Katawa Shoujo Forums

Paddy, I could probably debate you almost endlessly since I disagree with you all the way, however, I will try to avoid doing that here too much since it's not the right place. I'll just adress two things I noticed about you in general. First of all, I noticed that you seem "stuck" in your mind, so I feel I must give you this quote from Nietzsche: "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies." Please consider this. Secondly, you come over as a virgin, and one who has been mislead about sex. Take it from a married man... sex between humans is a world on it's own, that's far "wider" than you seem to understand. I think this is also why you are lamenting what happens in Hanako's story, but it is not something to be lamented at all.

And now to go back on topic. I think that Hanao's story is better for her than Lilly's. In Lilly's story she does complete what she was already setting out to do, that is making it possible for her to live an independent life. However, in her own story, she makes much faster progress. Yes, she has more temporary setbacks, mostly due to Hisao's messing up with his white knighting, and Misha and Shizune's well meaning but always incredibly bad timed meddling. The reason I thil Hanako progresses the most in her own arc is because there, she is able do something that gives her a unique boost of confidence: she is able to save Hisao.

Yes, that's right. You have to remember that in Hanako's story, everything is different from what it seems. The characters, their feelings, and of course, the what happens between them. On the surface it's "good hearted boy saves shy, broken girl". In reality it's more like "intelligent, good hearted girl saves arrogant boy". Yes arrogant. Because that's what is Hisao's problem with Hanako. His selfish pride keeps him from accepting the fact that they love each other, and that they must become equals. Hanako 's shy, yes, but that is merely a protective persona to keep those who would harm her at bay. It is not who she is at the core. She warms up to Hisao very soon, and more often than not, while she is content to let Hisao say the first words inof the conversation, it's her actions that cause actual progress between them to happen.

How for Hisao's arrogance and pride, where do I see that? When he left the hospital, his friends and love had abandoned him. He feels down, but unwilling to acknowlegde it and wants to run away in books. When he meets Hanako, he feels he found a bird of a feather and that's why he stick with her. And she feels the same of course and reciprocates. And then of course, they fall in love with each other, wordlessly, unaknowlegded, but love it is certainly! Simply enjoying chess and tea together... in a deep wordless love that doesn't even enter their conscious minds yet.

But, the problem with Hisao is, that from the beginning he looks only at the outside prson aof Hanako. The shy, defensive persona she shows to others as a shield... and then of course there comes is the biggest temptation of all for him... Wwos, she is very shy... Hey, at least I'm not so shy as her ... I want to protect her... I must save her... etc. But of course, and this he doesn't acknowledge, what he also feels is selfishly "Whew! At least, I am better off than her! At least, I'm better than her!" To see the culmination of his arrogance, just look at how he speaks to Hanako in the bad ending. He simply humilliates her.

In other words, his idea of helping Hanako is mostly prideful conceit. He's a mess himself, his wounds are fresh, he's not solidly grounded himself, he doesn't know Hanako at all, so he's in no condition to help her. Furthermore he's just a lazy kid who cruised though life soly on his talent, never having to make serious efforts before.

Hanako's had 10 years to deal with her problems and is already making the decisive steps forwards. She's intelligent and worked vey hard to get where she is, all by herself until she met Lilly. Bu far, she is the more resillient, and determined. Of course, she is glad that Hisao wants to be supportive, but she knows very well that that is not enough for their relationship to bloom. She is the one who is insightful enough to see that it's Hisao who needs her help. That's why she puts up with most of his white knighting. Then, when Hisao lessens his white knighting, in his heart he has realised that he loves Hanako and that he must become her equal. But his pride won't let him. In stead, he makes a bit of distance from Hanako and decides to tackle his own problems all by himself... so he can become an even better white knight!

I think the point where Hanako realises Hisao's problem completely is when he shows her his scars. Yes, he instinctively makes the right action. In his heart he loves Hanako, and with this gesture, his subconcious wants to show Hanako that he wants to rely on her. But his words are prideful. He says wants to show Hanako that he will solve his problems (and Hanako's too, that's his subtext). Hanako gently, and lovingly touches his scar... She knows hisao want to come down to her level, but can't. He's stuck. Now she doesn't call it pride, but she knows... he sees me as something below him... He will leave, because his pride will drive him away. I have to snap him out of this. I have to show him that we are on the same level.

