Katawa Shoujo Forums

Heartless Wanderer wrote: The "problem" was lack of clarification and closure. Extended Cut gave us that, even if the ending concept itself didn't do it for everyone even after those holes were filled in.

Also, Indoctrination Theory would have been a bigger mindfuck, not least because it fucking required indoctrination to completely change its function during the last ten minutes of the game. All Indoctrination Theory was when you boil it down was unsatisfied fans in denial. They didn't like how canon ended up so they tried to convince themselves that there was a canonical loophole through which they could dump the canon ending into a furnace. It was wishful thinking, at best. Like your little "running joke" there. Let's entertain that for a second.

There's actually one major problem that stands out--and I am basing this on the ending minus the extended DLC--which may or may not appear if the fans didn't end up so outraged in the first place.

The introduction of a plot-significant character at the last minute, a 'Deus Ex machina'. It is a similarly bad move as adding a new point in the conclusion of a college paper.

Thankfully the extended DLC gave some clarity, though it is still a last-minute dodge by Bioware.

Heartless Wanderer wrote: What you suggest in the "Hisao really died at the end of Lilly's route" scenario is a textbook "But it was all a dream" ending. Do you have any idea what a tired, overdone, cliche, anathema piece of shit hackneyed cop-out that would be? Because it would be really tired, very overdone, incredibly cliche, UTTERLY anathema piece of shit hackneyed cop-out if it were true.

Thankfully, it's not. So we can all rest easy.

I don't think Lilly's ending was "too perfect" by any means. It starts with Hisao realizing that he fucked up far too late to do a goddamned thing about it and then further fucking up by giving himself a heart attack in the process of trying to fix things. That he survives (under much more likely circumstances than "he had a heart attack alone in the woods with a girl in the midst of winter," mind you) and has his chance to win back the girl in the end anyway is hardly "too perfect." If I had to pick a detail that seemed a bit cheesy it would be the presence of the music box in the hospital room, and that's just about all.

Also, I didn't see any problems being swept under the rug in the epilogue. Hell, if nothing else, Akira having to move to Scotland anyway put a bit of a damper on the mood even if I was happy to see she at least changed her mind about breaking up with her own boyfriend in the process. A nice touch of bittersweetness, there.

Also, they don't walk off into a sunset at all. Look at that ending art, it's clearly mid-day. What, is good weather a mark of melodrama, now? And like, the very last lines in the story basically say, "Yeah, we know there's probably going to be some more shit going down at some point down the line, but we'll deal with it when we get there." So yeah. It's actually not that perfect at all. It's just that happy moment of resolution that all romances aspire to. Resolution is sometimes mistakenly seen as an ending, where things are wrapped up and put away. But it's more about decisiveness, determination. It's something that is both the end of one thing and the beginning of another.

That's what Lilly's ending was, quite literally. Their resolution to move forward together. It's also what the other good endings were, and what any decent "good" ending is, really. It's just more blatantly spelled-out in Lilly's ending than it is in the others.

And I've been holding that in for a bit too long. Bleh. Rant Mode: Off.

Good points you made out there. Though I've answered some of that in the previous post and may have repeat the answer in another thread.

The 'walking off towards a sunset' is a figure of speech of how 'perfect' it all seemed to be, barring all problems that seemed to exist previously (primarily Lilly's that rests outside of Japan and in Scotland). It is similarly cliche as the 'dream ending'

On fan in denial, it could be that yours actually is.
Though to each of their own, different people different interpretation.

EDIT: ...You know, we really should use spoiler tags for this stuff.

Megumeru wrote: What about Lilly's parents? They won't stand still knowing this--she's still the daughter of the Satous afterall.

It's rather blandly implied that they aren't happy, when Akira references them as being "out for her blood." I got the sense that some of their frustration with Lilly might have been projected onto Akira, the only one of the two sisters they had any direct control over anymore. But at this point it's peripheral. We didn't have a picture of their personalities beyond a few lines of dialogue with Lilly's mom over the phone, who actually seemed quite normal and good-natured. That this is treated as a non-issue is actually relevant to the point: Lilly is making her own decisions, whether her family likes them or not. Akira had reasons for going along with the summons, but Lilly had no incentive beyond a conflicted desire to be close to her family again, something that is neither her sole driving ambition nor something that can only be accomplished by moving to Scotland in the first place.

