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Brogurt wrote:

Rivan wrote: Talking to you feels like you're covered in springs. It doesn't matter how much I try to explain or elaborate on a point, or who does it, all these things just bounce off you and yet you somehow expect us to accept your interpretation of things without questioning it.

>I have nothing left to say so I'll just pull out some AD HOMINEM. AWW YEAH DON'T STOP ME NOW.

Rivan wrote: 1.He went to her room, said he's not going to do anything weird, and then explained just what the hell's he doing. Then, he has shown his chest and that was it.
She dragged him to her room, closed everything, pulled everything so no one could see, stripped to her pants and stockings with admitted, actual knowledge as to what this could lead to. Surely you see at least a shade of difference.

His chest was the only part of him with the scar, you know. Did you ever consider that Hanako reciprocated in a way that was appropriate for her? It's not like she'd like to show off all of her scarring to the whole world. She's shy enough as is.

Rivan wrote: 2. It's not. It is a fitting scene if you even bother trying to perceive it from a different angle. It was admittedly made to be awkward and served it's purpose. It was a last-resort tactic on Hanako's part, almost backfired, but served it's purpose.

>A different angle
A lot of things look real nice if you look for a specific angle. Like the Holocaust.
>It was a an awkward last-resort tactic on Hanako's part
This has nothing to do with Hisao being retarded

Rivan wrote: 3. Neither he nor I are not acting like it. Unlike you, we're acting like this is a viable, possible outcome given their emotional state, development etc.

Hanako made her reasons apparent in the park scene, and they made sense. Hisao never told her why he did so little to make her comfortable or why he didn't tell her he loved her during or after secks.

Rivan wrote: 4. I guess you keep forgetting that it was Hanako who initiated the scene. With actual admitted knowledge of what will happen. Hisao didn't behave in the best way, but the quote-picture you provided is just his White Knight kicking back again - he doesn't give Hanako half of a credit and believes she has to be protected at all times, because she's oh-so-helpless-and-poor on her own. She kind of is. She tries not to be, and does everything to make him realize what he's doing is not helping. And she does it with full consciousness of what she is doing.

>The scene.
The undressing, yes. What came after, no.


For the record, the reason I'm arguing the fact that undressing to show scars!=immediate sex isn't because I don't believe she wanted sex, but because it's on the point of Hisao being stupid enough to not ask for her consent or anything like that. One of his very. Many. Faults.

And I at neither point argued he should have specifically asked for consent. Because he should. However, he's also never directly rebuffed. I never argued Hisao couldn't have done things differently. I never said he acted like the brightest person on the planet. And yet, it seems like I wrote or said all those things based on your responses.

Also, comparing me disagreeing with your interpretation of Hisao/Hanako sex scene with a certain angle making the Holocaust seem nice is, at best, a good attempt at mimicking a whisky-intoxicated Kenji.

His chest was the only part of him with the scar, you know. Did you ever consider that Hanako reciprocated in a way that was appropriate for her? It's not like she'd like to show off all of her scarring to the whole world. She's shy enough as is.

I think Hanako is bright enough to know that when you bare your breasts to a teenage male after making sure no one will disturb you two, he may take it differently than you just trying to make sure he knows the story of your life.

Hanako made her reasons apparent in the park scene, and they made sense. Hisao never told her why he did so little to make her comfortable or why he didn't tell her he loved her during or after secks.

Hisao ran all over the place searching for Hanako and went out of his way trying to learn her motives afer have a bluescreenofdeath moment over what they did. Hanako never specifically asked for anything regarding what Hisao did. She even tells him straight to the face she expected this would happen and she let him do it in hopes it would make him see her in a romantic light. Somehow, you have a double-standard that allows Hanako to be as timid, shy and unable to talk about things as physically possible, but Hisao in her route is somehow meant to be a beacon of maturity, knowledge and confidence.

