Katawa Shoujo Forums

dunkelfalke wrote: Not the biggest maybe, but a large one. You see, I know that there is something wrong with me, and that I am a mess in my head. And that I forgot how to talk to people. And I am ashamed of myself. Worthless. A failure on almost every level. Who would even want to talk to me?
This is the way the train of thoughts goes.

The other fear is to be hurt again. You see, you don't start that lonely, you get there with time. You hide inside yourself after other people hurt you. But then, years get behind, you hurt a bit less, want to come out and find yourself unable to. It has been too long, you don't know anyone, you don't know anymore how to meet people in first place, you don't have that many opportunities anymore due to a full time job. Nobody cares about your nice personality hidden deep behind all the cruft and mess. And here we come to the third fear. The fear of change. You see, being lonely sucks, but when you have lived through it for long enough, you don't know anything else anymore. It starts being a comfort zone, for an extremely perverted sense of the word "comfort". It is far easier just to stop being yourself for a while reading a visual novel, living the lives of virtual personalities, with all the social interactions that come with it.

This probably describes it better then I did in my post, it's pretty much exactly how it is. It doesn't really matter how you got to that point though, it's the aftermath that's the same.

ps.: For someone that seems to feel quite alike to me, or at least knows how to say my own thoughts clearly, it's kinda interesting how we have the same girl as our avatar

dunkelfalke wrote:You get jealous of dogs, they howl to the moon and it seems to help.

They're howling to communicate with other dogs though, right? So I guess you could see it as their Internet or watering post. They might be simpler creatures than us, but they're social beings too.

dunkelfalke wrote:It is just there, after many years and many failures. You know it the same way you know tomorrow the sun will go up or the gravitation force will continue to exist.

It's a self-reinforcing pattern too, because one tends to give up on the first sign of rejection, and when it happens it reminds you of previous bad times. Right?

I think you describe persistent loneliness pretty well; I recognize a bit how I thought in a sad period of my life. You say you have a full time job though. How is the workplace, socially?

danyo wrote:ps.: For someone that seems to feel quite alike to me, or at least knows how to say my own thoughts clearly, it's kinda interesting how we have the same girl as our avatar

My inner Emi pushes me to stand up and fight against despair. Not as often as she used to, but she still does it sometimes. Need to replay her route again. I really wish I had her as a close friend.

AnonymousOfNorway wrote:It's a self-reinforcing pattern too, because one tends to give up on the first sign of rejection, and when it happens it reminds you of previous bad times. Right?

Even worse. You become so afraid of rejection that you raise standards for people that are impossible to fulfill, so you never give anything a chance in first place.

You say you have a full time job though. How is the workplace, socially?

Nasty. But it pays well, and, to be honest, I am not just glad to have a paying job, I love what I do. It is what I wanted to do since I was a kid. My job is probably the most fulfilling part of my life.

danyo wrote:It becomes also a lot worse when you've had a person like that, and lost them. I've been lonely ever since, and part of me prefers it now over that, because I feel that getting used to the lonelyness is a better option then getting hurt again.

I can empathize with that. In my case, I didn't have someone, but rather had someone in mind; the one person that could actually change my mere contentment into true happiness. But idolatry is disgusting, I came to realise, and unrequited feelings will eventually destroy you. And so I left her behind, and replaced them with loneliness. Gives you a sense of perspective, if anything else. Though, danyo, in your vulnerability, you'll eventually get taken away if you're not careful. :3

danyo wrote:And yes, I've had troubles communicating with others ( don't wanna go into it why ), and there isn't much I can do about it, after the break up, the little amount of friends I had, all went away aswell, because I became depressed, and pushed everyone away, not leaving me with anyone anymore. It's probably around 3 years now that i've pretty much been lonely, and there probably will be more years to come.

That's interesting; sounds a bit like what happened with me. Though, in my case, I was the one that left all my "friends" behind. As I've said before, the term "friend" is thrown around far too loosely these days. People you surround yourself with simply to be in the company of others and laugh together aren't your real friends if they never over up to you or can't even tell you what your fears are, or what your favourite colour is. When I realised that I had never felt more alone than I did in a crowd, I knew something needed to be done. And so, I decided to reaffirm by bonds with them by attempting to sever them, as a test. Extreme measures, I know, but I left them all behind. 4-5 years have passed since then, and no one has sought me out. It was a goodbye without words to everyone I had ever considered a friend in the past, and unfortunately, it seems as if it was for the best. Or perhaps we're still playing hide and seek. Who knows?

danyo wrote:All in all, being lonely is maybe not something you really choise for, but it does make you feel like the outside world can't really get to you anymore, and that's when you realise you're running away. I'm at a point though, that I'm oké with running for now, even though it's pretty miserable.

