Katawa Shoujo Forums

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:18 pm**

Brogurt wrote:
Bagheera wrote:I don't think a verbal question would have changed anything, except to get her even more worked up.
I bet you think that a hint of appreciation would have gotten her more worked up too.

Enough with the sniping already. if you want to contribute to the discussion do it, but otherwise give it a rest.

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:45 pm**

Wow, Brogurt. You just seem completely dedicated to making Hisao out as the worst rapist since Rance visited JAPAN.

Look, we're not discounting that Hisao was a jerk. He's a hormonal teenage virgin. Not being selfish in bed is a learned skill. We're also not discounting that Hanako was in a very bad place at the time and was taking some desperate measures.

Maybe the issue is that Hanako's first time is portrayed a little too. . . realistically. Speaking with my female friends, I can't think of any who have told me that their first time was as mind-blowingly amazing as popular culture likes to portray it as: for most of them, it was uncomfortable, somewhat painful, and honestly a little scary, (and if you don't think sex can be scary, H.R. Giger has made a career out of exploring the terrifying aspects of sexuality: penetration, vulnerability, the primal aspect of the act itself). Quite a few of them regret doing it the way they did. All but one, who was actually coerced into it, don't feel they were particularly traumatized by it.

What forgives Hisao in my eyes is that he's introspective enough to realize that he made a mistake afterwards. Hanako's willing to forgive him. He's willing to forgive himself. Their path is basically about breaking through that unhealthy codependent relationship into something much more healthy.

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:15 pm**

themocaw wrote:What forgives Hisao in my eyes is that he's introspective enough to realize that he made a mistake afterwards. Hanako's willing to forgive him. He's willing to forgive himself. Their path is basically about breaking through that unhealthy codependent relationship into something much more healthy.

And don't forget that both are willing to forgive her. That sense of equity is what drives the park scene and makes the whole route believable.

I think something we easily forget is that, if you act like a fragile, broken little thing, people will treat you that way. They won't know how else to act; they don't want to hurt you (particularly if they like you), and they might even want to help you (which leads to the whole white knight business). At some point you have to put your foot down and say "I am not a fragile, broken little thing, and I don't want to be treated like one!" But until you assert yourself like that people won't know that that's how they're supposed to act! It's to Hanako's credit that she finally discovered a way to do that, and to Hisao's that he could pull back and reach a sort of equilibrium with her one each knew how the other felt.

I guess the short version is that mistakes were made on both sides, but it all worked out because they wanted to understand one another and take each other's wnats and needs into consideration. Which is kinda how it's supposed to work.

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:39 pm**

Bagheera wrote:Yeah, you're right about that. Sounds like your efforts got the girls in question jack and squat, since they didn't put forth the effort to change their circumstances. That's rather the point: it's not about you. You can't fix people. The best you can do is offer help and support while they fix themselves.

You say that as if it's simple to change your circumstances. It's not. Based on my personal observations, if you're in a rut or an abusive relationship, chances are that you feel stuck and get used to being in that bad place because you've been in it for so long that you've forgotten that there's any other way to live. If you have the strength of will to extricate yourself from such situations, good for you. Many people don't. Stop assuming that everyone's like you or everyone's capable of being like you. It's an extremely arrogant and egotistical stance, because you're setting yourself up as some kind of standard by which the actions of others are measured.

Bagheera wrote:(Why are you hanging around so many physically and emotionally damaged women, anyway? Got something against healthy folks?)

No, but I do have something against people who have attitude problems or jump to conclusions. Like you, for example.

Don't presume to know anything about me or how these situations came about. One of the two girls I mentioned above I had been friends with for a year and a half before she broke down during a heart-to-heart and told me how bad things were for her. Before then, I'd never had the slightest idea there was anything wrong in her life, nor did she give any indication. The second girl I happened upon by some twist of fate while she was feeling suicidally depressed. No one took the time to listen to her problems or care, not even her best childhood friend, so I stepped up to the plate. I convinced her not to do anything rash and thus felt that she'd become my responsibility: I talked her out of taking her own life, so whatever happened to her next was "my fault".

