Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

[ArazelEternal]

She was going to tell him, but wanted to wait until she was 100% certain of her decision. She wasnt going to just disappear all together. She wanted to wait until she was ready before she told anyone else.

[Megumeru]

I don't think Lilly's motherly nature was part of Hanako's social problem.
Truth be told, I haven't entirely dedicate myself on fully analyzing Hanako's character as a whole--she's stronger than she looks, just insecure and lacking confidence. There's more to be uncovered in her character, I just haven't revisit her arc as often as I do Shizune, Lilly, and Emi's arc for fanfic references and personal joy.

What I'm looking here is Lilly's motherly nature in general, whether it is her 'true' character or just a facade she put up so she could feel good about herself knowing someone else needs her (Hanako and Hisao in the case of both Hanako and Lilly's arc).

Here's a quick overview of her character as what we know:
- she procrastinates (ACT I, as evident between the first clash/conversation between Shizune and Lilly)
- she's blind (ACT...screw you, why would she be in this game if she's not?)

now ask yourself, if you assign someone who procrastinates a lot to finish a project that will take about say...3 days to complete would you trust that person to finish it on time and in top-notch quality? I won't, instead I'll give it to someone who could finish it in the allotted amount of time AND in top-notch quality.

Now add 'blindness' into the equation. Does a procrastinator became 'reliable' after he/she was blind? No, right? Instead she becomes a lot more unreliable. This is my case-of-argument in Lilly.

What I'm starting to see and assume is that her 'motherly tendency' to be her facade, her mask to escape from that reality of 'being unreliable'. Better yet, she has Hanako--that timid, scarred girl with a ticking time bomb of emotional outburst that could explode anytime; standing in as her friend would make her look 'reliable' to someone AND make you look especially respectable and knight-like, right? Now we add Hisao in the mix, and he too is having his own problem about fitting in to the school full of disabled people (he himself couldn't swallow the fact that he is now considered 'disabled'), wouldn't it be nice to stand in to be his friend, help him fit in, and make it so he relies on you more than ever.

By the time her arc start, you are made to believe that Lilly is that all-perfect 'Yamato Nadeshiko' with her motherly nature that is very much reliable. I'm beginning to conclude that Lilly is the best manipulator I have seen, second to Kira from Death Note.

the only time I see her remove this facade of her is at the end of her arc, specifically the epilogue--even then it's still sugary sweet, and I'm guessing Hisao still hasn't learn everything about Lilly. I'm beginning to believe that she is too absorbed in her own facade that she doesn't want to let that go (returning to her family meant she is back to here original state of being 'unreliable' and being 'cared' by her parents, cousins, sister, etc.), and thus decided to stay inside--still unsure about that, however. Possibility is abound.

speaking of which, did Lilly or Hanako ever mentioned how they met? Or did they just 'meet and become friends'?

My points is this:
1. She's not being selfless by hiding the fact from Hisao--she's either trying to run away from it, pocket-veto it, or her procrastination kicking up.
2. Her 'Yamato Nadeshiko' character she portrays is a facade of her character that--by the time KS starts--is well buried and may take more than careful reading and rigorous analysis of her route and character to dig up.

Let's get this straight: THEY ARE IN A RELATIONSHIP, PEOPLE
would you prefer a girl who would hide the most crucial thing that could potentially crush your relationship in a blink-of-an-eye, or someone who would be honest about herself and not leave you in the dark--even if it meant sending you away. Also, Hisao's heart isn't THAT weak. Did Hisao stumbled, curled up, and died in Rin's ending after she told him to forget about her in her neutral ending? No, right? And what's the one thing that Lilly told Hisao and each other about? "don't worry/fret about my disability?" Yeah, Lilly said that--and Hisao reinforced that in her route. Considering how his arrhythmia only occurs when Hisao paced himself too HARD (e.g. challenging a track star [dumb move], stopping a track star dead in her track with an open chest, taking the AGGRESSIVE lead in ero-scene), so a word from Lilly saying 'I'm going to Scotland and may never return' isn't going to kill him.

Hell, he survivedhis and Shizune's ero-scene in the student council room and he is taking the lead in the latter part.

She was going to tell him, but wanted to wait until she was 100% certain of her decision. She wasnt going to just disappear all together. She wanted to wait until she was ready before she told anyone else.