So did Lilly permanently break off? Did she argue about it? Come to some sort of understanding with them? We never find out because the net result is always the same and in the end the point is that Lilly made a choice and they couldn't have stopped her if they tried.

What about Akira's boyfriend suddenly being able to leave to Scotland with Akira? How does that work?

It's not that he couldn't have left before. It's that Akira was in the mindframe that she couldn't have both her boyfriend and her career at the time. A "you can't have your cake and eat it, too" kind of logic. There's a veiled implication in there that Lilly's and Hisao's resolution prompted Akira to try for a compromise where she could both take the job in Scotland and keep her boyfriend, so obviously they talked and agreed to move on to a new life overseas together. You could say that Lilly's resolution was the inspiration that led to Akira's.

It's like a mirror-image of what Hisao and Lilly just resolved on their own playing out in the background. And it's not implausible in the slightest so I really don't see what's worth criticizing here.

Personally I believe it to be swept under the rug after the climax and after the ending. Lilly learned to rely in others, but that is just one of the answered questions out of a few that were left out.

I thought you believed Hisao died horrible and painfully on the floor of the airport?

Wait. Wait. I thought it ended too perfectly with everything wrapped up. Now you're telling me that the ending doesn't wrap everything up? So, which is it?

What about Lilly's parents? They won't stand still knowing this--she's still the daughter of the Satous afterall.

Who's to say they won't stand for it? We know nothing about them as characters.

For that matter, the way it was presented in the game, it always seemed as though Lilly had a choice whether she was going to obey them or not.

What about Akira's boyfriend suddenly being able to leave to Scotland with Akira? How does that work?

Japanese people aren't required to stay in Japan their entire lives, you know. They are allowed to leave the country.

Why can't they do that the first time before the airport scene?

Nothing ever said they couldn't. They just didn't. Maybe she just needed Hisao and Lilly to show her that love can over come all obstacles, or maybe the extra time she had in Japan waiting for Hisao at the hospital gave her more time to think it over. Who knows?

There you go again, provoking hostility which doesn't exist in the first place.
You might want to read the question I jokingly tried to answer before taking things seriously

Yes. I know you were joking. You've tell the exact same joke constantly and wasn't funny the first time.

"The real ending is stupid. It ends happily and that isn't realistic. My ending is much better. Hisao dies horribly. Aren't I funny?"


And if you think I'm being too hostile, just pretend I stuck a couple of smilie faces in this post somewhere.

Heartless Wanderer wrote:EDIT: ...You know, we really should use spoiler tags for this stuff.

...I would like to reiterate...

Megumeru wrote:canonicaly in my interpretation it is more of a bittersweet ending with everything ended up as a figment of imagination minutes before Hisao died

I'm...Not sure you know what that words means. Canonically, your interpretation is irrelevant because the canon ending doesn't have Hisao dying or imagining anything. Canonically, it ends exactly the same as every other route: Problems are solved, people are happy, future might suck, future might be okay. Also, canonically, that bitch totally works for the mafia.

And Oddball makes a good point. It's not funny because it's not a joke. Jokes have setups and punchlines. This is just you constantly bringing up, at every opportunity, how you prefer a fanfiction over the canonical ending. It's almost like a meme you're singlehandedly beating to death. It was a fun little possibility the first time but then, Skyrim jokes were funny the first few times too. They're not now.

@Heartless Wanderer: It's a topic about Lilly's route. If someone hasn't finished it and still willingly enters a topic discussing it, they pretty much deserve spoilers. Just like people who watch a review of a movie they never saw. If we were discussing spoilers in some other topic where it wouldn't be expected, it'd be a different story, but...

Also, canonically, that bitch totally works for the mafia.

