Katawa Shoujo Forums

You know, you shoud really cut back on the insults, name-calling and the almost-invocation of Godwin's Law.
I have the feeling that this thread is this close to being shut down permanently...

Personally, I think that if Hisao had known how things would turn out, he'd probably just have given her a hug and told her he loved her, but hindsight is 20/20, and I don't think I'd have been that observant in his situation. The signals Hanako was sending would be seen as unambiguous by most males, and she later confirmed that she intended to have sex with Hisao from the start.
Regarding all the things that can go wrong when you (try to) have sex for the first time, I don't think Hisao did too badly.
In fact, it's more than unrealistic how all the virgin males in other VNs inexplicably know just the right way to pleasure a female and go at it like experienced porn stars.

Rivan wrote: I really wish we'd been given some branching paths and interactivity during that sex scene, at least. I would've loved to try and finesse my way through it.

What. O.o I'd actually rather not turn KS into a full-on H-game.

Mirage_GSM wrote:You know, you shoud really cut back on the insults, name-calling and the almost-invocation of Godwin's Law.
I have the feeling that this thread is this close to being shut down permanently...

Personally, I think that if Hisao had known how things would turn out, he'd probably just have given her a hug and told her he loved her, but hindsight is 20/20, and I don't think I'd have been that observant in his situation. The signals Hanako was sending would be seen as unambiguous by most males, and she later confirmed that she intended to have sex with Hisao from the start.
Regarding all the things that can go wrong when you (try to) have sex for the first time, I don't think Hisao did too badly.
In fact, it's more than unrealistic how all the virgin males in other VNs inexplicably know just the right way to pleasure a female and go at it like experienced porn stars.

About hindsight being 20/20. This is so true. I think that's the reason why some people were vehemently arguing.

Guest Poster wrote:

But because of her principle psychology as well as her general feelings towards Hisao, she decided to fuck the consequences and fulfuill her "debt" to Hisao. This decision was further augmented by Hisao's little date with her and his small present to her. This is the determining factor that affirmed Hanako that Hisao isn't just treating her like a delicate doll but as his girlfriend. THE SEX HAS GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER HISAO TREATED HER LIKE A REAL WOMAN. That's where the good/bad ending diversion happened.

It's a little more complicated than that. The little date and present could be used to explain that at least Hisao didn't see her as a fragile little sister, but it does little to make the distinction between "close friend" and "girlfriend". There was no doubt that Hisao and Hanako grew close. The two of them shared things with one another they hadn't even shown or told Lilly. But despite the closeness, Hisao never showed any signs of actual attraction to Hanako (at least none that Hanako caught), probably intentional on his part because he was afraid of scaring her off. Hanako, for her part, interpreted this as being friend zoned by Hisao. Even a straight "I love you" could easily be taken in multiple ways.

Therefore at the point of the sex scene, Hanako was just baring her inner feelings about her history and her mental fixtures caused by her previous bad experiences. She had no intention of sex. Maybe she took a risk with letting Hisao see her naked, but she didn't need him to fuck her just to prove to her that he could treat her like her girlfriend.

No, she wasn't just showing her scars to Hisao as a reply to him showing her the scar on his chest. Hanako herself later confirmed that sleeping with Hisao was what she intended to happen when she invited him to her room. That's why, after showing Hisao her scarring, she just stood there instead of immediately dressing up again. She wanted to get out of that friend zone. If Hisao had told her to get her clothes back on again, that would have been the definite indication to her that he wasn't interested in her as a woman, merely as a friend.

As for Hisao's handling of it...yeah, he wasn't the perfect gentleman, but I don't think it's fair to accuse him of acting like an unfeeling troglodyte. Neither Hisao nor Hanako were emotionally ready for the kind of intimacy that Hanako suddenly initiated and the complete lack of emotional and mental preparation played a big role in how things turned out in that scene. Most likely, Hisao was shocked into proceeding on auto-pilot while his mind was still trying to piece together what the hell was happening all of a sudden. He most likely knew deep down that pressing on was what was expected of him, but given to how his previous assumptions about Hanako were suddenly blown to pieces completely, I don't think it's too unrealistic to assume he was simply going through the motions without focussing on lovemaking technique while trying to digest how things suddenly came to this.

