Katawa Shoujo Forums

Xanatos wrote:If it were exactly the same, it wouldn't be a bad ending.

Yeah I could have worded my post a lot better, but you got my point. It's the same except it cuts off earlier and isn't particulary happy.

Also, my turn to be pedantic now, it's generally called 'Lilly's Neutral' ending.

Nobody in Particular wrote:Also, my turn to be pedantic now, it's generally called 'Lilly's Neutral' ending.

If you're a true Lillybro, you consider it a bad ending since your waifu just left you for good.

OtakuNinja wrote:

Boppin wrote:I guess I'm just not sure why people think her route isn't as good as the others.

1. There's only one decision point.
2. She's very competitive
3. Communication problems. At least in the firsts acts.

(Yes, I recognize that you're more likely voicing common criticisms than your personal objections.)

1. More decisions points != better story. Perhaps it would be better to complain that the one decision was obvious. That being said, the single decision and the obviousness of the decision were specifically chosen for the narrative value of that approach. It's not a matter of laziness or a rushed approach. It was a conscious artistic decision. More decision points would have trivialized the impact of the single decision, and would likely have been irrelevant as well.

2. That may be acceptable as a criticism of Shizune, but it's a surface-level criticism. It's like saying Hanako's shy or Rin's spacey. I can see how it's enough to push people away, but it's quite shallow. I'd say a more legitimate complaint would be that it seems she doesn't really undergo character development. That being said, she does develop as a character, but not necessarily in the expected manner.

3. Another shallow complaint like #2. And equally valid against Rin.

More perplexing, considering the in-universe nature of the latter two complaints, it's clear that Shizune resonates with people. She just resonates on the wrong wavelengths, it seems.

At first, I didn't like Shizune, and felt her route was inadequate. But I was self-aware to realize that there were things in the route that I hadn't really noticed on my first run, so I considered it a failing of myself, not the route. A few careful readings later, Shizune still isn't my favorite, but I appreciate her a lot more.

ProfAllister wrote:1. More decisions points != better story. Perhaps it would be better to complain that the one decision was obvious. That being said, the single decision and the obviousness of the decision were specifically chosen for the narrative value of that approach. It's not a matter of laziness or a rushed approach. It was a conscious artistic decision. More decision points would have trivialized the impact of the single decision, and would likely have been irrelevant as well.

And similarly, the impact of the single decision != better story.

It's not really a matter of a better story or whatnot, it's a matter of utilizing the attributes of the type of media the story is portrayed in: visual novels. For example, you could say that deliberately making a black and white movie in this time and age is purely an artistic choice, because the technology to go further than that (colour) is available. But there must be a good reason for this, like portraying the subtlety of lighting better or to mystify colours.

In the case of deliberately holding back the amount of choices in a visual novel - a key feature in this type of media - one could argue that this was done to make a greater impact on the player as there is more at stake. However, this is still a game we are talking about. It has rules to follow. The reason why that one choice rubs many players the wrong way is because they couldn't have seen it coming. It is unfair. Black and white in a movie is something you see right away. The importance of the choice you're about to make in this game is something you only see in hindsight. It isn't possible to know beforehand that everything is riding on this one choice. And the emotional investment readers put into the story seems to be taken lightly when everything depends on one choice alone without knowing that.

Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily. I personally can't understand people that say they didn't find a story good when it doesn't have happy end or didn't end how they feel should have ended. I can, however, understand that they didn't enjoy it. But that does not say anything about the quality of the story.

Now the one decision is a bad, but what makes that even worse is the character an themes of he story. In Act 1, you get Shizune's attention by taking chances and standing up for yourself. She says how she likes people that aren't worthless and actually go out and do things, so for the rest of the game you ... follow her around aimlessly doing whatever she says with no input of your own.

Nothing i settled, nothing is really resolved, all the drama is handled by ignoring it until it goes away. Hisao's health? never an issue. Shizune's problems with her family? Not going to handle it. Misha's depression? Ignore it until she starts acting like herself again. Shizune's sudden declaration that she really is a poor leader and doesn't know what she wants to do. lasts about three seconds before she says she knows what she's going to do now and is going to change... and you never actually see her do it, at least not in her route. In Lilly and Hanako's route,you see her actually opening up to people and trying to help or make amends.

On top of al o that, never once do Shizune and Hisao really feel like a couple. They have sex twice but both those scenes come out of nowhere and are never referenced again. I don;'t think Shizune ever actually says "I love you," or refers to Hisao as her boyfriend.

Plus lots of people just really don't like her personality.

OtakuNinja wrote:

Nobody in Particular wrote:Also, my turn to be pedantic now, it's generally called 'Lilly's Neutral' ending.

If you're a true Lillybro, you consider it a bad ending since your waifu just left you for good.

Haha. I'm sure the ending could be a lot worse, but I just wanted a happy ending!

First time I heard of "Lillybro", count me in

I think whatever the first play through you do is the most emotional. Emi was my second play through and I didn't have the feels.

Oddball wrote:Now the one decision is a bad, but what makes that even worse is the character an themes of he story. In Act 1, you get Shizune's attention by taking chances and standing up for yourself. She says how she likes people that aren't worthless and actually go out and do things, so for the rest of the game you ... follow her around aimlessly doing whatever she says with no input of your own.