And I keep telling you, what he did was, at least from my point of view, nothing outside the normal virgin/virgin first time screw-up of a supposedly pleasant intimate activity.

Brogurt wrote:It's like you entirely missed the part where I explained exactly why the undressing could mean something besides sex.

I didn't miss it, I just know you're wrong since the scene serves no purpose otherwise.

None of those have generated nearly as much controversy as this one did. And it's not like I'm the only one being a faggot; these arguments have been raging since the 4th on /v/'s general threads.

An argument's popularity does not make it correct. Those arguments, like those over Emi's sluttiness and the awfulness of Shizune's route, are the stuff of idiocy.

But did that mean it was necessary to be a troglodyte while doing it?

FFS, who cares? It's not relevant either way. You've gone from arguing about whether or not Hanako wanted sex to critiquing Hisao's technique. It's absurd!

>Asking someone for consent and telling them that you love them is white-knighting.
It feels like I addressed this already.

He should tell her he loves her when he damn well wants to and not a second before. And she gave her consent when she locked him in her room, stripped for him, and then sat her ass down between his legs when he reciprocated. That's called "oh cool, we're on the same page. Let's do it!"

Yeah, she was nervous as fuck, but this is Hanako we're talking about. DUH. And yeah, Hisao wanted to fuck her. OMG FOLKS HISAO WANTED TO FUCK HIS HOT GIRLFRIEND! WHAT A BASTARD!

He didn't force her. He didn't coerce her. He didn't pressure her. He just saw what she wanted (i.e., to be viewed as a woman instead of as a fragile ugly little doll) and did his best to give it to her.That doesn't make him a troglodyte. It just makes him an inexperienced doofus who tried his best.

IOW, teenager.

Rivan wrote:Also, comparing me disagreeing with your interpretation of Hisao/Hanako sex scene with a certain angle making the Holocaust seem nice is, at best, a good attempt at mimicking a whisky-intoxicated Kenji.

I hadn't even expected that decent of a reply to my remark.

I think Hanako is bright enough to know that when you bare your breasts to a teenage male after making sure no one will disturb you two, he may take it differently than you just trying to make sure he knows the story of your life.

[color=#804080]Hanako[/color] wrote:This is me. All of me.

I was under the impression that the stockings and panties would have been the point of no return, considering you can't really have sex with boobs unless you're hotdogging and that's way too weird for KS.

Hisao ran all over the place searching for Hanako and went out of his way trying to learn her motives afer have a bluescreenofdeath moment over what they did. Hanako never specifically asked for anything regarding what Hisao did. She even tells him straight to the face she expected this would happen and she let him do it in hopes it would make him see her in a romantic light. Somehow, you have a double-standard that allows Hanako to be as timid, shy and unable to talk about things as physically possible, but Hisao in her route is somehow meant to be a beacon of maturity, knowledge and confidence.

I'm not even sure what you're getting at here. It looks like you're saying that I'm saying that Hisao should have to tell her everything and she should have to tell him nothing, but what I'm saying is that the feeling should be mutual instead of all this stupid miscommunication. She opened up to him, and all he did was open her up. Yes, she should have told him in no uncertain words that she wanted to fuck, but she didn't, and he didn't do what he could have to remedy it. It's not like she's a stranger to him. Hisao knows who she is and how she acts.

And I keep telling you, what he did was, at least from my point of view, nothing outside the normal virgin/virgin first time screw-up of a supposedly pleasant intimate activity.

I keep telling you, what he did was, at least from my point of view, very much outside the normal virgin/virgin first time screw-up of a supposedly pleasant intimate activity.

Is that what you needed to hear? That this was my point of view, and not some kind of divine, trans-human, universal standard?

Bagheera wrote:I didn't miss it, I just know you're wrong since the scene serves no purpose otherwise.

>I'm right you're wrong END OF RINE
Does that mean you think the scene where he showed her his scar means nothing too?
I don't believe that I'm the one here with a double standard.