I also agree completely. I think the occasional rage may have something to do with the fact that Hanako fans might have expected something else from her route overall and especially from her sex scene, and instead, they received something that is human, is awkward, is well written, but isn't beautiful nor even close to what they imagined.

newnar wrote:Look, throughout the whole arc, Hanako has shown her "show-me-urs-and-I-have-to-show-you-mine" psychology. This is one of the main reasons Hisao was even able to get close to Hanako. Hanako wanted to revealed her scars to him because Hisao took the first step. She was apprehensive because she knew that baring herself would include other implications as well(sex), which she still wasn't sure of. But because of her principle psychology as well as her general feelings towards Hisao, she decided to fuck the consequences and fulfuill her "debt" to Hisao. This decision was further augmented by Hisao's little date with her and his small present to her. This is the determining factor that affirmed Hanako that Hisao isn't just treating her like a delicate doll but as his girlfriend. THE SEX HAS GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER HISAO TREATED HER LIKE A REAL WOMAN. That's where the good/bad ending diversion happened.

You're wrong.
Making the decision to follow Lilly's advice is merely acknowledging Hanako is a self-sufficient person and not a fragile thing to protect. A step from there to acknowledging her as an attractive woman and romantic target is a huge one, and one she doesn't see Hisao taking, so she kind of forces his hand.

Hanako was in no way affirmed Hisao was treating her as his girlfriend. At best, she was his friend or a little sister. At worst, she worries she might just be his "holy object" he wants to "protect" and nothing else, and that is the line between the overall story and the bad ending(s). Hanako acknowledged her actions may well lead to sex and accepted it as a last resort to have Hisao look at her as a romantic partner and not just "little sister" type of friend or worse. She admits so herself.

xaolindragon wrote:

Rivan wrote: I really wish we'd been given some branching paths and interactivity during that sex scene, at least. I would've loved to try and finesse my way through it.

What. O.o I'd actually rather not turn KS into a full-on H-game.

I said that, not Rivan. And I'm not talking about depraved sexual fantasies, just logical choices. Like talking to her before just having sex on auto-pilot, a hold and cuddle option, or, y'know, something that might've made things more comfortable or less awkward for both of them.

I thought the scene and its lead-in were awkwardly staged, but I also didn't think anything about it was particularly out of character. Two kids misread their own and each other's feelings, got intimate for the wrong reasons, and had a shitty first time. It happens.

Fortunately, the shittiness turned out to be the wake-up call they needed to realize what they actually needed do to take their relationship to the next level, in a way that world-rocking sex, abort-to-snuggling, or let's-talk-about-this-first might not have. Hugs and muffins for everybody!

Lunar Archivist wrote:

xaolindragon wrote:

Rivan wrote: I really wish we'd been given some branching paths and interactivity during that sex scene, at least. I would've loved to try and finesse my way through it.

What. O.o I'd actually rather not turn KS into a full-on H-game.

I said that, not Rivan. And I'm not talking about depraved sexual fantasies, just logical choices. Like talking to her before just having sex on auto-pilot, a hold and cuddle option, or, y'know, something that might've made things more comfortable or less awkward for both of them.

Oh my bad. I was combining two different quotes. Looks like I mixed up who said what.

I said that, not Rivan. And I'm not talking about depraved sexual fantasies, just logical choices. Like talking to her before just having sex on auto-pilot, a hold and cuddle option, or, y'know, something that might've made things more comfortable or less awkward for both of them.

I think most people (including yours truly) who had been anticipating the release expected to have a tender hold and cuddle lovemaking session with Hanako because that'd fit her personality and it'd probably be a truly heartwarming experience...which is why we felt cheated when her only H-scene was so awkward and then the game ended before she got a second one. But keeping the story in mind, I don't think a lovey dovey sex session at that point would have lead to the scene we saw at the park. (Hisao initiated it because he felt something was off) Also, I don't think a love and cuddle session would have been realistic, with someone as selfconcious about her body as Hanako I'd imagine small steps would have to be taken before she'd be comfortable with straight sex...not something that could be done in an evening or even a few evenings. It would have been sweet, it would have been the scene we all wanted from Hanako's path, but it wouldn't have been realistic.

As a sidenote:

Therefore at the point of the sex scene, Hanako was just baring her inner feelings about her history and her mental fixtures caused by her previous bad experiences. She had no intention of sex.

I'd imagine this is what Hanako was probably planning as a justification had Hisao given her a hug and then asked her to dress up again. She'd have clarity that Hisao didn't see her as a potential romantic partner and he might not have thought her action to be too strange, merely unusually bold.