Only when you reach this point do you yourself become your greatest enemy. Dark thoughts strike you at the worst moments, leaving you with an inability to sleep.

Swoopie wrote:Why is it a knowledge? How do you know noone gives a damn? Is that a feeling? A consequence of too many people letting you down?

You say that being afraid of rejection is the biggest reason NOT trying to interact with people. How come? What are you afraid of other people might reject about you?

If I could give some insight, I'd say the inability to accept disappointment is more dominating than than the fear of rejection. Or perhaps it's a soul-destroying combination of the two. It's like seeing a place that's hiring, but you choose not to apply, even though you really want to. You don't know whether or not you'll get the job, but the possibility of failure completely destroys any resolve you had to go for it anyway. Like trying to make a friend, if the attempt does turn out badly, you'll be left even more dejected than when you started.

Swoopie wrote:That makes a bit sense, but do you mean an inability to find the right words? Or the belief that no matter what you say noone will understand?

When one tries to encapsulate their feelings into words, they often fail, even if only slightly. I speak of being understood without the use of words. Finding a person who can do that for you is very difficult indeed.

Swoopie wrote:I expected that this wasn't an easy subject to talk about, but you guys know how to describe the feeling pretty intensely... hope we can keep talking about this a bit.

I never expected talking about a fictional character from an eroge playing a game on the floor to shift to a serious discussion about loneliness, but I'm definitely not complaining that there's something meaningful to talk about. It's cathartic for some people to talk about their feelings, after all. Um. I mean "feels." Heh.

Dem feels, man. Both people with similar emotional issues and physical handicaps as the game's characters show up here - shows that the writes took their research at least a bit seriously.

Glad to hear you like your work, dunkelfalke. Being able to work with something you love and is good at is really a gift.

Have you tried seeking out some social arenas like sports clubs, game clubs, church activities, etc? Something you can go to once a week and just hang out with a common activity? A place where people don't demand anything from you, but where they'll miss you when you don't show up?

I don't remember how to be social, to be honest. I never was overly social in first place. Actually very much like Hanako before she was injured. And, I also wouldn't really know, what to do. All activities I've done during the last years were solitary. I am at loss where to start.

Actually I am already happy that I've found some people whom I can talk to over the internet, that is quite an achievement for me in my current situation.

^ Oh my. Everything in that post projects my current life perfectly.

"Are you a mind reader? Is that your disability? How unique!"

Raburesu wrote:That's interesting; sounds a bit like what happened with me. Though, in my case, I was the one that left all my "friends" behind. As I've said before, the term "friend" is thrown around far too loosely these days. People you surround yourself with simply to be in the company of others and laugh together aren't your real friends if they never over up to you or can't even tell you what your fears are, or what your favourite colour is. When I realised that I had never felt more alone than I did in a crowd, I knew something needed to be done. And so, I decided to reaffirm by bonds with them by attempting to sever them, as a test.

How do you know that they don't miss you? For me, friends are people I hang out with. Few of them are what I would call close friends; but they were casual friends before they became close friends. They're close friends because we can talk about anything that's on our minds, from the trivial to the deep, philosophical and painful things. Even with my closest friends, most of what we talk about is trivial, but even just unwinding by shooting the breeze or discussing the latest news or thing we saw on TV feels good.

Perhaps some of those people you dropped of the radar from miss you? At least noticed you were gone? In my experience, people are afraid to pry so if you stop coming they think "he's probably busy with something". If something bad happened just before you left, they might think "he probably doesn't like us", but since you just disappeared they maybe think you just had something better to do?

In fact, some of my casual friends from a club stopped coming to meetings recently. We were worried about them, and we miss them, but we did find out indirectly that they're so busy with their studies that they don't have time to take part if club activities. I don't think they noticed that we worried about them.

Now, I don't presume to know your circumstances, and some people are just jerks, but at least in my experience, getting close friends usually requires having some casual friends first.

dunkelfalke wrote:Actually I am already happy that I've found some people whom I can talk to over the internet, that is quite an achievement for me in my current situation.

Yeah, it is. You howled at the moon, and we howled right back at ya.