Nothing i settled, nothing is really resolved, all the drama is handled by ignoring it until it goes away. Hisao's health? never an issue. Shizune's problems with her family? Not going to handle it. Misha's depression? Ignore it until she starts acting like herself again. Shizune's sudden declaration that she really is a poor leader and doesn't know what she wants to do. lasts about three seconds before she says she knows what she's going to do now and is going to change... and you never actually see her do it, at least not in her route. In Lilly and Hanako's route,you see her actually opening up to people and trying to help or make amends.

On top of al o that, never once do Shizune and Hisao really feel like a couple. They have sex twice but both those scenes come out of nowhere and are never referenced again. I don;'t think Shizune ever actually says "I love you," or refers to Hisao as her boyfriend.

Plus lots of people just really don't like her personality.

These are all valid complaints when I weigh them against the other scenarios. I still really liked Shizune's story for what it did have, but I also must admit that I would have liked seeing some of these other plot developments resolved.

I definitely did enjoy her "take charge" attitude though. Not enough people I meet in this world are willing to go the distance and lead when the situation demands it. Her being deaf accentuates that even more and makes her more admirable to me.

e; If you guys are "Lillybros," I'll be a "Rin Kin."

ProfAllister wrote:1. More decisions points != better story. Perhaps it would be better to complain that the one decision was obvious. That being said, the single decision and the obviousness of the decision were specifically chosen for the narrative value of that approach.

To me the decision wasn't obvious... But in hindsight, the decision point was. ^^'

yates wrote:First time I heard of "Lillybro", count me in

"Lillybro" doesn't sound right, but it's the only name I have of it at the moment. (Please PM me if you find a better name )

Boppin wrote:If you guys are "Lillybros," I'll be a "Rin Kin."

Emibro
Hanabro
Lillybro
Rin Kin
Shizune

yates wrote:I think whatever the first play through you do is the most emotional. Emi was my second play through and I didn't have the feels.

Emi was my third, and I got the feels. The feels of hate!

OtakuNinja wrote:

Shizune

Ah yes, the theoretical "Shizune fan" a creature so rare that it has yet to actually be named.




Ah, I kid. Shizune isn't that bad of a character. She makes a great supporting character in other people's stories, it's mainly just her route that's really lacking.

OtakuNinja wrote:Shizune

...

...

...

Fucking feminists, all of ya.

OtakuNinja wrote: Emibro
Hanabro
Lillybro
Rin Kin
Shizune

Mishabros

Alright, this is what we've got so far:

Emibro
Hanabro
Lillybro
Rin Kin
Feminist
Two-timer

Boppin wrote:I often hear Shizune's arc referred to as the "weakest," which always makes me sad. I thought that her story was really good and that she and Misha were well done characters. The whole set-up was very interesting, what with Tanabata, the vacation home, the disconnect between Misha and Shizune... Every aspect focuses on Shizune's determination to see things through to the end. I guess I'm just not sure why people think her route isn't as good as the others.

There's a lot--A LOT--of things people missed in her route. The ones you name are just a few, with some bearing strong ties to cultural references that is more or less alien to the western community. Some of which are pretty common, others...not so much (e.g., Shizune's handmade lunch, meeting the family, invitation to tanabata, Misha's sudden haircut, high-expectations asian father, etc.). Since most of the readers--I assume--are from the west, Lilly's route tends to thread on more familiar grounds to the readers and gathers more audiences; after all, it is easier to digest than most.

OtakuNinja wrote:Alright, this is what we've got so far:

Emibro
Hanabro
Lillybro
Rin Kin
Feminist
Two-timer

I prefer to be called 'Shizuist'.

Oddball wrote:

OtakuNinja wrote:

Shizune

Ah yes, the theoretical "Shizune fan" a creature so rare that it has yet to actually be named.

Why do I smell Turian counselor in the house?

Oddball wrote:Now the one decision is a bad, but what makes that even worse is the character an themes of he story. In Act 1, you get Shizune's attention by taking chances and standing up for yourself. She says how she likes people that aren't worthless and actually go out and do things, so for the rest of the game you ... follow her around aimlessly doing whatever she says with no input of your own.

Nothing i settled, nothing is really resolved, all the drama is handled by ignoring it until it goes away. Hisao's health? never an issue. Shizune's problems with her family? Not going to handle it. Misha's depression? Ignore it until she starts acting like herself again. Shizune's sudden declaration that she really is a poor leader and doesn't know what she wants to do. lasts about three seconds before she says she knows what she's going to do now and is going to change... and you never actually see her do it, at least not in her route. In Lilly and Hanako's route,you see her actually opening up to people and trying to help or make amends.

On top of al o that, never once do Shizune and Hisao really feel like a couple. They have sex twice but both those scenes come out of nowhere and are never referenced again. I don;'t think Shizune ever actually says "I love you," or refers to Hisao as her boyfriend.

Plus lots of people just really don't like her personality.

Oh, really?

Do tell me how everything is resolved in Lilly's route