Quite frankly, I think she was longing for that clarity for quite a while. Hanako obviously had been in love with Hisao for quite some time, yet he didn't show her any signs of attraction. Instead, at the pool table, she got a brotherly pat on the back and a promise he'd protect her. You'll notice Hanako gets antsy when Hisao gets friendly with other women. She saw him being friendly with Miki who was casually sitting on his desk. She saw him discussing his troubles with Yuuko. She gets wary about Lilly's and Hisao's time in the city together, probably noticed Hisao sneaking a glance at Lilly's legs during their tea party and gets nervous with a cute waitress serving them during their time together. For someone like Hanako, who considers herself unattractive, it's not a stretch to believe she'd feel any female with a cute face could easily capture Hisao's interest more effortlessly than she could. It's not like her moments of Hisao and her opening up to each other were bringing an actual relationship any closer.

I'd like to say Hanako's antsiness about Hisao looking at other women was exaggerated, but I'm afraid I can say from personal experience that the time between the moment you realize you see a friend as more than a friend and the moment where you're either friend zoned or have your feelings returned is the worst and being friend zoned, while painful, at least means you no longer feel that anxiety whenever your friend gets chummy with members of the opposite sex. (this is even true for people without Hanako's severe self esteem issues) I doubt I'd have acted the way Hanako did, but I can definitely imagine the uncertainry and ambigiousness of Hisao towards her were eating away at her...to the point where she was willing to force the issue so she could at least put it to rest in some way or another.

Guest Poster wrote:I think most people (including yours truly) who had been anticipating the release expected to have a tender hold and cuddle lovemaking session with Hanako because that'd fit her personality and it'd probably be a truly heartwarming experience...which is why we felt cheated when her only H-scene was so awkward and then the game ended before she got a second one. But keeping the story in mind, I don't think a lovey dovey sex session at that point would have lead to the scene we saw at the park. (Hisao initiated it because he felt something was off) Also, I don't think a love and cuddle session would have been realistic, with someone as selfconcious about her body as Hanako I'd imagine small steps would have to be taken before she'd be comfortable with straight sex...not something that could be done in an evening or even a few evenings. It would have been sweet, it would have been the scene we all wanted from Hanako's path, but it wouldn't have been realistic.

I completely agree that a lovey dovey sex session wouldn't have led to the scene at the park, but I'm speaking strictly from a non-eroge perspective on this. If I'd been in Hisao's position and seen Hanako flinch when I took off my pants, I'd probably have taken her to the bed, sat down on it with her, held her hand gently in mine, asked her something along the lines of "What the heck are we doing?" and offered some reassuring words in the hopes that the conversation at the park would've been initiated then rather than afterwards.

First off, new to the forums, loved the experience, thanks for having me here and so on.

Now to the meat XD

Lunar Archivist wrote:

Guest Poster wrote:I think most people (including yours truly) who had been anticipating the release expected to have a tender hold and cuddle lovemaking session with Hanako because that'd fit her personality and it'd probably be a truly heartwarming experience...which is why we felt cheated when her only H-scene was so awkward and then the game ended before she got a second one. But keeping the story in mind, I don't think a lovey dovey sex session at that point would have lead to the scene we saw at the park. (Hisao initiated it because he felt something was off) Also, I don't think a love and cuddle session would have been realistic, with someone as selfconcious about her body as Hanako I'd imagine small steps would have to be taken before she'd be comfortable with straight sex...not something that could be done in an evening or even a few evenings. It would have been sweet, it would have been the scene we all wanted from Hanako's path, but it wouldn't have been realistic.

I completely agree that a lovey dovey sex session would've led to the scene at the park, but I'm speaking strictly from a non-eroge perspective on this. If I'd been in Hisao's position and seen Hanako flinch when I took off my pants, I'd probably have taken her to the bed, sat down on it with her, held her hand gently in mine, asked her something along the lines of "What the heck are we doing?" and offered some reassuring words in the hopes that the conversation at the park would've been initiated then rather than afterwards.

Lunar pretty much hits a homer as to why the Hanako scene felt off. Basically, how the hell can your reaction to seeing a shivering, sobbing woman that is covered in scars (that have caused her immense amounts of trauma and who you know has incredible problems just allowing people to see half of her face and who pretty much has gone against half her ingrained instincts by showing you all of it) be taking off your pants? This is the only instance in the whole game where Hisao felt like a sleaze to me (being dense or clueless is a whole other animal...), I mean, he later noticed how fucked up th whole thing was, but even then, it still leaves that mark, "you were too horny to have basic human empathy". That doesn't mean the scene couldn't have ended in sex, or weird uncomfortable sex at that, but certainly after quite a bit more talking, foreplay and with Hanako having recovered a sense of composure or with Hanako being more "proactive" to get later to the "offering herself to see if he saw her like a woman and not just something that needs sheltering" plot point. Pretty much what Lunar Activist said is what I would have expected. Hell, probably Hanako's route could have completely done without the H scene.

