Katawa Shoujo Forums

Kutagh wrote:Eh, as far as I am aware, it was very straightforward: Come to me in 'meatspace'. We'll see who is more disruptive. I don't see any threats in it either, I'm not threatening you with violence am I?

Don't make it look like I've said or implied stuff I haven't said nor implied.
As far as I can see, you are the one talking in circles...

I concede that I am simply jumping to the conclusion that the majority of past experience of such phrases would indicate.
BUT... I trust my own judgement on such things more than the words of a stranger. I've found in the past that strangers tend to be very casual liars.
In any case, I'm not interested in any sort of competition of disruption in meatspace. In case you didn't already gather, I don't like meatspace disruption. I also don't like people staring at me for the way I choose to dress, but that is somewhat unrelated.

On the other hand, if you wanted to throw down and make a fight of it, that would be a different matter. I quite enjoy that sort of thing, even if I'm not terribly good at it. In fact last time I was in a fight, Johnny had to get in the way because the other guy kept getting riled up because I laughed every time he hit me. I was laughing so hard I couldn't fight back, so I was getting kicked about quite a lot. It was incredibly comical, in a self-fulfilling sort of way. I was annoyed afterwards that my glasses got broken though. That really was a nuisance. I got a cool scar though, so it was worth it.

SotiCoto wrote:Trollin' like a boss

So while you're here, how do you 'think'? At least in the conscious, looking-at-my-own-thoughts sense, since we've pretty well covered that actual brain activity doesn't come out like language.

Kutagh wrote: You've interpreted it incorrectly. I'm consciously thinking in words, just not in my own voice or any voice I know but in a 'neutral' voice.

I stand corrected, thanks.

Which made me a little bit interested, what does that 'neutral' voice sounds like? I mean, like words flying around? Kinda' curious :3

Megumeru wrote:

Kutagh wrote: You've interpreted it incorrectly. I'm consciously thinking in words, just not in my own voice or any voice I know but in a 'neutral' voice.

I stand corrected, thanks.

Which made me a little bit interested, what does that 'neutral' voice sounds like? I mean, like words flying around? Kinda' curious :3

Thinking out loud without speaking, that is the best description for it I think.

WorldlyWiseman wrote:So while you're here, how do you 'think'? At least in the conscious, looking-at-my-own-thoughts sense, since we've pretty well covered that actual brain activity doesn't come out like language.

It changes depending on the data I need to access, process or otherwise utilise.
Can't accurately put it into words, honestly. I only think in words when I'm communicating directly, like right now.... and while doing that, my mind is analysing various possible approaches, word-selections, choices, backtracking, readjusting, testing, predicting... and filtering out instinctual interference.
Actually, to be honest, filtering out instinctual interference takes up an awful lot of it. Is a chronic nuisance. Probably got the worst case of cognitive dissonance of anyone I've ever known... but... meh. Such is the way of things. I tend to disacknowledge nature's attempted "productive" input into my behaviour wherever possible.

When I'm not communicating it is more like a selection of four-dimensional rapid-playing video feeds that constantly get backtracked, tweaked and readjusted on the fly... running simulations of whatever scenarios I need to visualise in order to discern most probable outcomes... all while trying to keep the more primitive aspects of my brain from interfering, with limited success.

That is the short, iffily worded version, in any case.

Interestingly, this question came up in the newspaper. There it was answered by a deaf person (one born and bred as a Deaf, learning Sign Language early on). He said that he thought in Sign Language and then if needed translates everything.

Kutagh wrote:Interestingly, this question came up in the newspaper. There it was answered by a deaf person (one born and bred as a Deaf, learning Sign Language early on). He said that he thought in Sign Language and then if needed translates everything.

Yeah, it seems that it depends on how much contact the deaf person had with spoken language prior to losing their hearing. If the person was born deaf, that is, if they are prelingually deaf and are taught Sign language early in their lives, they'll think in Sign. That's really absolutely amazing, it's impossible for me and, I think, for any hearing person to even try to imitate a thought process that goes by imagining, say, a "gun hand" (thumb raised and index finger pointing ahead) to think of the concept of shooting.

