Katawa Shoujo Forums

Good post, Guest Poster.

Though my words that you quoted were mostly a clarification of what I meant by "wanting to hear bad news", in response to Oddball being oddly literal about it.

It's kinda like asking for directions. If it's one person (and especially if he's younger than you), he might admit he doesn't know how to get to address X. If it's a larger group and the person you ask doesn't know, he needs to save face in front of his peers and is guaranteed to pull an answer out of his ass.

Are you serious? I was aware that it happened, but I thought it was an extreme of Japanese-ness, not something bound to happen with the average group of passers-by. And let me guess, they don't feel bad about the trouble they cause you by misdirecting you, because in those circumstances there was no helping it?

BTW, you appear to know what you're talking about. May I ask what your basis is? Lived there?

Guest Poster wrote:getting back to the person who's terminal...that may be a good analogy for Lilly's situation. If a person knew he was going to die within a month, we could probably admire him if he decided that instead of immediately announcing it, he'd keep it to himself so he could make a few more wonderful memories with his loved ones instead of giving them a month of every-increasing emotional pain. Given Lilly's disposition towards her parents, she probably felt that her departure was as inevitable as an actual terminal disease and it was better not to cause Hisao and Hanako undue distress.

I have to say this doesn't convince me, and here's why: the dying person's relationships are already established, and his loved ones have bad news coming to them one way or another. He can't change that. Lilly, on the other hand, went full throttle into what at the time was merely some mutual attraction between her and Hisao. At a time she already knew about the summons (and, in order to apply your analogy, we might even assume she already knew she'd obey them), she started a relationship with Hisao, deceived him that it was something she wanted to last, allowing him to become invested, guaranteeing a broken heart at the end plus the knowledge that the previous weeks had been an illusion. She created this situation; it wasn't forced upon her, like a terminal disease.

The biggest wtf to me, really, was that she made him promise that he'd never leave her. While planning to leave him (or at least considering). Not sure how to even translate that into your dying person scenario.

I'm sort of willing to forgive Lilly for an inability to deal with the situation honestly, if either her upbringing, nature or culture imprinted her with a problem-avoidance tendency that made her procrastinate about telling Hisao for so long. If she wanted to tell him, but found it hard, and on top of that Hisao being obtuse and passive didn't inspire her to think it'll do any good. But I'm not willing to buy that as a deliberate decision that I'm supposed to consider admirable.

Are you serious? I was aware that it happened, but I thought it was an extreme of Japanese-ness, not something bound to happen with the average group of passers-by. And let me guess, they don't feel bad about the trouble they cause you by misdirecting you, because in those circumstances there was no helping it?

It's not an exclusive thing to Japan. "Face" is a concept that pretty much dominates society's actions in a large part of Asia. In addition to Japan, it's also prominent in China, Vietnam, Thailand and parts of India. I wouldn't say that when you ask a group of people for directions in that part of the world, you're guaranteed to either get a correct answer or a bs-one...that'd be a generalisation, but it's definitely something to keep in mind. It's more likely to happen with older people because:

- Younger people in Asia have been exposed to western mindsets more and are sometimes less concerned with face. Some of them actually envy people in the west for not having to keep it in mind all the time.
- In Asia, seniority automatically places you higher into the social hierarchy, so an older person having to admit lack of knowledge about something to a younger person is a double humiliation.

They probably do feel a bit bad about misdirecting someone, but like you said, in the context of that situation it would be seen as self-defense. Given how important face is, that's probably the best way to explain it.

BTW, you appear to know what you're talking about. May I ask how? Lived there?

Nope. Just a bit of on-line research. At some point in time I had a fanfic concept in the back of my mind and I needed a bit of a grasp on the traditional Japanese mindset. Nowadays there are a lot of sites dedicated on how to do business with Asian companies and several of them do a pretty good job at explaining some of the stuff that tends to baffle westerners.

I have to say this doesn't convince me, and here's why: the dying person's relationships are already established, and his loved ones have bad news coming to them one way or another. He can't change that. Lilly, on the other hand, went full throttle into what at the time was merely some mutual attraction between her and Hisao. At a time she already knew about the summons (and, in order to apply your analogy, we might even assume she already knew she'd obey them), she started a relationship with Hisao, deceived him that it was something she wanted to last, allowing him to become invested, guaranteeing a broken heart at the end plus the knowledge that the previous weeks had been an illusion.

The biggest wtf to me, really, was that she made him promise that he'd never leave her. While planning to leave him (or at least considering). Not sure how to even translate that into your dying person scenario.

I'm sort of willing to forgive Lilly for an inability to deal with the situation honestly, if either her upbringing, nature or culture imprinted her with a problem-avoidance tendency that made her procrastinate about telling Hisao for so long. If she wanted to tell him, but found it hard, and on top of that Hisao being obtuse and passive didn't inspire her to think it'll do any good. But I'm not willing to buy that as a deliberate decision that I'm supposed to consider admirable.