An argument's popularity does not make it correct. Those arguments, like those over Emi's sluttiness and the awfulness of Shizune's route, are the stuff of idiocy.

And yet here we are.

FFS, who cares? It's not relevant either way. You've gone from arguing about whether or not Hanako wanted sex to critiquing Hisao's technique. It's absurd!

Did you, um, forget what the point of this thread and, subsequently, this argument is?
For that matter, did you forget what started this whole debacle?
I was not saying she did not want sex. She wanted sex. Now you're just backpedaling. Check it out, this is how it has been since the beginning.

Brogurt wrote:>Holy shit she's showing me all of her scarring
>And telling me the whole story of the fire
>This must be an intimate moment for her
>Maybe I could show her a bit more empathy than just groping her so that I can get a boner, using her to get myself off, and then taking a kickass nap
>Maybe, instead of me having sex, we could have sex

Holy shit I don't even know what to do with all this leftover brainpower

I clarified myself later on, FFS.

Brogurt wrote:For the record, the reason I'm arguing the fact that undressing to show scars!=immediate sex isn't because I don't believe she wanted sex, but because it's on the point of Hisao being stupid enough to not ask for her consent or anything like that. One of his very. Many. Faults.

He should tell her he loves her when he damn well wants to and not a second before.

IOW, troglodyte. This is exactly what I'm talking about. She opens up to him and want have a mutually loving relationship, and he just does as he damn pleases.

I'm not even gonna respond to the rest of it since I don't want to go searching for responses I made several posts ago. So have this, a very in-depth analysis.

She reveals herself to him.
He goes straight to the Din Dins before even asking for consent.
Doesn't try to make her feel comfortable.
Doesn't try to make her feel loved.
Falls asleep right after.
It's retarded even for a virgin to do something that dumb to a girl who likes him.

Brogurt wrote:Does that mean you think the scene where he showed her his scar means nothing too?
I don't believe that I'm the one here with a double standard.

No, you are. She didn't have to strip to show him her scars. Hell, she didn't have to undress at all -- he can see them plainly on her face and arm. Even without that see my alternate scenario above.

It's retarded even for a virgin to do something that dumb to a girl who likes him.

And it's stupid to bitch about that given the other, very real problems with the scene. The main problem with your argument is one of proportionality -- you launch into tirades of character assassination against Hisao for failing to be as delicate as you'd like, but if you applied the same level of scrutiny to Hanako's actions (and her reasoning for said actions given in later scenes) you'd be calling her a whore right now. And that's what's tripping me up here -- you're going ballistic over something that's trivial and ignoring some very boneheaded things Hanako did at the same time. Get some perspective, and for God's sake acknowledge Hanako's role in the whole mess!

Hisao did a reckless thing by ignoring Hanako's cues; inexcusably reckless, frankly. Freezing up as Hanako did is one of the classic red flags: not quite a universal no-signal, but close enough that stopping to check and make sure everything's OK is basic due diligence. Failing to do this was, in essence, abdicating his personal responsibility to avoid raping people.

As it happens, she was in fact willing -she herself confirms this- and thus, he did not commit rape. But from his own perspective, this was essentially random luck. He was right to worry about it later, though he should have worried about it then. Certainly he's right to feel bad about having done something so dangerous. But for all his stumbling about, he didn't stumble across the line.

Bagheera wrote:No, you are. She didn't have to strip to show him her scars. Hell, she didn't have to undress at all -- he can see them plainly on her face and arm. Even without that see my alternate scenario above.

Brogurt wrote:

[color=#804080]Hanako[/color] wrote:This is me. All of me.

I was under the impression that the stockings and panties would have been the point of no return, considering you can't really have sex with boobs unless you're hotdogging and that's way too weird for KS.

You're doing a great job of ignoring all the posts which explicitly counter your statements. I wish I could do the same, but I have dignity.