As a side note, I do feel one of the best art pieces in the whole game is precisely Hanako showing herself, very emotive, very imposing yet still showing her beauty.

Also, as another side note, loved Hanako's bad ending, it was a fantastic bashing to the whole white knight syndrome and the consequences it brings. Hell, her neutral ending felt sadder to me since it meant they kept the empty status quo, with the bad one at least Hanako finally left some of that pent up rage out of her system and could have moved on from there.

Guest wrote:Lunar pretty much hits a homer as to why the Hanako scene felt off. Basically, how the hell can your reaction to seeing a shivering, sobbing woman that is covered in scars (that have caused her immense amounts of trauma and who you know has incredible problems just allowing people to see half of her face and who pretty much has gone against half her ingrained instincts by showing you all of it) be taking off your pants? This is the only instance in the whole game where Hisao felt like a sleaze to me (being dense or clueless is a whole other animal...), I mean, he later noticed how fucked up th whole thing was, but even then, it still leaves that mark, "you were too horny to have basic human empathy". That doesn't mean the scene couldn't have ended in sex, or weird uncomfortable sex at that, but certainly after quite a bit more talking, foreplay and with Hanako having recovered a sense of composure or with Hanako being more "proactive" to get later to the "offering herself to see if he saw her like a woman and not just something that needs sheltering" plot point. Pretty much what Lunar Activist said is what I would have expected. Hell, probably Hanako's route could have completely done without the H scene.

I tend to agree with the last bit, but as for the rest I think you're drastically overestimating Hanako's ability to contribute during that scene, and underestimating Hisao's understanding of her character. Mind you, I don't think Hanako's helpless here; I noted earlier that I think exactly the opposite. But I also think the extent of her agency in this scene was applied to setting the scene: she brought Hisao into her room, ensured their privacy, and undressed for him and essentially said "this is the best I can do, I reallyreallyreally hope you take it from here." Hisao wasn't ready for that -- wasn't ready for sex in general, probably -- but he knew her well enough to grasp what she was trying to say and stumble forth on autopilot trying to make it happen.

As I said before I think she made it a lot more difficult than it needed to be. She didn't have to tip her hand quite that much to get what she wanted, and if she hadn't Hisao probably wouldn't have been so flustered that he charged blindly ahead without really thinking about what he was doing. But as many have noted that's how teenagers are (on both counts). Mistakes were made, shit happens, life goes on.

Bagheera wrote: I tend to agree with the last bit, but as for the rest I think you're drastically overestimating Hanako's ability to contribute during that scene, and underestimating Hisao's understanding of her character. Mind you, I don't think Hanako's helpless here; I noted earlier that I think exactly the opposite. But I also think the extent of her agency in this scene was applied to setting the scene: she brought Hisao into her room, ensured their privacy, and undressed for him and essentially said "this is the best I can do, I reallyreallyreally hope you take it from here." Hisao wasn't ready for that -- wasn't ready for sex in general, probably -- but he knew her well enough to grasp what she was trying to say and stumble forth on autopilot trying to make it happen.

As I said before I think she made it a lot more difficult than it needed to be. She didn't have to tip her hand quite that much to get what she wanted, and if she hadn't Hisao probably wouldn't have been so flustered that he charged blindly ahead without really thinking about what he was doing. But as many have noted that's how teenagers are (on both counts). Mistakes were made, shit happens, life goes on.

I think you are going to deep into the psyche of it all, I already find a huge wall in a more basic level. I am literally incapable of getting hard by watching a scene like that and acting upon it. It may generate an excitement erection, but shame and seeing no enjoyment at all from her would utterly kill it for me, and I have to insist, she has tears in her eyes and is shaking like a leaf. Basically, I'm not saying that the concept of Hanako using this as a resource is bad or anything of the type, what I'm saying is Hisao's reaction feels too primal and almost out of character to how he seems to behave in the rest of KS seeing how he tends to be very sensitive, reason why I insist that it sort of feels out of nowhere. I'm not bashing on the sex scene being unappealing, I'm bashing at Hisao's whole reaction to the development is to just go for it. I myself have had intimacy with women with scars and by god man, it takes a lot of care to open that shell, not in the scene of it being "ugly" or anything like that (it was still soft and warm), but in the sense that it has a great emotional weight attached to it and it has to be dealt with utmost care.