You make a good point. I guess admirable is a bit of a misnomer. It'd probably be more accurate to state that while Lilly's actions could be interpreted as betrayal, she didn't really mean any harm. She simply handled the situation the way she did because she didn't really know of another way to deal with it. Which is naturally a flaw, but it doesn't necessarily make her a bad person. I have no doubt that Lilly really did want her relationship with Hisao to last...it's just that she figured that what SHE wanted didn't matter.

Ehhh, Lilly is not my favorite route either. She seems very Mary Sue to me, a kind of person who you admire from afar. Someone who is gentle and kind, yet knows when to put her foot down. That's... kind of boring.

Rin is an artist with her head in the clouds. Emi is the fastest thing with no legs, with a hint of lemon. Shizune is the deaf president with a best friend that has drills on her head. Hanako is a timid girl with a dark and fiery past. Lilly is a blind girl with some family issues.

She would be a very good person irl no doubt. I would love to make friends with someone like her. However in context of a visual novel, she's a bit boring.

yummines wrote:Ehhh, Lilly is not my favorite route either. She seems very Mary Sue to me, a kind of person who you admire from afar. Someone who is gentle and kind, yet knows when to put her foot down. That's... kind of boring.

Rin is an artist with her head in the clouds. Emi is the fastest thing with no legs, with a hint of lemon. Shizune is the deaf president with a best friend that has drills on her head. Hanako is a timid girl with a dark and fiery past. Lilly is a blind girl with some family issues.

She would be a very good person irl no doubt. I would love to make friends with someone like her. However in context of a visual novel, she's a bit boring.

I agree with everything you said except the Mary Sue part to me Lilly is a deconstruction of the Mary Sue archetype (So still kinda a Mary Sue but not really) still found her boring though.

Ehhh, Lilly is not my favorite route either. She seems very Mary Sue to me, a kind of person who you admire from afar. Someone who is gentle and kind, yet knows when to put her foot down. That's... kind of boring.

I think you need to look up what the Mary Sue type really means.

A Mary Sue is a perfect character without any flaws whatsoever who effortlessly skips through a story without ever needing any help whatsoever because her perfection allows her to solve any problem within a matter of minutes and who is automatically adored and looked up to by anyone she meets.

- Perfect character without any flaws: Lilly has plenty of flaws. They're just more subtle than Hanako's shyness or Shizune's pushiness. Lilly is sometimes too non-confrontational for her own good to the point where it makes the situation worse. Her central conflict plays into this. She also tends to worry over and mother those closest to her a bit too much. It's her way of showing affection, but the targets of her affection don't always appreciate being mothered and misinterpret it as pity or her looking down on them. When something bothers her, she tends to internalize it rather than seek help from others. In addition to the conflict of her own route, this also puts pressure on her friendship with Hanako...the latter feels that while Lilly does a lot for her, she can't do anything for Lilly. And then there's her minor flaws like not being a morning person, getting hooked on stuff a little too quickly and having the occasional bouts of laziness.

- Effortlessly skips through a story without ever needing any help solving any conflict: Akira word-for-word mentions that while Lilly is a strong person, she DOES need help from time to time and she certainly didn't solve the conflict in her own route without a whole lot of effort and agonizing.

- Automatically adored and looked up to by anyone she meets: Heh, a certain student council president would beg to differ. That said, Lilly IS rather popular but not the center of Yamaku's universe. Her best friend does look up to her, but is still bothered by a few things about her. Oh, and the deconstruction is the fact that Hisao actually does treat her somewhat as a Mary Sue...that is, he leans on her and completely relies on her, believing she can handle everything that comes her way. As we know, that didn't work out so well. Relying on and leaning on a REAL Mary Sue is pretty much the equivalent of a permanent invulnerability cheat.

So yeah...Lilly's totally a Mary Sue.

One of the things that always stood out to me as interesting in Lilly's route is that there are a few times she starts to the convenience store by herself, then Hisao ends up catching up to her and she relys completely on his help.

There's even an exchange between them where Hisao basically says, "Aww. It was nothing," and she tells him "It might not have meant much to you, but it was a lot to me." I always felt those small moments really told you alot about Lilly. Even when she knows she needs help, she doesn't go looking for it.

Well hey, some people are attracted to the demure, gentle type of person. So I've no problem with that. It would have been nice if they'd showed a little of the things she goes through as a student rep though. Having to be diplomatic, or solve a particularly tough problem. Something to demonstrate that she's not just a pretty face.

If it weren't for Hanako's involvement in her story, I probably would have found her boring too. Just the fact that she practically adopted her shy, hurt neighbor earns her my respect and love.

Whenever I hear the word "deconstruction", I reach for my gun.

Guest Poster wrote:

Ehhh, Lilly is not my favorite route either. She seems very Mary Sue to me, a kind of person who you admire from afar. Someone who is gentle and kind, yet knows when to put her foot down. That's... kind of boring.

I think you need to look up what the Mary Sue type really means.

A Mary Sue is a perfect character without any flaws whatsoever who effortlessly skips through a story without ever needing any help whatsoever because her perfection allows her to solve any problem within a matter of minutes and who is automatically adored and looked up to by anyone she meets.