And then she decides to go all in, or to use chess terminology, to sacrifice her queen for a chance at helping Hisao. She knows very well it's only a chance, it might fail, it might backfire. But she loves Hisao, she doesn' t want to loose him, and it pains her to see him like that. She's not even sure that Hisao actually loves her. But she knows that words won't work. It needs to be actions. Just like how when Hisao showed his scars and how this helped them get closer to eachother even if the words were wrong. Now she will not only show her scarn, but one up him and give him her all, herself. Hisao is a sincere boy, that she knows, and the act of sex will shake him up mentally, hopefully enough to finally break his pride.

And when the situation presents itself, she queitly leads him to her room, and opens her body completely to him, and quieltly leads Hisao into herself. She endures the physical pain, because she mentally enjoys this. She mentally enjoys finally being able to help someone for a change. That is why she smiles when it is over. And Hisao, he feels the physical pleasure, but mentally he is in pain. His pride is cracking... he's fucking the girl he imagined to be so high and above of. He needs her, his body needs her, he can't deny it... His body can't deny he's at her level. His mind, though is still is confused, and that is why the sex is of course so jarring for him.

But when he wakes up, his confusion takes the upper hand. What he should have done , of course, when Hanako came back with breakfast was to take her hand, and tell her that he loves he, needs her, relies on her, and is so grateful for all the times he helped her. Not juts now, not just last night, but all the times they met. But he can't. His pride is cracked but not broken. Hanako notices this and probably concludes that her gambit may have failed... Until the confession at the fountain... when Hisao finds out Hanako's motivation he is /shamed/ and his shame breaks his pride. Also, his view of Hanako is lifted, he can respect her courage now. Hanako cries because she thinks she lost, but Hisao can break out in tears to and admit he needs Hanako. And their love can now bloom.

In otherwords: Hanako knew very well what she did when she had sex with Hisao. It was a daring, risky, courageous act of love. I'll leave it at that since this is getting too long.. :p I'll just end by saying that Hanako's path is very dear to me, because it reminds me of my own life. I feel I must say that the situation depicted in Hanako's path is realistic, and also, that I think that what the characters did was actually the very best that could have happened in such a difficult situation, I daresay, even much better than what happened in my reality. Playing KS, and especially Hanako's path finally made me realise my own mistakes, and I slowly trying to amend them.

That's an interesting theory, and I definitely see some truth in it, but I think it ascribes too much agency and premeditation to Hanako's actions. It also paints Hisao in too poor of a light. Hisao was arrogant, yes, but only unintentionally so; by his reasoning, he was just trying to be helpful, and that desire to help was fundamentally driven by empathy, not pride. Hanako helped him overcome that arrogance and pride, yes, but it's a huge stretch to assert that she knew Hisao's exact state of mind and concocted a plan based on it, given how little social experience she's had in life and how little she communicates with Hisao. Hanako was troubled by how she thought Hisao saw her; knew she had to do something to change his viewpoint; and, out of desperation, chose sex to effect that change, despite not really being sure about how that choice would pan out. That's about it with regards to her intellectual mastery of the situation.

I agree with Mirrormn. You're giving Hisao way too little credit and Hanako way too much. Hanako's not quietly guiding Hisao along a certain way. She was just as lost as he was. Despite the 10 years, she (by her own admission) spent most of these years either trying to survive or having her life "on hold" as she put it. She still has HUGE insecurity issues, even bigger than Hisao's. I think what happens during the arc is not so much that Hisao saves Hanako or Hanako saves Hisao, but Hanako and Hisao save themselves and because of that, save each other.

