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I've had a quick skimread, because I've missed a lot of this debate, but I'd like to put forward my overall final idea on the topic.
-Shizune tying him up was a risky move, but ultimately he could have easily stopped it if he had wanted to

At the same time, that's him losing his virginity isn't it?
As much as I admittedly enjoy a little light bondage I've always thought that for such a big event as that, I mean both losing one's virginity and engaging with a partner for the first time, doing it vanilla is best. leave all the 'preferential' stuff for later on in the relationship.

Trogdor wrote:Also I had never heard "rumpy-pumpy" before. I'm stealing it.

The fact that I first found that term in the official Oxford thesaurus, as a sysnonym for sexual intercourse, makes it even better

Well, this went... places?

Munchenhausen wrote:I've had a quick skimread, because I've missed a lot of this debate, but I'd like to put forward my overall final idea on the topic.
-Shizune tying him up was a risky move, but ultimately he could have easily stopped it if he had wanted to

At the same time, that's him losing his virginity isn't it?
As much as I admittedly enjoy a little light bondage I've always thought that for such a big event as that, I mean both losing one's virginity and engaging with a partner for the first time, doing it vanilla is best. leave all the 'preferential' stuff for later on in the relationship.

I wholeheartedly agree on both points. It's your second point that's always turned me off from the scene (that, and the fact that it just strikes me as highly unlikely that two clueless virgins would indulge in bondage play during their first time). Not that it's really 'playful' when they both don't agree to it in advance, or at least have a mutual understand that this is something they're both into.

Holy shit, what have I revived? This has turned into quite the debate, and I now feel inadequate because I can't contribute as much as I'd like. Anyways, yes, Shizune's actions were uncalled for in that one scene. That still doesn't make her a bad character, as many in the thread have said she is.

Linkarena wrote:Holy shit, what have I revived? This has turned into quite the debate, and I now feel inadequate because I can't contribute as much as I'd like. Anyways, yes, Shizune's actions were uncalled for in that one scene. That still doesn't make her a bad character, as many in the thread have said she is.

She's a cornerstone character, actually. No other character provides so much for all the other characters to act against. The other cornerstone is Kenji, who also appears in all the other arcs as both mad comic relief and strangely wise friend (and possible murderer, spy, or Markus Zusak protagonist).

Linkarena wrote:Holy shit, what have I revived? This has turned into quite the debate, and I now feel inadequate because I can't contribute as much as I'd like. Anyways, yes, Shizune's actions were uncalled for in that one scene. That still doesn't make her a bad character, as many in the thread have said she is.

If you were referring to me, I never intended to insinuate that (sorry if that's how it came across )
I actually kinda like her, even if I don't like her route all that much.
I just felt, as you said, that her actions there were a little off.

Haha no worries, Link!
Shizune is just one of those characters that few really like, but those that do like her will fight for her tooth and nail

Munchenhausen wrote:Haha no worries, Link!
Shizune is just one of those characters that few really like, but those that do like her will fight for her tooth and nail

...what did I miss?

Wow, this thread has changed it's main focus so much it's kind of scary. Before I accidentally revived this, everyone was expressing hate for Shizune. But now it seems most just disagree with some of her actions. I will give you that Shizune does some weird, slightly uncalled for things. She's still one of my favourites though.

The Shizune arc gives you this, and it's the reason the arc is my favourite:

"I'll likely die younger than the average person. My life could unexpectedly burn out at any time. I don't have any time to waste, then. I want to live as much as possible. I also want to see other people smile from what I've made and done."

"Living vicariously through the happiness of others doesn't seem so bad. Feeling joy through another person's happiness doesn't seem like such a bad thing. It's the easiest way I can think of to draw out my own life, and give it distinction."

"Maybe this is the meaning that Shizune has found for herself, although it's just my theory. People find themselves alone often in their lives, and without direction."

"However, people can take refuge in moments of happiness. They can dot a person's life like stops on a train map. Or waypoints of memory on a long trail."

"These individual moments, on reflection, can give a person's life fulfillment. Every friend, and festival, and joyful meeting, and joyful parting."

"I want to be able to ask Shizune one day if I'm right. I want to spend the time I have with her. Finally, I want to make Shizune smile for herself."

I think there *is* something to the initial premise of this thread (ie, Shizune being disliked more because of Misha's existence as a character making it easy to compare the two to one another).

Misha's lack of a route, ironically, is part of what I think makes her as beloved as she is - you get all of the good with very little of the bad. Even in the bad you do see in the game, she's portrayed as very sympathetic. With a route, I think you'd have gotten a more well rounded look at who Misha is and a closer, more explicit look at her faults and flaws.

That said, Shizune attracts a lot of general dislike, so I don't think this theory explains the sheer volume of dislike she gets by itself.

I think there *is* something to the initial premise of this thread (ie, Shizune being disliked more because of Misha's existence as a character making it easy to compare the two to one another).

If anything, I think Misha makes Shizune MORE tolerable. As bad as she can come across in the game, just imagine what it would be like it Misha wasn't giving a more upbeat bubbly tone to her words.

That said, Shizune attracts a lot of general dislike, so I don't think this theory explains the sheer volume of dislike she gets by itself.

By the end of the first act, she's gotten into a fight with Lilly, scolded Rin and Emi, and intimidated Hanako and said she was her enemy. That's not counting repeatedly trying to trick and pester Hisao into joining the student council when he makes it fairly obvious he's really not interested. Shizune gets a lot of hate, but she brings a lot of it on herself.