That made me curious, I don't think it was ever mentioned in her route, except for Jigoro saying that he hired tons of tutors for Shizune in her infancy, but that doesn't necessarily mean she was born deaf. Have the devs ever mentioned whether she was or not? That'd explain the way Hisao describes her mind functioning so differently and thinking in a different, "comparmentalized" way.

"Recent research has shown that language is integral in such brain functions as memory, abstract thinking, and, fascinatingly, self-awareness. Language has been shown to literally be the “device driver”, so to speak, that drives much of the brain’s core “hardware”."

Doraleous wrote:That's really absolutely amazing, it's impossible for me and, I think, for any hearing person to even try to imitate a thought process that goes by imagining, say, a "gun hand" (thumb raised and index finger pointing ahead) to think of the concept of shooting.

We discussed earlier in the thread that you think in concepts, not sentences, unless you're making a point of "talking" to yourself in you head. I don't think, then, thinking in Sign is any different to thinking in any other language, spoken or otherwise.

That made me curious, I don't think it was ever mentioned in her route, except for Jigoro saying that he hired tons of tutors for Shizune in her infancy, but that doesn't necessarily mean she was born deaf. Have the devs ever mentioned whether she was or not? That'd explain the way Hisao describes her mind functioning so differently and thinking in a different, "comparmentalized" way.

"Recent research has shown that language is integral in such brain functions as memory, abstract thinking, and, fascinatingly, self-awareness. Language has been shown to literally be the “device driver”, so to speak, that drives much of the brain’s core “hardware”."

We don't know when Shizune became deaf. Perhaps when she was very young to an illness, before language? To say her personality or way of thinking is due to "thinking in sign" is... unusual. I would say it's more down to a lack of social contact as a child which, while due to her deafness, could just as easily happen to a hearing person who was similarly isolated. Do you get what I'm saying? It's hard writing this sort of stuff out on my stupid phone when the text input is lagging and I can't both see the entire page and type into it at the same time. Basically, anyone could have a personality like Shizune.

metalangel wrote: We discussed earlier in the thread that you think in concepts, not sentences, unless you're making a point of "talking" to yourself in you head. I don't think, then, thinking in Sign is any different to thinking in any other language, spoken or otherwise.

I don't think it's possible to think in concepts. Even if it's thinking in concepts, these concepts have to follow a code, and I'm referring to this very code. It is not different in essence, but from what I've read it is different in form. You can't live in the abstract, you are not Rin

"Sacks writes of a visit to the island of Martha's Vineyard, where hereditary deafness was endemic for more than 250 years and a community of signers, most of whom hear normally, still flourishes. He met a woman in her 90s who would sometimes slip into a reverie, her hands moving constantly. According to her daughter, she was thinking in Sign. "Even in sleep, I was further informed, the old lady might sketch fragmentary signs on the counterpane," Sacks writes. "She was dreaming in Sign."

And even then, I think that deaf people also make a point of talking to themselves in their heads every now and then, so how do the prelingually deaf do that? Imagine someone signing in their heads?

"Similar to how an “inner voice” of a hearing person is experienced in one’s own voice, a completely deaf person sees or, more aptly, feels themselves signing in their head as they “talk” in their heads."

I can't say I myself think in concepts, I'm 100% of the time using sounds to remember these concepts, all the time I can't help but remember the group of phonemes I attached to these concepts (and I always have an inner voice saying them). Concepts only are not enough, some born-deaf people are left mentally handicapped because they weren't taught sign early in their lives and therefore the language never came to them, the code was never infused in their heads. How it feels to exist like that, it's hard to say, but here's a quote from a late learner:

"“Before my teacher came to me, I did not know that I am. I lived in a world that was a no-world. I cannot hope to describe adequately that unconscious, yet conscious time of nothingness. (…) Since I had no power of thought, I did not compare one mental state with another.”