I never actively sought these girls out. They just happened into my life. And, for the record, both these incidents happened around ten to twelve years ago. I've become significantly more disillusioned and cynical since then.

Bagheera wrote:It wasn't that awkward, really (it's kind of a good position if you know what you're doing). And the bit with the nylons is he didn't wanna rip 'em.

Oh please. Ignoring, for a moment, the inherent stupidity of trying to remove nylons while the person wearing them is lying down, if you're that incompetent when it comes to undressing a girl, then you have her stand up and remove her nylons and panties herself. And if she shows any hesitation or reluctance, that's another sign that something's wrong.

Bagheera wrote:Also note that Hanako did absolutely nothing here. Input from her at this point would have been extremely helpful. The scene makes a lot more sense if you look at it as the product of two people rather than one guy who's doing it wrong.

For god's sake, is asking something that hard? During my first time out, I let the girl take the lead and occasionally asked her if she felt comfortable when I did this or that. It's just basic common sense and consideration. Yes, Hanako's the submissive, shy type and wouldn't have spoken up easily, but you're acting as if Hisao couldn't have just paused at any point and asked her, "Do you feel like continuing? We can stop if you feel uncomfortable." Personally speaking, I'd rather end up with blue balls than traumatizing some poor girl. And I say that as someone who isn't in the "Hisao's a rapist" camp.

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:05 pm**

Could we all please just chill out and remember that we're talking about characters in a work of fiction that's not intended as a direct indictment or defense of anyone's particular life experiences?

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:17 pm**

Lunar Archivist wrote:You say that as if it's simple to change your circumstances. It's not. Based on my personal observations, if you're in a rut or an abusive relationship, chances are that you feel stuck and get used to being in that bad place because you've been in it for so long that you've forgotten that there's any other way to live. If you have the strength of will to extricate yourself from such situations, good for you. Many people don't.

And yet they're the only ones who can. We can give them assistance if they ask for it, and point them toward resources that can help them, but we can't force them to make good decisions. It's not up to you to rescue them. It's up to them to rescue themselves.

(and believe me when I say I know what I'm talking about; I work in law enforcement, and routinely deal with cases of domestic abuse. We can tell them about orders of protection, shelters, therapy, and all sorts of things, but will they listen? The best we can do is give them options and information. Past that it's up to them.)

Don't presume to know anything about me or how these situations came about. One of the two girls I mentioned above I had been friends with for a year and a half before she broke down during a heart-to-heart and told me how bad things were for her. Before then, I'd never had the slightest idea there was anything wrong in her life, nor did she give any indication. The second girl I happened upon by some twist of fate while she was feeling suicidally depressed. No one took the time to listen to her problems or care, not even her best childhood friend, so I stepped up to the plate. I convinced her not to do anything rash and thus felt that she'd become my responsibility: I talked her out of taking her own life, so whatever happened to her next was "my fault".

Well, that's good! There's nothing wrong with being someone's friend, nor with offering reasonable assistance if asked. But neither of those situations really has much to do with the situation at hand.

Oh please. Ignoring, for a moment, the inherent stupidity of trying to remove nylons while the person wearing them is lying down, if you're that incompetent when it comes to undressing a girl, then you have her stand up and remove her nylons and panties herself. And if she shows any hesitation or reluctance, that's another sign that something's wrong.

Wait, when did Hisao become competent when it comes to undressing girls?

Personally speaking, I'd rather end up with blue balls than traumatizing some poor girl. And I say that as someone who isn't in the "Hisao's a rapist" camp.

Well yes, but she wasn't traumatized. It was her idea, after all.

Past that, why do so many act as though Hisao's nice and stable and clear-headed while Hanako's some weak traumatized little girl? They both had issues, they both made mistakes. IMO that was the point of the scene.

CNB: That scene is so much funnier with Hanako involved!

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:16 pm**

Bagheera wrote:And yet they're the only ones who can. We can give them assistance if they ask for it, and point them toward resources that can help them, but we can't force them to make good decisions. It's not up to you to rescue them. It's up to them to rescue themselves.

It's my "job" to try and provide alternatives and support. The rest will come if it comes.