Well, I suppose if you trust Kenji as a reliable source of information....

Oddball wrote:

Also, canonically, that bitch totally works for the mafia.

Well, I suppose if you trust Kenji as a reliable source of information....

Totally reliable. I mean, the guy never has to share his pizza. EVER. Dat pizza stealth, man. Clearly a master ninja. Master ninja is like...Just a step below Mr. Miyagi. Are you telling me you wouldn't trust Mr. Miyagi?

Xanatos wrote:Just like people who watch a review of a movie they never saw.

I know that you're only referring to specific kinds of reviews, but I'd like to remind you that a lot of people do go to reviews to find out whether that movie is worth their time in the first place.

In any case, it's not about who deserves what. It's about courtesy.

I knew something like this is bound to happen.

OtakuNinja, I should slap you hard for dragging me into this
...and the last few posts makes me feel like reading a CIA file or something with all that black bars

Grab your popcorn everyone~!

Oddball wrote:

Personally I believe it to be swept under the rug after the climax and after the ending. Lilly learned to rely in others, but that is just one of the answered questions out of a few that were left out.

I thought you believed Hisao died horrible and painfully on the floor of the airport?

Wait. Wait. I thought it ended too perfectly with everything wrapped up. Now you're telling me that the ending doesn't wrap everything up? So, which is it?

Did I, in any occasion, mentioned that the ending wrapped everything up? Nope. If I remember correctly, I said this before:
"Do tell me how everything is wrapped up in Lilly's route"

So did I say that everything is wrapped up? I don't think so.

What I meant is the presentation of the ending or how convenient the solution is that made it too perfect. Think about it this way...
1. Lilly and Akira are demanded to return to Scotland by their parents.
2. Akira clearly stated that she's breaking up since she can't take her boyfriend with him
3. At the end of the epilogue, somehow she can take her boyfriend abroad and all the problems with their family disappears.

You don't see anything "odd" (heh) in this? Let's assume that Lilly and Akira are not forced to return to Scotland in the first place, where would that lead? Would Lilly and Akira pull through all that trouble that leads to the airport, or--considering their status as what I believe to be permanent residents--would they stay knowing they have their partners in Japan?

Obvious answer isn't it? They won't even go through the trouble and ignore them in the first place.

Now let's say that they are forced to return. Does that mean it's mandatory to return to Scotland regardless of the situation? Yes, which then puts us in the ending of Lilly's route and how it plays out. Now with that laid out, we can move to the other one to discuss: the parents

Oddball wrote:Who's to say they won't stand for it?

Exactly, which is why I find the ending too perfect; as if the problem somehow disappeared or 'swept under the rug' (though that isn't the only one; we'll get to that further down). As much as I look at it, there's a problem that exist in Lilly's route between her and her family that is as conspicuous as a phallus statue during Kanamara festival in Japan (if you don't know, look it up). This problem is stressed throughout her route by Lilly herself, only to suddenly 'disappear' when we hit the epilogue (leaving us with Akira and her boyfriend flying off to Scotland). One of the plausible solution to this question is that Lilly's problem revolves around whether she 'returns to Scotland or not', which then pits us back to the point: is it mandatory?

again, back to the beginning. If her parents runs with a carefree attitude, then it can be assumed that Lilly and Akira wouldn't even bother to go into the trouble that is reflected in the few final scenes of the ending. But if her parents ordered and said that it is mandatory to return, then they wouldn't have much choice now do they?

Oddball wrote:For that matter, the way it was presented in the game, it always seemed as though Lilly had a choice whether she was going to obey them or not.

This is plausible.

Now think as if you're Lilly's parent over in Scotland and finds that your youngest daughter decides to stay in Japan because she has a boyfriend there. How pissed would you be? Do note, we are talking about a family that has ties to Asian culture and from my experience, they'd be mighty pissed--probably enough to fly over there and drag you back.

Oddball wrote:

What about Akira's boyfriend suddenly being able to leave to Scotland with Akira? How does that work?