Furthermore, in more unfortunate times when deaf culture was not very developed, deaf people were forced to try and communicate in spoken language (the nearly-deaf or progressively-deaf ones), those people also experienced learning difficulties and were sometimes labeled as mentally challenged (a common thing done to deaf people in the past), that was because of their difficulty in attaching the sounds/phonemes they were not familiar with to the concepts so that they could grasp the meaning.

So, all of this leads me to think that the code is very important and it must have an influence on how you think, how you organize things in your head. I think they do think in a sort of different way, at least the symbols inside their mind that correspond to the concepts are different and it must be sorta different how they go from the initial gathering to the conclusion.

metalangel wrote: I would say it's more down to a lack of social contact as a child which, while due to her deafness, could just as easily happen to a hearing person who was similarly isolated. Basically, anyone could have a personality like Shizune.

Yeah, I think you're right there, one's language doesn't determine their personality, I was just extrapolating

What we (or at least I proposed this stance) actually said was that we subconsciously think in concepts, your conscious translating those concepts into your preferred language. The language you use is just a representation for what concept you really meant. Myself for example, I think in two languages, Dutch and English. I sometimes switch between the languages in my thought process without realizing (until I realize it of course ). It is for me just a representation of what I conceptually want to 'say' in my mind.

Furthermore, in more unfortunate times when deaf culture was not very developed, deaf people were forced to try and communicate in spoken language

Ah yeah, the so-called 'sitting on your hands' time. Sign language used to be strongly discouraged in those times. Glad I don't live in those times....

@Shizune's personality: I think there are two parts to it: Indeed the socially isolated part but not just that. I also think that the Deaf have a tendency to try to control the situation more often (at least I know I tend to try it, I rarely leave my house unprepared ) and her socially isolated situation extrapolated it.

No, I agree that having some code in your head is vital. What I meant - and what "concept" perhaps wasn't conveying - is that you can't think in words and sentences all the time because it would take too long! Driving a vehicle, cutting up food, you think about what you're doing but you don't put it into words in your head. Likewise, you don't consciously say "grab the door handle and then pull this door" inside your head, but your mind puts together all the information needed to perform those actions on the fly.

However, when you sit and really think about something (like me at work trying to write this so it makes sense) then I likely will phrase it into sentences and listen to them in my head before writing them. In that situation, yes, you will use some form of language in your head.

We're retracing a lot of stuff from earlier in the thread here but for me, I would do this in English. I would imagine Kutagh does it in Dutch. If I am practicing some ASL with a DVD or website then I will try to think in ASL. I'm not fluently bilingual so I can't quite grasp the concept of being able to quickly take in one form of language and interpret it into another (though it's what I'm working on). Dreaming in sign? I don't doubt it. I do worry, though, I already talk in my sleep!

metalangel wrote:No, I agree that having some code in your head is vital. What I meant - and what "concept" perhaps wasn't conveying - is that you can't think in words and sentences all the time because it would take too long! Driving a vehicle, cutting up food, you think about what you're doing but you don't put it into words in your head. Likewise, you don't consciously say "grab the door handle and then pull this door" inside your head, but your mind puts together all the information needed to perform those actions on the fly.

However, when you sit and really think about something (like me at work trying to write this so it makes sense) then I likely will phrase it into sentences and listen to them in my head before writing them. In that situation, yes, you will use some form of language in your head.

We're retracing a lot of stuff from earlier in the thread here but for me, I would do this in English. I would imagine Kutagh does it in Dutch. If I am practicing some ASL with a DVD or website then I will try to think in ASL. I'm not fluently bilingual so I can't quite grasp the concept of being able to quickly take in one form of language and interpret it into another (though it's what I'm working on). Dreaming in sign? I don't doubt it. I do worry, though, I already talk in my sleep!