She was already certain about leaving for Scotland by the time Akira told Hisao. Why would she call Hisao, tell him to hump his way to the park, and tell him "hey, me and your girlfriend is going to Scotland forever so you should breakup since I did that with mine"? If Akira told Hisao "Me and your girlfriend is going to Scotland, but she's unsure." I don't think Akira even need to ask Hisao to meet her privately and would just tell him directly since whether she goes or not is certain.

Instead she'll go: "I'm going to Scotland, Lilly may be or may not be going."
Even then, would she buy TWO tickets to Scotland if Lilly suddenly say "I'm not going"? That's a waste of money, and considering the flight from Japan to US is about 1,600USD for one adult, you can start guessing how much are two tickets from Japan to Scotland. She's decided to go to Scotland to see her family, there may be some regret in her heart but she is %100 sure (note that the NEUTRAL ending of Lilly shows that she just leaves and Hisao ends the relationship right there. So much for 'long-lasting relationship')

You don't get plane tickets if you order it a day before the flight you know. You get them if you order them a week-two weeks before--and that is procrastination to the max (add with the cost you will have to spend, any smart and logical person would order it one-three months before the flight). This means Lilly has about approximately 2-3 months before her flight to tell Hisao about it. Did she? I don't believe so--Akira told him, then Hisao pestered her about it and she confessed. Procrastination, or escapism? Think about it.



now let's see this in a military term:
which one is better - a General who would hide the facts about a suicide mission to his men (knowing they will die) and send them anyway, or a General who will be vocal and open about the possibility that it IS a suicide, cause panic, but nonetheless receives a number of willing men who would finish it to the end knowing what it is.

Think about it.

[rydiafan]

She was going to tell him, but wanted to wait until she was 100% certain of her decision. She wasnt going to just disappear all together. She wanted to wait until she was ready before she told anyone else.

she had no problem telling him and hanako in hananko's arc ... so why in her own ??

[Mirrormn]

She was going to tell him, but wanted to wait until she was 100% certain of her decision. She wasnt going to just disappear all together. She wanted to wait until she was ready before she told anyone else.

she had no problem telling him and hanako in hananko's arc ... so why in her own ??

You're confusing your trips to Scotland. Hanako's route ends before Lilly even returns from her first trip to Scotland, whereas her permanent departure occurs a few weeks after her return from that first temporary trip.

[Guest Poster]

it is the love interest of the intellectuals, so you might as well leave that clique.

You make an excellent point about both Shizune and Lilly and yet you kinda word it in a very awkward manner that kinda makes it sound like Shizune is the love interest for smart people, which sounds kinda condescending and elitist. Maybe I should elaborate with my interpretation:

Shizune is an intellectual through and through. She generally thinks of things only in rational ways, tends to judge people mostly on what they can or can't do (or how they can or can't contribute to her various projects) and tends to discount any circumstances that cannot be explained with cold hard logic.

Lilly is an empath through and through. She generally thinks of things with a clear view of how others will react to it, tends to judge people by their general attitude and demeanor and is sensitive to social cues, which is all the more impressive since she's blind and can only react to things like inflections, tones of voice and people's breathing.

Obviously these two are on two extreme ends of the same spectrum. And it kinda causes problems for them both.

Shizune's difficulty with empathy is probably a far graver flaw than her bossiness, pushiness or agressive go-get-em attitude. Even with Misha speaking for her in her cheerful up-beat tone, Shizune still comes across as cold. Her complete inability to empathize with Misha's plight is probably more responsible for the rift between the two than the rejection itself was and she's never really succesful in developing that part of herself, instead relying on Hisao's more developed people skills to fix the falling out. This same character trait is also cause for the student council being as understaffed as it is.

Lilly, on the other hand, sometimes has too much empathy for her own good. Her empathic skills allow her to come across as warm and caring to just about everyone, but she sometimes goes too far with it and comes across as pitying and mothering, which can annoy both Hisao and Hanako. Her strong sense of empathy is also responsible for her extreme reluctance to tell Hisao about her parents' summoning even though she really should have brought it up.