Raburesu wrote:I can empathize with that. In my case, I didn't have someone, but rather had someone in mind; the one person that could actually change my mere contentment into true happiness. But idolatry is disgusting, I came to realise, and unrequited feelings will eventually destroy you. And so I left her behind, and replaced them with loneliness. Gives you a sense of perspective, if anything else. Though, danyo, in your vulnerability, you'll eventually get taken away if you're not careful. :3

That sucks, even though I found love, I find nothing I can look back upon and be happy it happened, maybe it's better to not have felt love at all? Then you at least don't know what you're missing. And yes, I'm fully aware that I need to be careful, I do indeed see a psychologist, but, they can't magicly cure you in 1 2 3, I started going there after I had pretty much a emotional breakdown like a year ago... Everything came crashing down on me, my mind went crazy with emotions, it's not something I'd rather experience again.

Raburesu wrote: That's interesting; sounds a bit like what happened with me. Though, in my case, I was the one that left all my "friends" behind. As I've said before, the term "friend" is thrown around far too loosely these days. People you surround yourself with simply to be in the company of others and laugh together aren't your real friends if they never over up to you or can't even tell you what your fears are, or what your favourite colour is. When I realised that I had never felt more alone than I did in a crowd, I knew something needed to be done. And so, I decided to reaffirm by bonds with them by attempting to sever them, as a test. Extreme measures, I know, but I left them all behind. 4-5 years have passed since then, and no one has sought me out. It was a goodbye without words to everyone I had ever considered a friend in the past, and unfortunately, it seems as if it was for the best. Or perhaps we're still playing hide and seek. Who knows?

I pretty much learned this the hard way, like I said a bit lower in this post. When my relationship ended, I didn't seek any comfort myself, because I wouldn't know how. But it did make me realise no one tried to contact me either to see how I was doing, so I gave up on that aspect aswell, and decided it's best to just let those people live their own life.

Raburesu wrote:Only when you reach this point do you yourself become your greatest enemy. Dark thoughts strike you at the worst moments, leaving you with an inability to sleep.

Yeah, and the inability to sleep only helps bringing your mood down... Vicious circles all over the place huh?

AnonymousOfNorway wrote:

Raburesu wrote:That's interesting; sounds a bit like what happened with me. Though, in my case, I was the one that left all my "friends" behind. As I've said before, the term "friend" is thrown around far too loosely these days. People you surround yourself with simply to be in the company of others and laugh together aren't your real friends if they never over up to you or can't even tell you what your fears are, or what your favourite colour is. When I realised that I had never felt more alone than I did in a crowd, I knew something needed to be done. And so, I decided to reaffirm by bonds with them by attempting to sever them, as a test.

How do you know that they don't miss you? For me, friends are people I hang out with. Few of them are what I would call close friends; but they were casual friends before they became close friends. They're close friends because we can talk about anything that's on our minds, from the trivial to the deep, philosophical and painful things. Even with my closest friends, most of what we talk about is trivial, but even just unwinding by shooting the breeze or discussing the latest news or thing we saw on TV feels good.

Perhaps some of those people you dropped of the radar from miss you? At least noticed you were gone? In my experience, people are afraid to pry so if you stop coming they think "he's probably busy with something". If something bad happened just before you left, they might think "he probably doesn't like us", but since you just disappeared they maybe think you just had something better to do?

In fact, some of my casual friends from a club stopped coming to meetings recently. We were worried about them, and we miss them, but we did find out indirectly that they're so busy with their studies that they don't have time to take part if club activities. I don't think they noticed that we worried about them.

Now, I don't presume to know your circumstances, and some people are just jerks, but at least in my experience, getting close friends usually requires having some casual friends first.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, and I believe you, but in my case, when I had that break up, I was very depressed and lonely. I wasn't really looking for company, but all of my friends knew what happened, but afterwards, I realised, not a single one of the came over, or even send me a text to ask how I was doing, no one seemed to care.

AnonymousOfNorway wrote:

dunkelfalke wrote:Actually I am already happy that I've found some people whom I can talk to over the internet, that is quite an achievement for me in my current situation.

Yeah, it is. You howled at the moon, and we howled right back at ya.

Guess I'm with you guys on this one. It does feel nice to be able to type everything out, even if it's to total strangers. And even if not everything makes a lot of sense sometimes... Cause writing down feelings is kinda hard for me to do

As the Havamal says (the song of wisdom of the Nordic people) (here for full txt http://www.simnet.is/gardarj/havamal.htm):

47.
Young and alone on a long road,
Once I lost my way:
Rich I felt when I found another;
Man rejoices in man.

But also:

50.
The young fir that falls and rots
Having neither needles nor bark,
So is the fate of the friendless man:
Why should he live long?