Actually, as I said I switch all the time between Dutch and English in my mind. When thinking of what I want to say here on the forum, it's thought in English, not Dutch nor translated. Guess it has to do with growing up with English games and learning English relatively early on, as well as being immersed into English literature and online communities... (I read next to no Dutch books anymore, they're mostly translated junk I prefer the English originals).

As for the concept and acting without thinking: It is the conscious and subconscious aspects: Driving, cycling, walking, breathing, it is deeply ingrained into your brains how to do that. There isn't an active thought process required for doing those actions, using your conscious. Your subconscious, which thinks purely in the concepts and actions aspect, automatically triggers the right actions, like a reflex. But for example swinging a golf club for the first couple times, you're thinking of the actions you have to do, swing the club backwards to a L-shape, turn your shoulders until the club is almost straight up (or less than that if you want a less powerful shot), swing your shoulders and hit the ball, turn after hitting the ball. After a while, some of those actions become automated, for example the turning. Your subconscious recognizes what you should do next and automatically executes that action. Habits die hard, you know?

On a slightly related sidenote, I'm looking into doing for my bachelor a minor in Sign Language. It's gonna take some effort to get it sorted, seeing as only one university offers Sign Language here and not as a minor anymore as far as I can see, but I think I can arrange something Am a bit excited about it, waiting to hear from my uni's exam commission first to see if they're totally against it (studyadvisor said it'd likely be accepted) and then gotta contact that uni. I'll keep you posted

By the way, for those interested into the Deaf culture, this should give you a small insight: We are Deaf

How did you think when you were a baby?

Sarah wrote:How did you think when you were a baby?

"Hm, it seems that my bowels have started their movement, and there's nothing I can do about it. Thankfully, I have my diaper with me. But, I can't just STAY here with poop in me pants, that's disgusting. I should let someone know that I need a change of clothing, as I'm not fully capable of changing myself yet"
- WAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH
"That should do the job"

This is, admittedly, a fascinating topic. If I may weigh in my point of view here...

I am a hearing person. Perfectly healthy in the auditory department. And yet, this 'inner voice' most of you seem to refer to is pretty much non existant for me. I can, of course, conjure a voice in my 'mind's ear' so to speak, if I so desire. But I would have to be familiar with that voice in order to do so. Think of it has having a text-to-speech program in one's own head. Normally, however, I tend not to affiliate any 'voice' to my thoughts. It's just words; English words, read as a series of characters grouped into meaningful chunks. It's as if none of them even have a pronunciation for me to voice, it's just a word that looks like whatever that particular word looks like.

That being said, do not misunderstand me to mean I see the words I think either. While again, I can certainly do that conciously, as with the voices, that is not the default setting. So then we reach a problem: words are represented as either a visual stimulus or an auditory one. So if neither of those things are how I think words, then how do I think them? It cannot be as taste, touch, or smell; words do not have those properties (with the excpetion of Braille, though I know none of that and is thus not applicable). So then we arrive at the inevitable conclusion that it must be the case that I am thinking in concepts. Which, according to previous discussion, is essentially impossible (consciously anyway).

I certainly don't believe myself to be thinking in concepts only. There is something I recall one of my lecturers saying earlier in the year; "the invention of communication, be that spoken, written, or whatever other form, granted humans the ability to express themselves, while simultaneously placing a finite limit on the things we can express". I definitely think in English. But not written or spoken English. Just English, devoid of any definite form. Somehow. And that often causes me to have difficulty expressing what I think, because there isn't language to match it. To use a somewhat unrelated example, I compose music; however, I only do so in my head, because the sounds I (or any instrument) am able to make in the real world do not match the sounds in my head. This frustrates me greatly.

Not sure where I was going with this. Looking over it, it becomes increasingly tangential as time wears on. Feel free to disregard my contribution if you feel it adds negligible content to the discussion. Fare thee well, sirs and madams.
Cheers, BlackWaltz.