Still, when dealing with people, empathy often plays a much more important part than cold hard logic, as long as you're not too much lacking in the latter. This isn't just true for the students of Yamaku (which is why Lilly is popular and Shizune is considerably less so), but also for fans. Like it or not, people don't "decide" to like someone, they either do or don't and don't always use checklists with criteria to determine why they like or don't like somone. And because humans are hard-wired this way, empaths like Lilly have the edge over intellectuals like Shizune.

What about Lilly? You only speak to her mother in the phone, but did you learn anything about Lilly from her?

Likewise, Shizune doesn't really discuss her family either and she's been around them far more.

her 'HASD'(abbreviated) contrasts her manners and upbringing (Catholic school background. If you've been in one, you know how strict the laws there are--especially in dorms)

In reality, someone from a strict upbringing showing strong sexual urges after being let out into the world really is no contradiction whatsoever. Teen pregnancies tend to be highest among the teens who took so-called "chastity vows".

and one other thing Hanako in both Lilly's and her own arc only got better socially when Lilly wasn't around to mother her ( prove me wrong Lilly fans ) so i have question if Lilly's motherly nature was part of Hanako's social problem

No, it isn't. Before Hanako met Lilly, she didn't have any friends at all and her life was worse in almost every aspect. Lilly being an emotional crutch to lean on was valuable to Hanako, but Lilly's friendship alone wasn't enough. Lilly states in her own route that Hisao's friendship allowed Hanako to develop further. However, without Lilly, Hisao and Hanako would have never befriended each other to begin with. Hanako flees from her first meeting with Hisao and looks outright panicky when he asks Lilly if it's okay to join them for lunch. It was because of Lilly providing safety that Hisao was able to spend enough time with Hanako for her to start opening up to him. In Lilly's route, it was the combined friendship from Lilly and Hisao that made Hanako comfortable enough to then take the next step to join the newspaper club. In her own route, it was Lilly's efforts (arranging the pool club outing and calling Hisao on his white knighting) that contributed vitally to Hanako and Hisao becoming a couple. For short, Lilly's motherly nature provided Hanako with safety from which she could take her next steps towards recovery, but due to her own shortcomings, Lilly's friendship alone wasn't enough. However, I really don't think Hanako's complete recovery was something that anyone, no matter who, could have contributed to on his or her own. It was always more than one person with the addition of Hanako's own efforts.

now ask yourself, if you assign someone who procrastinates a lot to finish a project that will take about say...3 days to complete would you trust that person to finish it on time and in top-notch quality? I won't, instead I'll give it to someone who could finish it in the allotted amount of time AND in top-notch quality.

She did finish it in time AND in top-notch quality, she just didn't finish with any time remaining. In Lilly's defense, her class' plans were extremely ambitious, too much so in retrospect. She admits later the class underestimated the workload.

What I'm starting to see and assume is that her 'motherly tendency' to be her facade, her mask to escape from that reality of 'being unreliable'. Better yet, she has Hanako--that timid, scarred girl with a ticking time bomb of emotional outburst that could explode anytime; standing in as her friend would make her look 'reliable' to someone AND make you look especially respectable and knight-like, right? Now we add Hisao in the mix, and he too is having his own problem about fitting in to the school full of disabled people (he himself couldn't swallow the fact that he is now considered 'disabled'), wouldn't it be nice to stand in to be his friend, help him fit in, and make it so he relies on you more than ever.

By the time her arc start, you are made to believe that Lilly is that all-perfect 'Yamato Nadeshiko' with her motherly nature that is very much reliable. I'm beginning to conclude that Lilly is the best manipulator I have seen, second to Kira from Death Note.

Okay, let me stop you right there before you start theorizing that Lilly wrote Hisao's name down to give him a heart attack, then erased his name with the Death Eraser as a convulated plot to bring him to Yamaku and have healthy adolescent sex with him. You've made some good arguments in your posts before, but there's no grand conspiracy here. Lilly's very much like Emi...a person who sometimes smiles when she's not feeling cheerful in order to avoid making people worry about them. It's something a lot of people do...PARTICULARLY IN JAPAN and isn't a sign of a manipulative personality.