Bagheera wrote:Well, that's good! There's nothing wrong with being someone's friend, nor with offering reasonable assistance if asked. But neither of those situations really has much to do with the situation at hand.

And yet, a few posts ago, you had this smug air of self-righteousness about you when you presumed to have me all figured out: that I was some kind of White Knight equivalent of Don Quixote, seeking out hard luck cases on purpose.

As for the situation, it's most definitely relevant. Hisao saw someone whom he felt was in trouble or had problems and felt compelled to reach out to her since no one else seemed to care. Then he became so obsessed with helping her sort her life out that he began neglecting his own as a result. I'm pretty sure all of us have been in a position like that at some point in our lives.

Bagheera wrote:Wait, when did Hisao become competent when it comes to undressing girls?

I'm pretty sure a five-year-old knows that trying to put on or take off your pants while lying in bed is unnecessarily complicated.

Bagheera wrote:Well yes, but she wasn't traumatized. It was her idea, after all.

Well, she was traumatized by her parents' deaths and the merciless bullying she suffered. And given that her introduction to sex and how awkward and painful it was for her, I don't think that her next intimate session with Hisao is going to be magically free of issues. Chances are that she probably developed a few new ones now that're going to take a bit of time and effort to sort out. Nothing horrendous, but still things that could've been avoided...

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:23 pm**

CNB wrote:Could we all please just chill out and remember that we're talking about characters in a work of fiction that's not intended as a direct indictment or defense of anyone's particular life experiences?

Hanako: Someone is wrong on the internet

For the win

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:53 pm**

Lunar Archivist wrote:And yet, a few posts ago, you had this smug air of self-righteousness about you when you presumed to have me all figured out: that I was some kind of White Knight equivalent of Don Quixote, seeking out hard luck cases on purpose.

I never actually said anything like that, you know. Seems like I'm not the one jumping to conclusions here.

As for the situation, it's most definitely relevant.

You don't see the difference between someone who's in crisis and actively seeking help and one who's put the crisis behind her and is trying to have a normal life? They really aren't the same.

Well, she was traumatized by her parents' deaths and the merciless bullying she suffered. And given that her introduction to sex and how awkward and painful it was for her, I don't think that her next intimate session with Hisao is going to be magically free of issues. Chances are that she probably developed a few new ones now that're going to take a bit of time and effort to sort out. Nothing horrendous, but still things that could've been avoided...

I don't think anyone's disputing that. The only difference seems to be in whether we put the blame for such squarely on Hisao's shoulders or assume it was a group effort.

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:05 pm**

themocaw wrote:For the win

Definitely. I can totally believe the picture

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:23 pm**

Bagheera wrote:I never actually said anything like that, you know. Seems like I'm not the one jumping to conclusions here.

This quote...

Bagheera wrote:(Why are you hanging around so many physically and emotionally damaged women, anyway? Got something against healthy folks?)

...implies that I'm either making an active effort to spend time around these women or seeking them out. I'm not. I hate drama and would be perfectly happy if they didn't gravitate towards me. I have enough problems of my own.

Bagheera wrote:You don't see the difference between someone who's in crisis and actively seeking help and one who's put the crisis behind her and is trying to have a normal life? They really aren't the same.

First of all, Hanako is seeing a therapist, so she's actively seeking help. Second of all, she most definitely hasn't "put the crisis behind her" or "trying to have a normal life". She's made a habit of locking herself in her room on her birthday because of self-worth issues and her solution to leading a normal life is to pretty much avoid contact with other human beings and making herself as socially invisible as possible (and is her strategy of choice when the game opens). Yes, she's started working on the latter after meeting Lilly and Hisao and she demonstrates significant improvement in that area in Lilly's path, but she still has a ways to go.

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2012 6:48 pm**

I like to imagine that when Hanako hesitantly mentions that she "likes computers," what she actually means is, "I edit Wikipedia articles about fashion, tropical aquarium fish, vegetarian cooking, and computer operating systems. I bought that penguin doll on my shelf because I've been running custom Linux distros ever since I first saved up enough money to build my own computer, when I was 14. I have over 100 gigabytes of music on my hard drive, all of it by unsigned bands you've never heard of unless you read the obscure music blog I write anonymous reviews for." It is perhaps a bit out of character, but I am tremendously amused by the idea that Hanako is the world's most deeply-closeted hipster. I fantasize about her spending days getting psyched up to finally confront Hisao about how unacceptably square that sweater vest makes him look.