In the first year of primary I was bullied by older kids. I was a bit of a sensitive, pampered child, who easily got upset, and also I didn't know many of the kids there form before in kindergarten, so I was a good victim for those looking to have fun at another's expense. I felt this like a great injustice. I even got punished mself because I counterattacted them physically, which made me feel even more hurt . My parents changed my from school after one year but the damage was done. What my dream-mind, my subconsious, my "heart" learned then was: some people are out to hurt me, and the rest doesn't really care. The world is against me.

And then of course once I believed this, I saw even the smallest of slights as an attack. To protect myself I started to build an armor against that terrible outside world. I think everyone in such a situation builds their own armor, that suits themselves the best. Hanako's case is shyness and running away (physically even). In my case it was a mix of shyness, anger, aloofness, reading books, studying science, retreating in my own world in my mind, and arrogance. Of course then the paradox of loneliness arises. You push others away because you don't want to get hurt, and yet you also know in your heart that you need others as much as you. As the Havamal says, when I was young and alone, I lost my way, but I could not find another, since my armor repelled them. Without friends, I felt like a broken, rotting tree.

Counselling, talking to nice people were all nice, but it did not fundamentally change me. For me only deemply emotional things such as art, or great life experiences can change my dream mind, or what I call the "heart". I had many such experiences, but I think that now, Katawa Shoujou, certainly with Hanako's was the slap that my heart needed to put a crack in that armor and begin to understand what was going on. I am tired of the numbness in my heart. I have decided that I will do what I can to get better. And I hope my story was of some use to anyone, but if not, then I hope you will find the expereince that will break you free.

Kind Regards,

B.

AnonymousOfNorway wrote:How do you know that they don't miss you?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't rule out the possibility that I was missed. In fact, I'm sure that I was. The problem is that I don't care. Like I said, the only people I need are those who need me. People who make plans amongst themselves right in front of you, ignoring your very existence and excluding you for no adequately explored reason are patently worthless, and not needed.

AnonymousOfNorway wrote:Few of them are what I would call close friends; but they were casual friends before they became close friends.

Logical. But for me, we're talking about people I've known since I was 5, with whom I was never able to get any closer to in over a decade. I suppose we never really tried, though. Also, I'm somewhat indifferent towards the matter. Everything we ever experienced together was frivolous.

AnonymousOfNorway wrote:Perhaps some of those people you dropped of the radar from miss you? At least noticed you were gone? In my experience, people are afraid to pry so if you stop coming they think "he's probably busy with something". If something bad happened just before you left, they might think "he probably doesn't like us", but since you just disappeared they maybe think you just had something better to do?

Me having something better to do sounds hilarious to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm overtaken by loneliness from time to time, but I'm also the type of person who enjoys being alone (probably due to being alone in the first place), so my social life is nonexistent, and everyone knows that. I left because I knew everyone would get the message. "Miss me? Come find me."

Now I realise that sounds a bit tempestuous and one-sided, but that's always how my feelings have been, I think. Albeit without the tempestuous part.

danyo wrote:That sucks, even though I found love, I find nothing I can look back upon and be happy it happened, maybe it's better to not have felt love at all? Then you at least don't know what you're missing.

No, that's only a sense of temporary mental weakness leading you to delude yourself. The more pain you experience, the more enlightened you become. I once told a girl that I can only understand others who have suffered, commenting on how it made me feel sad. She replied to me that it was a blessing. Having thought about it, I feel now that she was right.

danyo wrote:But it did make me realise no one tried to contact me either to see how I was doing, so I gave up on that aspect aswell, and decided it's best to just let those people live their own life.

Feelings akin to my own.

danyo wrote:Yeah, and the inability to sleep only helps bringing your mood down... Vicious circles all over the place huh?

Haha, in a twisted way, It feels nice to see someone smile at their own pain. I've done it myself many a time.

Raburesu wrote:

danyo wrote:Yeah, and the inability to sleep only helps bringing your mood down... Vicious circles all over the place huh?

Haha, in a twisted way, It feels nice to see someone smile at their own pain. I've done it myself many a time.

Well, I think it's one of those things I learned to do over time, keeping up a smile, even if it's a fake one. It helps preventing people asking questions you don't feel like answering, and keeps others from worrying over you too much ( though those people tend to be mostly family, since they are the only people I still sometimes see ).