been said to them a million times before that moment (and is hence certainly not 'new wisdom'), but right there and then - when someone is afraid - the best thing you can do is go back to 'known wisdom' to reassure them and give them the best chances to succeed in the future.

It's something that can come across easily when you empathize and relate, but comes across horribly if you're just reading in a detached manner. At least...that's my take on it.

*continuing to nod* Maybe it was my own tiredness coming through in the reading, too. When I was reading Lilly's arc myself, it didn't come across as speechifying to me, but there's also that tendency to generate a bit of a feedback loop when you have multiple people experiencing a thing simultaneously. One person points out something, and the other(s) swing around their perspective(s) to that spot, and they all start to see through each other's eyes. It's how groupthink starts.

I've been relaying all of the feedback to my friend as well. She's come to the conclusion that she might want to hear all the arcs again. I mentioned that she had a nasty cold last week, and she thinks that may have colored her feelings on the Rin and Lilly arcs especially. Oddly, or perhaps not so oddly...I'm OK with the idea . It may need to be set aside for a time first, though, if for no other reason than I'd like the opportunity to reread it all on my own first.

dewelar wrote:I've been relaying all of the feedback to my friend as well. She's come to the conclusion that she might want to hear all the arcs again. I mentioned that she had a nasty cold last week, and she thinks that may have colored her feelings on the Rin and Lilly arcs especially. Oddly, or perhaps not so oddly...I'm OK with the idea . It may need to be set aside for a time first, though, if for no other reason than I'd like the opportunity to reread it all on my own first.

Ah man, I sure hope you're not just saying you're okay with it for our sakes. 'Cause your voice must be going utterly raspy if you plan on doing reading marathons to her back to back again and I'd hate to think that all this feedback of ours is what encouraged her to ask for another reread and strain your voicebox to its breaking point. Still...if you feel up to it, who are we to stop ya? I just hope you take breaks carefully inbetween and mind your voice so you don't lose it - I remember essentially talking to myself when I read KS out loud a year ago and I just couldn't stop at one time. When I came to visit my family the next day they were all like: "Why did you lose your voice?" and I was a bit too embarrased to tell them the truth.

Loonie wrote:

dewelar wrote:I've been relaying all of the feedback to my friend as well. She's come to the conclusion that she might want to hear all the arcs again. I mentioned that she had a nasty cold last week, and she thinks that may have colored her feelings on the Rin and Lilly arcs especially. Oddly, or perhaps not so oddly...I'm OK with the idea . It may need to be set aside for a time first, though, if for no other reason than I'd like the opportunity to reread it all on my own first.

Ah man, I sure hope you're not just saying you're okay with it for our sakes. 'Cause your voice must be going utterly raspy if you plan on doing reading marathons to her back to back again and I'd hate to think that all this feedback of ours is what encouraged her to ask for another reread and strain your voicebox to its breaking point.

*laughs* Actually, it started out as "we have to do Emi again", and then "you know, after reading "Sisterhood", I think I want to hear Hanako's arc again so we can connect the two"...and it just kept going from there. The feedback was just the final nudge.

Loonie wrote:Still...if you feel up to it, who are we to stop ya? I just hope you take breaks carefully inbetween and mind your voice so you don't lose it - I remember essentially talking to myself when I read KS out loud a year ago and I just couldn't stop at one time. When I came to visit my family the next day they were all like: "Why did you lose your voice?" and I was a bit too embarrased to tell them the truth.

Trust me, I know my limits. Over the course of my life, I've done more than my share of vocal work, be it reading aloud, theatre, debate society, running RPGs, or other activities. Actually, reading the fan works was much harder on my vocal cords than the game was. I was very grateful for the two-day break in the Rin arc, because I'd read "WaH" and "Sisterhood" back-to-back immediately before, and I was having trouble doing any voices in the higher registers .

I am weighing another possibility, however. The friend to whom I've been reading also happens to be a member of one of the aforementioned RPG groups for which I currently serve as GM, which happens to be an online made up entirely of blind gamers. She suggested doing a reading for the entire group. I'm...dubious regarding the appropriateness of the prospect. I could see possibly a couple of them appreciating it, but I don't think all of them would. I'll be pondering this one for a while.

Geez. You've really gotten yourself into something here haven't you?

By the way, isn't it a bit ironic that the game is not screen-reader friendly?

Atario wrote:Geez. You've really gotten yourself into something here haven't you?

By the way, isn't it a bit ironic that the game is not screen-reader friendly?

Slightly. Though, screen readers function off of being able to copy/paste text.
You can't do that with the text in most Visual Novels/Computer Games.
Someone needs to figure out how to get Screen Readers to do that

Steinherz wrote:screen readers function off of being able to copy/paste text.

Mmm, that's not strictly true. In Windows, for example, there's a whole API that, if implemented in the code's controls, allows it offer accessibility properties. Try running Narrator sometime and just do normal stuff. Lots of things you can't copy/paste are read or even described to you.

It's probably something the RenPy people would have to add to make happen. While they're at it, they could add not just things like reading the text that appears, but stuff like descriptions of the scenes showing like in Descriptive Audio on TV shows. As things stand now, if you fire up Narrator and run Katawa Shoujo, it tells you the window came up, what its title is (pronounced oddly, of course — "kah ta wah shao joe"), then gives up with a "contains no other known controls".

Maybe we should lobby them for this!

Just to update everyone, I re-read the Emi arc over the past couple nights to my friend. This time, we made sure to hit some of the pieces of the route that we didn't cover before (mainly the Slow Recovery scene). The impetus for this was that she's planning on playing an Emi-ish character in our gaming group.

Reading "Hanako's Story" is still on the agenda at some point, and possibly "Tomorrow's Doom" as well. We tried the "Hisao & Kenji: Master Detectives" series as well, but found it wasn't to her liking. Ah, well.

Emi in a gaming group...Huh. Unexpected.

It's usually best to base characters in their core only and build on your own from there. So, if she can get what Emi is about at her core, I don't think it was that necessary for her to go through every scene she has to scour for clues. The imagination can fill in a lot of the blanks just fine, so long as the core of what the character is about is preserved.

Basically what I'm trying to say is...she doesn't have to roleplay lemon-scented lube with her character for this to work.