Hisao was seemed arrogant, but like Mirrormn said, it wasn't pride...it was actually insecurity. He covered up his own anxiety about not being able to get his life in order by trying to get Hanako's life in order for her. She was partially a distraction for him. It wasn't a concious thing and the moment Lilly called him on it, he started making an effort to focus on his own life again despite still seeing Hanako as a ward of some sort. Hanako, while having perfectly noticed Hisao's white knighting attitude, completely misinterpreted his sudden focus on his own life as drifting away from her and that ultimately led to her clumsy attempt to draw him back in by sleeping with him. It wasn't an act to help Hisao on her part. (and I don't think she emotionally enjoyed it...she was scared, but wanted to go through with it because she didn't want to lose Hisao) It was a desperate act from a girl to keep a guy close who she didn't really understand any better than he understood her, yet felt a strong emotional connection to.

You need to make a forum account, mysterious guest poster.

t wasn't an act to help Hisao on her part. (and I don't think she emotionally enjoyed it...she was scared, but wanted to go through with it because she didn't want to lose Hisao)

I think she enjoyed the fact that she was having sex, that's something she probably never expected to do in her entire life, and the fact that it was with somebody she liked and it made him happy, but the actual sex itself she didn't care for.

It's one of those things that she didn't enjoy, but is glad she did anyway.

That's a very good point.

Well, after thiking a bit, I will agree that I did exaggerate Hanako's virtues and Hisao's vices in my theory. This is though, because I felt that in this thread and elswhere she is serously being underestimated and misunderstood. Misunderestimated even?

Mirorrm, I can even almost agree with what you said there, apart from two points I want to nuance: I think that while Hisao's arrogance and pride was indeed unintentional , but I still think that as the relationship goes on, especialy towards the bad ending, it gets the better of him. It's mostly due to Hanako that he's able to snap out of it. But that's perhaps just because I made mistakes like that in my life. I find it's easy to start with good intentions towards a person and end up with looking down on them.

The second point where I disagree more strongly is that I think Hanako didn't act out of despair. Yes, she felt as tough Hisao was slipping away, and she knew she had to do something relatively urgently. So a sence of urgency, yes. But if you look carefully you'll see that she doesn't actually have sex with Hisao out of the blue, like she would do if she was really desperate. It was after Hisao's showing his scar, which did prove useful. I think that it's only a small step for a smart young lady like Hanako to think something like "If I not only reciprocate showing my scars, but also go much further by having sex, that might be the best way to change the way he sees me." And it happened right after Hisao's attempt to open up to Hanako, which is too well-timed to be coincidence. Then she must have felt "now he's opening up, here's my chance!" So, I don't see despair, but rather a stroke of loving inspiration caused by an urgent situation. Perhaps my personal experiences are coloring my views...

Guest poster... yes, after reconsidering, I'd say they mutually saved each other. Hisao makes the first move, and Hanako follows up with a move of her own. Sometimes Hisao is most skillful and sometimes Hanako is. The chess metaphor is aptly applied here. I disagree about the desperation though, as I said before. I think you're forgetting that she loves him already at this point. Of couse she doesn' t want to loose him, but there's more. She wants him to be happy too. And that is why...

Oddball, I agree with you, I would say even stronger she was happy to make someone she loves happy. And she was hopeful that it will have the intended effect. Add she could feel some confidence about herself too. After all Hisao was attracted and aroused by her body, no matter how scarrred it was. I think she must have felt something like being beautiful again for the first time again after the accident. That little heartfelt smile afterwards was just so full of meaning to me.

One reply to Paddy's confusion "why didn't he asked/thought what was wrong":
after undressing, Hanako says to Hisao to don't say anything, so he probably throught questioning her would be a bad idea

Mirrormn wrote:That's an interesting theory, and I definitely see some truth in it, but I think it ascribes too much agency and premeditation to Hanako's actions.

Guest Poster wrote:I agree with Mirrormn. You're giving Hisao way too little credit and Hanako way too much. Hanako's not quietly guiding Hisao along a certain way.

...Bozhe moi...
I also never said Hisao was being arrogant, or that Hanako was scheming.