- Perfect character without any flaws: Lilly has plenty of flaws. They're just more subtle than Hanako's shyness or Shizune's pushiness. Lilly is sometimes too non-confrontational for her own good to the point where it makes the situation worse. Her central conflict plays into this. She also tends to worry over and mother those closest to her a bit too much. It's her way of showing affection, but the targets of her affection don't always appreciate being mothered and misinterpret it as pity or her looking down on them. When something bothers her, she tends to internalize it rather than seek help from others. In addition to the conflict of her own route, this also puts pressure on her friendship with Hanako...the latter feels that while Lilly does a lot for her, she can't do anything for Lilly. And then there's her minor flaws like not being a morning person, getting hooked on stuff a little too quickly and having the occasional bouts of laziness.

- Effortlessly skips through a story without ever needing any help solving any conflict: Akira word-for-word mentions that while Lilly is a strong person, she DOES need help from time to time and she certainly didn't solve the conflict in her own route without a whole lot of effort and agonizing.

- Automatically adored and looked up to by anyone she meets: Heh, a certain student council president would beg to differ. That said, Lilly IS rather popular but not the center of Yamaku's universe. Her best friend does look up to her, but is still bothered by a few things about her. Oh, and the deconstruction is the fact that Hisao actually does treat her somewhat as a Mary Sue...that is, he leans on her and completely relies on her, believing she can handle everything that comes her way. As we know, that didn't work out so well. Relying on and leaning on a REAL Mary Sue is pretty much the equivalent of a permanent invulnerability cheat.

So yeah...Lilly's totally a Mary Sue.

Regardless, to me Lilly seemed like too much of the ideal kind of person for a romantic story. Sure nobody is perfect, and having a perfect character ruins the story. From TVTropes:
"In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature."
Nobody said the Mary Sue has to be absolutely perfect, just over-idealized. To me, Lilly seems pretty damn idealized. She's kind, gentle, can do quite a few things even though she is blind, is beautiful, etc etc. Anyone would want a wife like Lilly, or at least a friend. Any kind of major flaw she has is overshadowed by the fact that she is such a likeable person.
Sure, I like Lilly too but she doesn't stand out to me too much.

yummines wrote:Any kind of major flaw she has is overshadowed by the fact that she is such a likeable person.

You just described the entire cast.

Been going through all the posts and took all the things you said in Guest Poster.
By that logic and reasoning, the only thing Lilly could've done was telling hisao they could not have a realtionship because [insert white lie here].
Going from her upbringing and unquestionable loyalty to her parents she already knew she'd leave Japan.
Her tendency to keep bad news to herself would incline her to not start a relationship in the first place.
And to finish it up, being the loving and caring person she is she would SPARE Hisao the 2nd broken heart in under 6 months.

Hell, tell her you already have a lover. You have coodies, i don't care. Oh here's a thought, maybe you could actualy tell him you're leaving! Hisao might have been a tad on the low side in her route but i'm sure he would've been able to cope with that. And at the end of it he would've made a great friend to boot!

As is though, only Suriko knows the truth. Was it pure Lilly we saw. Or was it the combination of Lilly + cultural behavior + Japanese norms(her upbringing). Either way.

Keeping bad news to yourself is never a good thing in the longrun though... Heck, if Japan breached the cliché its economy might actually start going somewhere again (for those who did not get it, their mindset is outdated. Respect and honor's all good and dandy. But there are limits....)

Xanatos wrote:

yummines wrote:Any kind of major flaw she has is overshadowed by the fact that she is such a likeable person.

You just described the entire cast.

A lot of people might consider Shizune to be the "odd one out" in that list
Not me though

But Yummines is right, even without getting to know all the girls well, there are always some negatives you can find. Lilly... does being blind count?

Merloficus wrote:And to finish it up, being the loving and caring person she is she would SPARE Hisao the 2nd broken heart in under 6 months.

That was impossible unless she stayed. She did the next best thing and delayed breaking him as long as possible.

Xanatos wrote:

Merloficus wrote:And to finish it up, being the loving and caring person she is she would SPARE Hisao the 2nd broken heart in under 6 months.

That was impossible unless she stayed. She did the next best thing and delayed breaking him as long as possible.

Exactly the longer she waited the closer they grew the harder the break was going to be. She only hurt Hiaso worse by waiting.

By that logic and reasoning, the only thing Lilly could've done was telling hisao they could not have a realtionship because [insert white lie here].
Going from her upbringing and unquestionable loyalty to her parents she already knew she'd leave Japan.

Actually they're relationship started before she left for Scotland the first time.

When they go to buy Hanako her present, they talk about it being a date and how they'll have to do that again sometime.

Also, we have no idea when Lilly was told she'd have to go back to Scotland or when she decided that she would. All that information she keeps to herself. It's entirely possible that they had their wheatfield scene and then a few days later Lilly got a phonecall about having to come home. We don't know any different.