First of all, her mothering isn't a fascade...like I said before, Lilly's an empath...she tends to feel and identify with the feelings of others and when she empathizes with others too much, she becomes overly concerned and mothering. Mothering is very much her way of showing affection to those she cares about and she does it with every person who is particularly dear to her; Akira, Hanako and Hisao...even if all three are occasionally annoyed by it. What IS a fascade SOME OF THE TIME is her appearance of always being in control of the situation. This is a by-product of her past...her parents went away leaving her and Akira behind and Akira feels this was because they couldn't deal with Lilly's blindness. Akira then had to raise Lilly herself for several years. These circumstances caused Lilly to feel like she was a burden to her sister and ever since, it's been part of her personality to try and avoid being a burden to others at all costs, even when sharing her burdens would allow others to become closer to her or allow them to help her make a better decision.

Also, Hanako's not a ticking timebomb. She only snaps at Hisao after he visits her at the worst possible time and says the worst possible things to her at this worst possible time. And even then, she stops her outburst the moment he's out of the room.

Lilly's white knighting isn't a distraction from her own problems or a way to feel better about herself like Hisao's is in Hanako's route. Lilly herself is both popular and confident...she doesn't need to boost that confidence by artificial means. Her mothering is simply part of her empathic personality.

speaking of which, did Lilly or Hanako ever mentioned how they met? Or did they just 'meet and become friends'?

Coincidence, somewhat. Lilly moved into the room next to Hanako's about a year before Hisao started attending and Hanako overheard Lilly offering comfort to a classmate who was feeling down. Needing some comfort herself, Hanako approached Lilly soon after, though at first, it was really merely Lilly talking and Hanako just sitting there and merely listening and drinking tea. It took her some time to open up to Lilly a bit.

Even then, would she buy TWO tickets to Scotland if Lilly suddenly say "I'm not going"? That's a waste of money, and considering the flight from Japan to US is about 1,600USD for one adult, you can start guessing how much are two tickets from Japan to Scotland. She's decided to go to Scotland to see her family, there may be some regret in her heart but she is %100 sure (note that the NEUTRAL ending of Lilly shows that she just leaves and Hisao ends the relationship right there. So much for 'long-lasting relationship')

Lilly herself states money isn't a problem...she gets a pretty large allowance apparantly.

Lilly WAS conflicted, even at the time Akira approached Hisao. Not conflicted enough to have a change of heart of her own, but conflicted enough to change her mind if Hisao had challenged her decision. In fact, it's possible this was what Akira expected Hisao to do and that's why she called him. But Hisao had become too used to letting Lilly handle everything, so he went along with her decision without arguing with her. After Lilly left, Hisao realized that this was his mistake and that he should have been more persistent in supporting her when she obviously needed it.

Look, I realize you prefer Shizune over Lilly and that's fine. I'll even agree with you that Shizune is somewhat underrated and Lilly is somewhat overrated. But you're starting to sound a bit too much like Kenji with the Lilly analysis. Lilly's not perfect, she has flaws, mostly ones that take a bit of effort to notice, but she's still largely how she's portrayed and while she's not any less flawed than the other heroines, she's not any more flawed either.

You're confusing your trips to Scotland. Hanako's route ends before Lilly even returns from her first trip to Scotland, whereas her permanent departure occurs a few weeks after her return from that first temporary trip.

This.

[Mirrormn]

Look, I realize you prefer Shizune over Lilly and that's fine. I'll even agree with you that Shizune is somewhat underrated and Lilly is somewhat overrated. But you're starting to sound a bit too much like Kenji with the Lilly analysis.

Exactly what I was thinking. This speculation about Lilly being manipulative and conspiratorial has very little basis in the actual text of the game.

[rydiafan]

She was going to tell him, but wanted to wait until she was 100% certain of her decision. She wasnt going to just disappear all together. She wanted to wait until she was ready before she told anyone else.

she had no problem telling him and hanako in hananko's arc ... so why in her own ??

You're confusing your trips to Scotland. Hanako's route ends before Lilly even returns from her first trip to Scotland, whereas her permanent departure occurs a few weeks after her return from that first temporary trip.

i know that but lilly still told him about it ..... i wonder why in hanako's route is it a couple of weeks but in lilly she is moving back there did the aunt die in lilly route ?? i cant remember

[Guest Poster]

You're still confusing the two:

- Lilly's first trip: Only a week or 2. Reason was because her aunt was sick and she announced it in BOTH Hanako's route and her own. It was the reason the birthday party was held earlier in both routes.