I'm saying neither of them knew what the Hell was going on exactly. Hanako had no plans. Hisao had no ideas.
But Hisao would have picked up on "something", like he did when he went to the park and asked "how should I interpret that?". And Hanako would have been rather frank about it, like she was in the park with Hisao.

He did notice an "uncomfortableness" about the atmosphere after she'd stripped, right? That's all I'm attributing to him. Not arrogance. Not pride. Just barely sense enough to know something had changed in the air.

And if he were to ask, it'd be in the sort of way a husband might ask a wife, or a son might ask his parents upon rolling out of bed exhausted, brain still bogged with the fog of just waking up, "...*yawn* hey, do you know what time it is...?" Completely clueless, and asking because he figures he should.

Hanako was troubled by how she thought Hisao saw her; knew she had to do something to change his viewpoint; and, out of desperation, chose sex to effect that change, despite not really being sure about how that choice would pan out. That's about it with regards to her intellectual mastery of the situation.

Guest Poster wrote:She was just as lost as he was. Despite the 10 years, she (by her own admission) spent most of these years either trying to survive or having her life "on hold" as she put it. She still has HUGE insecurity issues, even bigger than Hisao's. I think what happens during the arc is not so much that Hisao saves Hanako or Hanako saves Hisao, but

I'm with you. I agree with you. I am in accord with you both on this point.

I didn't take Hisao for arrogant at all. He is just as confused as Hanako is. I get that.

That's ultimately why he asked Hanako what was going on in the park. Not because he was white-knighting, or was a proud, smarmy bastard, but because he was confused. We can all agree on this, right?

Now I can concede that he was probably acting on impulse. I get that. Having sex with Hanako was not something either of them consciously were sure they wanted to do.

That same impulse, though, might have caused him to question her motives - not because he suspected anything, and not because Hanako's elaborate ruse was detectable. Hanako had no elaborate ruse.

For the same reason he had sex with her, and the same reason he asked her to come to the park, I hypothesise he might also have asked her right then and there in the bedroom: "What am I to make of this?". Or some similar words. He might have done any of those things because he was genuinely confused and really had no idea what to do, and neither did Hanako.

They were feeling for each other in the dark. In a room with no one else. Neither of them could see very well, but they were both trying to find and reach out to each other.

Hanako caught a glimpse of something that she hoped was a part of him, and ran to grab him. It happened to be his crotch.

Hisao, just as confused, might well have asked "Hanako, why did you reach for me there?" (to which she would reply, "because it's the only part I could see") as well as he might have allowed to her... tickle him, then ask that.

Do you guys see what I'm saying? Yes, they were on the same level. Yes they were both confused. And that is why I think it is just as likely Hisao might have asked "what does this all mean?" (and he did, but only to himself as first). Because that's what confused people do. they ask what the heck is going on. Hanako did not at all have to be more clever than Hisao. I'm sure they were probably both wondering "What the heck is going on?".

And I wonder why they never asked. Since they were both blind, you might say.

Oh well. It's (moot).

kuniqs wrote:One reply to Paddy's confusion "why didn't he asked/thought what was wrong":
after undressing, Hanako says to Hisao to don't say anything, so he probably throught questioning her would be a bad idea

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...maybe.

Beoran wrote:Please consider this. Secondly, you come over as a virgin, and one who has been mislead about sex. Take it from a married man... sex between humans is a world on it's own, that's far "wider" than you seem to understand. I think this is also why you are lamenting what happens in Hanako's story, but it is not something to be lamented at all.

The act itself is a beautiful, wonderful thing. And when done with the right purpose, I completely and utterly agree, Beoran.

The intention behind the act is what I lament. If either the intention or the action had been different - though not necessarily both - I would not have had such a problem with it. And even then, it's not something that makes me doubt the greatness of this work. It's still very, very good. Even Hanako's storyline is, and I think little less of here and Hisao in that arc than I do of any of the rest.

Sex is meant to bring together, no? To unite. And I suppose, in a way, it did that. It's not supposed to drag two people together who don't really know if they love each other. I mean, yes, they themselves knew they loved the other. They just didn't know if that other loved them back. And I would not use sex to try and examine that.