It's Hisao's sudden shift from white-knight to neanderthal that's the most offsetting. She had plenty of reasons to believe he'd handle it gently and decently, but NOPE.avi

Nekken wrote:Hisao did a reckless thing by ignoring Hanako's cues; inexcusably reckless, frankly. Freezing up as Hanako did is one of the classic red flags: not quite a universal no-signal, but close enough that stopping to check and make sure everything's OK is basic due diligence. Failing to do this was, in essence, abdicating his personal responsibility to avoid raping people.

As it happens, she was in fact willing -she herself confirms this- and thus, he did not commit rape. But from his own perspective, this was essentially random luck. He was right to worry about it later, though he should have worried about it then. Certainly he's right to feel bad about having done something so dangerous. But for all his stumbling about, he didn't stumble across the line.

I think it's important to note that that goes both ways, though. She put him in an extremely high-pressure situation, forcing him to choose between rejecting her and pushing ahead with something they weren't ready to do, and all the while she never made her intentions clear. Add to that the fact that she just sat there when he initiated things, doing nothing to participate herself, and it's clear he's not solely to blame for the tense and confusing situation.

Let's also not forget that, for the same reasons she created the situation to begin with, her word can't be trusted when asked if everything's okay. Of course she'll say yes -- she can't back down at this point without losing everything (at least in her mind). Hisao asking her consent might make him feel better, and might assuage the anger of Hanako's fans, but it would be essentially meaningless in practice. It's the situation itself that was problematic. Ranting about Hisao's behavior while treating Hanako as part of the scenery is missing the point of the exercise.

Look, throughout the whole arc, Hanako has shown her "show-me-urs-and-I-have-to-show-you-mine" psychology. This is one of the main reasons Hisao was even able to get close to Hanako. Hanako wanted to revealed her scars to him because Hisao took the first step. She was apprehensive because she knew that baring herself would include other implications as well(sex), which she still wasn't sure of. But because of her principle psychology as well as her general feelings towards Hisao, she decided to fuck the consequences and fulfuill her "debt" to Hisao. This decision was further augmented by Hisao's little date with her and his small present to her. This is the determining factor that affirmed Hanako that Hisao isn't just treating her like a delicate doll but as his girlfriend. THE SEX HAS GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER HISAO TREATED HER LIKE A REAL WOMAN. That's where the good/bad ending diversion happened.

Therefore at the point of the sex scene, Hanako was just baring her inner feelings about her history and her mental fixtures caused by her previous bad experiences. She had no intention of sex. Maybe she took a risk with letting Hisao see her naked, but she didn't need him to fuck her just to prove to her that he could treat her like her girlfriend.

On Hisao's side, I completely agree that the guy was acting like an immature prick throughout that scene. HE DID NOT HAVE TO FUCK HER. I don't buy the theory of him getting aroused either because the atmosphere there was so tense it would be socially retarded to get aroused. What struck me was also the fact that there was hardly any dialogue, the guy went straight to the fondling before sticking it in. That was the part I couldn't forgive the asshole. Hanako was fucking crying. Fuck the fag. And he carried on. CARRIED ON AFTER SEEING HER TEARS.

And don't give me that cues crap. Hisao has been with Hanako long enough to know that she's not the type to say "no" in other people's faces. He knows her well enough for him not not do what he did. He just did it cause he was a bastard who de-evolved into a buffoon at the exact wrong time. There is no excuse.

All I know is, at one point Hisao makes a comment himself along the lines of "She didn't say 'no,' but she also didn't say 'yes.'"

Personally I'd call it awkward teenage hormones that led to something they'd both rather forget. Not rape.

Rivan wrote:His acting wasn't the best he could do, but it was easily in the scope of *natural*. You're even not being fair with him - he never had a sexual experience before and initially, he tried to do everything right (not rushing with penetration too much, using protection, etcetera, etc.).

I'd call shoving your dick all the way into a female virgin during your first attempt to penetrate her one of those massive fails that everyone should know better about.