Guest wrote:I think you are going to deep into the psyche of it all, I already find a huge wall in a more basic level. I am literally incapable of getting hard by watching a scene like that and acting upon it.

Uh . . . how is that even remotely relevant to the discussion at hand?

I myself have had intimacy with women with scars and by god man, it takes a lot of care to open that shell, not in the scene of it being "ugly" or anything like that (it was still soft and warm), but in the sense that it has a great emotional weight attached to it and it has to be dealt with utmost care.

That might be relevant if Hisao was the pursuer here, but he wasn't. Hanako's the one who initiated things in this instance and that puts a very different spin on things.

(and good grief, white knight much? Hanako's not a prize to be won, for chrissakes; the point of the route is to give her the space she needs to come out of her shell on her own, not to manipulate things so that you "win" by coaxing her out of it. Paying attention to what she wants and assuming she's tough enough to take it if you screw up a little is a big part of that. That's why things worked out the way they did in her route.)

Bagheera wrote:and good grief, white knight much?

This coming from the person who continually insists that there's no such thing as a mutual relationship.

Brogurt wrote:

Bagheera wrote:and good grief, white knight much?

This coming from the person who continually insists that there's no such thing as a mutual relationship.

Say what? I've never insisted upon anything of the sort. I've never even suggested it.

Bagheera wrote:I tend to agree with the last bit, but as for the rest I think you're drastically overestimating Hanako's ability to contribute during that scene, and underestimating Hisao's understanding of her character.

Unfortunately, I can't really agree with that last bit considering that, during the good ending scene, Hisao is shocked to discover that pretty everything he thought he knew about her was wrong.

Here's the way I understand the scene: Hanako took Hisao to her room knowing full well that their ending up having sex together was a distinct possibility and was prepared to offer herself to him sexually because she was afraid she'd up losing him to another girl. She initiated the sequence of events and forced herself to go through with it.

That being said, there were several red flags that Hisao noticed but completely ignored during the whole sequence. That she was nervous and jittery the whole time (including when he touched her), that she avoided eye contact with him a lot of the time, that she couldn't even kiss him properly, her flinching when he took off his pants, resignation in walking towards the bed with him, her anxiousness and focus on their genitals when he was about to have sexual intercourse with her, her pain during penetration, her forced smile during sex, her continued pain while they were having sex...any two or three of these would've been enough for me to pretty much stop and walk away because it was clear that she wasn't enjoying what we were doing.

Guest wrote:I think you are going to deep into the psyche of it all, I already find a huge wall in a more basic level. I am literally incapable of getting hard by watching a scene like that and acting upon it. It may generate an excitement erection, but shame and seeing no enjoyment at all from her would utterly kill it for me, and I have to insist, she has tears in her eyes and is shaking like a leaf.

This reminds me of me why I hate watching Japanese porn. The women in it rarely look like they're enjoying themselves and the sounds they make...it's like listening to someone slowly eviscerate a puppy with a spork.

Honestly, a woman for me isn't a living sex toy. One thing that majorly gets me off is her getting off. I'm not sure I could've stayed hard with Hanako acting the way she was either.

Bagheera wrote:(and good grief, white knight much? Hanako's not a prize to be won, for chrissakes; the point of the route is to give her the space she needs to come out of her shell on her own, not to manipulate things so that you "win" by coaxing her out of it. Paying attention to what she wants and assuming she's tough enough to take it if you screw up a little is a big part of that. That's why things worked out the way they did in her route.)

You know, the more I hear people throw around the term "White Knight", the more it annoys me because they either seem to have a completely distorted concept of it from 4chan or they're describing a particular lunatic fringe element of the group.

I've tried being the White Knight before. The whole point of the damn thing - at least for me - was never to go charging into the cave, slay the dragon, and then keep the princess locked up in there and in chains while standing on guard duty forever because letting her out into the big bad world was too dangerous. That would just make me a new and different type of dragon. The goal was to let her out of the cave and offer emotional and moral support (and protection, if asked for) while she learned to fend for and protect herself. The princess and the White Knight kicking ass together is way more awesome.