The story isn't one of daring or pride in either of their cases. It's a case of two people groping around in the darkness, completely without confidence, utterly confused. Neither of them knew what they were doing. They knew themselves. But they didn't know each other. And when they bumped into each other, they fell crashing down. Then they picked themselves up and apologised.

Dear Lord, why am I still here?

That's ultimately why he asked Hanako what was going on in the park. Not because he was white-knighting, or was a proud, smarmy bastard, but because he was confused. We can all agree on this, right?

Hisao was always somewhat confused by Hanako. He never quite knew what she was thinking or was ready for. He mentions this a time or two. What he was in the park wasn't confused. It was frustrated. They'd been playing their little games too long and he just couldn't handle it anymore. Things had to change, or that was it for them.

For the same reason he had sex with her, and the same reason he asked her to come to the park, I hypothesise he might also have asked her right then and there in the bedroom: "What am I to make of this?". Or some similar words. He might have done any of those things because he was genuinely confused and really had no idea what to do, and neither did Hanako.

aaaaand we've gone over this before.

I can't see anyway that stopping Hanako and asking if she was really sure they wanted to have sex would have ended well for them. It puts Hisao firmly back in control again, suggesting that he knew what she wanted more than she did, and adds a nice layer of rejection right on top of that. No he doesn't want to have sex with her right now.

You also mention things being awkward between them. Things were often awkward between them and could have easily been dismissed as part of Hanako's shyness and lack of social skills. So she's acting awkward. I suppose a person that doesn't even like to be looked at would be a bit awkward after she strips down and tells you she wants you to look at her.

Pay, I was and am mostly formulating my own interpretation of the game. Which says more about me, I guess.

As for confusion, I think that happens when you have different conflictiong feelings and ideas you can't sort out. Hisao seemed confused indeed about why Hanako wanted to have sex with him. He was torn beteen lust, love and white knighting/pride, amongst others. But Hanako ... a girl like Hanako does't offer sex out of confusion, or on the spur of the moment. She's not Emi! Such a shy person whould definitely need to would likely to plan sex and prepare herself for it metally, and wait for the right occasion. Which is not the same as conniving or cunning. More like how you plan giving someone a surprise on their birthday. She plannd to give the man she loved a big surprise, in the hope that he'd get closer to her. And surprised he was! In the same way, Hisao could not have reasonably have rejected. It would be like rejecting a birthday present, but only 100 times worse.

Then at the fountain, yes he was confused, between love and white knighting and the akwardness... the pride was there too, although already lessened. He asked the question because he realised his inner conflict, and it was resolved in a good way, remorsefully in tears, having to admit his errors.

When we come to the point of sex you replied to separately, I already have partally answered. Let me add that I agree there was confusion, and yes, they did not know each other on a mental level. No, they did not know for sure the other loved them. But they did know the other was a friend. And moreover, intuitively, subconciously, emotionally, they felt a deep connection.

For this connection to be realised consciously, words didn't work for them. But actions worked for them, if only slightly. I think Hanako correctly felt that sex was the only course action that could have a reasonable chance of success. That was her loving insight. And then, because she loved Hisao, Hanako took a "leap of faith" and gave all she had to give, herself, all of herself to her dearest friend. And yes, her act and her love was not sensible, and not reasonable, and she had no way to know rationally that she would succeed. But that's exacty what I find so admirable! For I too, have seen what such love can do. Edit: And I hope it will happen for you all too!

Beoran wrote:Pay, I was and am mostly formulating my own interpretation of the game. Which says more about me, I guess.

As for confusion, I think that happens when you have different conflicting feelings and ideas you can't sort out. Hisao seemed confused indeed about why Hanako wanted to have sex with him. He was torn beteen lust, love and white knighting/pride, amongst others. But Hanako ... a girl like Hanako doesn't offer sex out of confusion, or on the spur of the moment. She's not Emi! Such a shy person whould definitely need to would likely to plan sex and prepare herself for it metally, and wait for the right occasion. Which is not the same as conniving or cunning. More like how you plan giving someone a surprise on their birthday. She plannd to give the man she loved a big surprise, in the hope that he'd get closer to her. And surprised he was! In the same way, Hisao could not have reasonably have rejected. It would be like rejecting a birthday present, but only 100 times worse.