I can see what people are annoyed by Hisao's actions, though. He felt something was off but just kept plodding along anyway. I really wish we'd been given some branching paths and interactivity during that sex scene, at least. I would've loved to try and finesse my way through it.

Lunar Archivist wrote:I'd call shoving your dick all the way into a female virgin during your first attempt to penetrate her one of those massive fails that everyone should know better about.

If all you know about sex is porn, then you might be forgiven for thinking that's the way it should be done every time.

But because of her principle psychology as well as her general feelings towards Hisao, she decided to fuck the consequences and fulfuill her "debt" to Hisao. This decision was further augmented by Hisao's little date with her and his small present to her. This is the determining factor that affirmed Hanako that Hisao isn't just treating her like a delicate doll but as his girlfriend. THE SEX HAS GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH WHETHER HISAO TREATED HER LIKE A REAL WOMAN. That's where the good/bad ending diversion happened.

It's a little more complicated than that. The little date and present could be used to explain that at least Hisao didn't see her as a fragile little sister, but it does little to make the distinction between "close friend" and "girlfriend". There was no doubt that Hisao and Hanako grew close. The two of them shared things with one another they hadn't even shown or told Lilly. But despite the closeness, Hisao never showed any signs of actual attraction to Hanako (at least none that Hanako caught), probably intentional on his part because he was afraid of scaring her off. Hanako, for her part, interpreted this as being friend zoned by Hisao. Even a straight "I love you" could easily be taken in multiple ways.

Therefore at the point of the sex scene, Hanako was just baring her inner feelings about her history and her mental fixtures caused by her previous bad experiences. She had no intention of sex. Maybe she took a risk with letting Hisao see her naked, but she didn't need him to fuck her just to prove to her that he could treat her like her girlfriend.

No, she wasn't just showing her scars to Hisao as a reply to him showing her the scar on his chest. Hanako herself later confirmed that sleeping with Hisao was what she intended to happen when she invited him to her room. That's why, after showing Hisao her scarring, she just stood there instead of immediately dressing up again. She wanted to get out of that friend zone. If Hisao had told her to get her clothes back on again, that would have been the definite indication to her that he wasn't interested in her as a woman, merely as a friend.

As for Hisao's handling of it...yeah, he wasn't the perfect gentleman, but I don't think it's fair to accuse him of acting like an unfeeling troglodyte. Neither Hisao nor Hanako were emotionally ready for the kind of intimacy that Hanako suddenly initiated and the complete lack of emotional and mental preparation played a big role in how things turned out in that scene. Most likely, Hisao was shocked into proceeding on auto-pilot while his mind was still trying to piece together what the hell was happening all of a sudden. He most likely knew deep down that pressing on was what was expected of him, but given to how his previous assumptions about Hanako were suddenly blown to pieces completely, I don't think it's too unrealistic to assume he was simply going through the motions without focussing on lovemaking technique while trying to digest how things suddenly came to this.

I agree with the argument that Hanako knew what she was doing. It's likely that someone who knows how to play chess also knows that standing naked in front of a normal, hot-blooded heterosexual male drives all logic and reason from his mind.

Guest Poster wrote:As for Hisao's handling of it...yeah, he wasn't the perfect gentleman, but I don't think it's fair to accuse him of acting like an unfeeling troglodyte. Neither Hisao nor Hanako were emotionally ready for the kind of intimacy that Hanako suddenly initiated and the complete lack of emotional and mental preparation played a big role in how things turned out in that scene. Most likely, Hisao was shocked into proceeding on auto-pilot while his mind was still trying to piece together what the hell was happening all of a sudden. He most likely knew deep down that pressing on was what was expected of him, but given to how his previous assumptions about Hanako were suddenly blown to pieces completely, I don't think it's too unrealistic to assume he was simply going through the motions without focussing on lovemaking technique while trying to digest how things suddenly came to this.

Bingo. This, along with the rest of your post, is a perfect assessment of what happened IMO. Nicely done.