I also like to imagine that when she locks herself in her room on her birthday, she spends most of that time playing Bejeweled. Which I'll admit is entirely me projecting, since that's essentially what I did in order to cope with my parents' divorce (except in my case it was Tekken 5).

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:33 pm**

CNB wrote:I like to imagine that when Hanako hesitantly mentions that she "likes computers," what she actually means is, "I edit Wikipedia articles about fashion, tropical aquarium fish, vegetarian cooking, and computer operating systems. I bought that penguin doll on my shelf because I've been running custom Linux distros ever since I first saved up enough money to build my own computer, when I was 14. I have over 100 gigabytes of music on my hard drive, all of it by unsigned bands you've never heard of unless you read the obscure music blog I write anonymous reviews for." It is perhaps a bit out of character, but I am tremendously amused by the idea that Hanako is the world's most deeply-closeted hipster. I fantasize about her spending days getting psyched up to finally confront Hisao about how unacceptably square that sweater vest makes him look.

I also like to imagine that when she locks herself in her room on her birthday, she spends most of that time playing Bejeweled. Which I'll admit is entirely me projecting, since that's essentially what I did in order to cope with my parents' divorce (except in my case it was Tekken 5).

Considering that in the pool scene when she says "I know the rules", she means "I have intensely studied three dozen books on the subject, as well as watched demonstration videos on youtube", it doesn't seem far fetched.

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:35 pm**

CNB wrote:I like to imagine that when Hanako hesitantly mentions that she "likes computers," what she actually means is, "I edit Wikipedia articles about fashion, tropical aquarium fish, vegetarian cooking, and computer operating systems. I bought that penguin doll on my shelf because I've been running custom Linux distros ever since I first saved up enough money to build my own computer, when I was 14. I have over 100 gigabytes of music on my hard drive, all of it by unsigned bands you've never heard of unless you read the obscure music blog I write anonymous reviews for." It is perhaps a bit out of character, but I am tremendously amused by the idea that Hanako is the world's most deeply-closeted hipster. I fantasize about her spending days getting psyched up to finally confront Hisao about how unacceptably square that sweater vest makes him look.

I also like to imagine that when she locks herself in her room on her birthday, she spends most of that time playing Bejeweled. Which I'll admit is entirely me projecting, since that's essentially what I did in order to cope with my parents' divorce (except in my case it was Tekken 5).

Ry74 wrote:Considering that in the pool scene when she says "I know the rules", she means "I have intensely studied three dozen books on the subject, as well as watched demonstration videos on youtube", it doesn't seem far fetched.

Actually, when she mentioned that, my mind quickly filled in the details with "reclusive hacker" traits. So I think you are not alone.

We all know that she copes by hacking away on the Linux kernel sources.

Code: Select all

~/git/linux$ git log --author=IKEZAWA
commit 301ad899fd0ef41f3605a7212c23f54ae33649f8
Author: IKEZAWA Hanako <hanako.ikezawa@yamaku.edu.jp>
Date:   Thu Jun 9 02:08:57 2007 -0500

    Input: add support for Braille devices

    - Add KEY_BRL_* input keys and K_BRL_* keycodes;
    - Add emulation of how braille keyboards usually combine braille dots
      to the console keyboard driver;
    - Add handling of unicode U+28xy diacritics.

    I... Ihadtodosomething... for Lilly. <3

    Signed-off-by: IKEZAWA Hanako <hanako.ikezawa@yamaku.edu.jp>

(And yes, I took a (real) relevant commit message to base this one on. Finding it and filling in the details was great fun.)

Posted: **Sat Jan 28, 2012 7:50 pm**

Ry74 wrote:Considering that in the pool scene when she says "I know the rules", she means "I have intensely studied three dozen books on the subject, as well as watched demonstration videos on youtube", it doesn't seem far fetched.

It would be more hilarious if she were like the eponymous character on Chuck and could immediately absorb this information into her brain.

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