Perhaps it started with her just revealing her scars - how would she know Hisao was doing to unbutton his shirt? - that sort of got the ball rolling, and after that she played by ear, just as confused as Hisao.

Yours is an interesting interpretation, too, though. Very interesting. And I know she loves Hisao that much.

But how did she know, then, that Hisao loved her that much as well?

I am starting to think, even at this point, and especially considering the religious and moral background of these people - modern, secular Japan - I think it safe to say there would be nothing wrong with Hisao accepting Hanako's gift - but only on the right pretenses. Although x knew x loved y, and y knew y loved x, x did not know y loved x, and y did not know x loved y. Therefore, how could they be rightly giving a gift to their other if they didn't know if that was an appropriate gift or not?

I like the explanation that "they didn't, and the authors intended it to be a badly given gift, which they would reconcile later".

When we come to the point of sex you replied to separately, I already have partially answered. Let me add that I agree there was confusion, and yes, they did not know each other on a mental level. No, they did not know for sure the other loved them. But they did know the other was a friend. And moreover, intuitively, subconsciously, emotionally, they felt a deep connection.

Not every deep connection warrants sex.

And yes, her act and her love was not sensible, and not reasonable, and she had no way to know rationally that she would succeed. But that's exactly what I find so admirable! For I too, have seen what such love can do. Edit: And I hope it will happen for you all too!

As long as the moral envelope isn't pushed, I think I'll be fine. I don't want a girl who is daring, intelligent, and drop-dead sexy, but who also has no respect for Catholic morality. I can't say that Hanako does or doesn't necessarily. But if they are unwilling to respect God and His commands, or respect His laws because I respect Him and His laws, I don't think I could have much of a relationship with such a person. I could love them as a friend, but I don't think it would be healthy otherwise.

Then again, God alone knows what's in my future.

Paddy wrote:
As long as the moral envelope isn't pushed, I think I'll be fine. I don't want a girl who is daring, intelligent, and drop-dead sexy, but who also has no respect for Catholic morality. I can't say that Hanako does or doesn't necessarily. But if they are unwilling to respect God and His commands, or respect His laws because I respect Him and His laws, I don't think I could have much of a relationship with such a person. I could love them as a friend, but I don't think it would be healthy otherwise.

Then again, God alone knows what's in my future.

70-80% of Japanese are Atheist. But culturally are tolerant of religion so long as you don't try to push it on anyone. Weddings for example can be either western in a church or Shinto. Burials tend to be Buddhist, as full body burial in western tradition is expensive, and not allowed in many places because of over crowding. It's one of the reasons there's family plots that hold the ashes of all family members in many graveyards.

Lilly is probably the only character in KS that has a religion, much less a western one.

Daitengu wrote:

Paddy wrote:
As long as the moral envelope isn't pushed, I think I'll be fine. I don't want a girl who is daring, intelligent, and drop-dead sexy, but who also has no respect for Catholic morality. I can't say that Hanako does or doesn't necessarily. But if they are unwilling to respect God and His commands, or respect His laws because I respect Him and His laws, I don't think I could have much of a relationship with such a person. I could love them as a friend, but I don't think it would be healthy otherwise.

Then again, God alone knows what's in my future.

70-80% of Japanese are Atheist. But culturally are tolerant of religion so long as you don't try to push it on anyone. Weddings for example can be either western in a church or Shinto. Burials tend to be Buddhist, as full body burial in western tradition is expensive, and not allowed in many places because of over crowding. It's one of the reasons there's family plots that hold the ashes of all family members in many graveyards.

Lilly is probably the only character in KS that has a religion, much less a western one.

No one said it would be easy.

As luck would have it, though, I'm probably going to be staying in the United States... so...