- Lilly's second trip: Permanently. (in the neutral end) Reason was because her parents asked her and Akira to move back in with them. She didn't tell Hisao about this in her route, which is the main conflict near the end. In Hanako's route, this is not an issue anyway because Hanako's route ends before Lilly comes back from trip 1 and by that time Hisao and Hanako are boyfriend and girlfriend anyhow.

[Mirrormn]

i know that but lilly still told him about it .....

No, Lilly's second trip to Scotland never comes up during Hanako's route. Lilly doesn't say anything about it when Hisao calls her for help on Hanako's birthday, and then she does not even appear in the story at all after that.

i wonder why in hanako's route is it a couple of weeks but in lilly she is moving back there

I don't really understand what you mean by this. Lilly's first trip to Scotland occurs for the same reasons and for the same duration of time in both Lilly and Hanako's routes.

did the aunt die in lilly route ?? i cant remember

I don't think there's ever any conclusive information about the health of Lilly's aunt, even in Lilly's route.

[rydiafan]

i know that but lilly still told him about it .....

No, Lilly's second trip to Scotland never comes up during Hanako's route. Lilly doesn't say anything about it when Hisao calls her for help on Hanako's birthday, and then she does not even appear in the story at all after that.

i wonder why in hanako's route is it a couple of weeks but in lilly she is moving back there

I don't really understand what you mean by this. Lilly's first trip to Scotland occurs for the same reasons and for the same duration of time in both Lilly and Hanako's routes.

did the aunt die in lilly route ?? i cant remember

I don't think there's ever any conclusive information about the health of Lilly's aunt, even in Lilly's route.

damnit i gotta replay lilly route now lol ....
but until lilly was informed of what happened to hisao at the air port ( at least in the good ending never saw the bad one ) she wasn't comming back to the school ( in lillys route ) ..... for all the story tells us she was only suppose to be gone a couple weeks (in hanako's arc) unless im mistaken ( wouldn't be the first time im wrong lol )

[rydiafan]

both sides have passion ... and im shocked there isn't more flaming on this topic ... i love a good debate

[Wander]

Thanks to "Guest poster" for responding to that Megumeru post... When you're reading into text, you should think whether you are going past what the author actually intended, which is really easy when doing this kind of character analysis. Drawing somewhat different conclusions is fine of course and bound to happen with different readers. Saying stuff like Lilly is "manipulative and unreliable" just might be a step taken too far when you have to cherry-pick certain elements from the story to support this and ignore the factors that speak against it by claiming that to be just a facade.

I think it's pretty obvious that all these girls were written to be basically good at heart. I'm currently reading through Shizune's route to see if I can get into her personality any better by doing that.

[rydiafan]

well there are facts about each person which can't be debated ...
lilly is motherly and didn't tell hisao about scotland
shizune likes to compete and turn everything into a game/challenge

now it how we see these thing that makes us makes like/hate one or the other ... for me lilly didn't handle the trip well at all ... and how can u trust her to be honest with you/hisao in the future ( i still don't see how ppl can't over look the " im going for good but im not gonna tell you " and still like lilly that much ) i guess im just missing the point of lilly popularity ( and i don't think it something as dumb as blonde hair blue eyes and boobs ... ppl are not that shallow i hope )

[ShadeHaven]

... and how can u trust her to be honest with you/hisao in the future ( i still don't see how ppl can't over look the " im going for good but im not gonna tell you " and still like lilly that much )

In my opinion, it's Lilly's procrastination that keeps her from telling Hisao. She knew it would hurt him either way, but didn't want to deal with the guilt. The fact that Lilly says she was just waiting until she was sure is just a weak cover for her procrastinating.

[rydiafan]

... and how can u trust her to be honest with you/hisao in the future ( i still don't see how ppl can't over look the " im going for good but im not gonna tell you " and still like lilly that much )

In my opinion, it's Lilly's procrastination that keeps her from telling Hisao. She knew it would hurt him either way, but didn't want to deal with the guilt. The fact that Lilly says she was just waiting until she was sure is just a weak cover for her procrastinating.

So do you honestly believe that Lilly would have told Hisao without her Akira's help ?? ( Maybe Akira knew Lilly wasn't gonna tell Hisao herself )