Japanese people aren't required to stay in Japan their entire lives, you know. They are allowed to leave the country.

You don't say?
I'm talking about the bigger picture here. How long is Akira's stay in Scotland? Permanently or momentary? We never know, but it is assumed that she's staying there permanently which is a legit reason why she broke up with her boyfriend in the first place (long distance relationship requires great perseverance and is difficult to maintain). Do you have any idea how difficult it is to obtain a permanent resident visa if you're a citizen of another country and how long it takes? A simpler one, what about a work permit? How long does it take and how difficult is it?

Let's consider this:
1. Hisao enters Yamaku during early summer, so it is safe to assume that all storyline takes place during the particular season.
2.The end of Lilly's timeline extends to the end of summer--possibly to early fall (based on the CG art of the epilogue).
3. The little field trip with Lilly and Hanako takes likely takes place during summer vacation. In Japan, summer vacation lasts from late July to early September lasting about 2 weeks.
4. Lilly's parents demanded their daughters to return to Scotland possibly during late summer, to which they tried to comply near the end of the season (but failed to do so considering the incident at the airport).
5. Hisao is hospitalized. For how long, it's uncertain but most likely 1-2 weeks that leads up until the ending.

Now then, with that in consideration we go back to Akira's boyfriend problem again. By experience, obtaining a Visa takes approximately one month--two if the officer who works in the embassy is a douche. When Hisao left the hospital--assuming he is hospitalized for one week--the date of the ending could possibly be around early-mid September and let's say that there's an unexplained one-week gap in the story, that would total to about 2-3 weeks which is less than the regular time to obtain a visa (not to mention one that would let you stay there permanently or work there).

There is even less time available if he's applying for permanent resident.

Okay, let's say he already has a visitor visa prior. Would he fly there back and forth and spend billions of yen for that sake? Not to mention he won't be able to stay permanently.

You see, there's a lot of unanswered question and 'surprise' solution that it almost seemed that the ending itself is a giant 'deus ex machina' that somehow eliminates all the problems and issues that exist in the final parts of the story either by causing you to forget it or not to consider it--don't get me started with the taxi ride.

At least it isn't as big as the god-child from ME-universe--that drove me into rage. Thank Bioware for that extended DLC and closure, though it still left a bitter taste.

Oddball wrote:

Why can't they do that the first time before the airport scene?

Nothing ever said they couldn't. They just didn't. Maybe she just needed Hisao and Lilly to show her that love can over come all obstacles, or maybe the extra time she had in Japan waiting for Hisao at the hospital gave her more time to think it over. Who knows?

This satisfies my question, so I won't iterate it any further.

Though refer to the above post about 'the boyfriend problem'.

Oddball wrote: Yes. I know you were joking. You've tell the exact same joke constantly and wasn't funny the first time.

"The real ending is stupid. It ends happily and that isn't realistic. My ending is much better. Hisao dies horribly. Aren't I funny?"


And if you think I'm being too hostile, just pretend I stuck a couple of smilie faces in this post somewhere.

Buddy, did I ever say that my ending is much better? I don't think so. I just happen to say 'the ending is silly', but you just so happen to interpret it that way and swallow it like a bitter medicine then complain about it. It is a running joke after all--similar to how some people scream 'OMG Hisao raped Hanako', in case you're wondering.

Have you heard of Schrodinger's cat?

It's almost the same as how we interpret the ending. Let's say that the 'box' is the ending and the 'cat' is Hisao.

In one 'box', the 'cat' lives which gives us the canon ending. In another 'box', the 'cat' died which spawned that fun little fan-theory you're so fixated to eliminate.
Is the 'cat' alive and dead at the same time? Yes, it is (if we consider parallel universe theories and whatnot--I won't bother you on that subject)

So is the idea that Hisao is dead in the ending wrong? Nope. How about if he's alive? Nope. Both are correct and it falls in the range of how different people interpret the ending, to which in this case you're familiar what I interpret it as humorously. I believe I've posted about how I came up with it in the first place...

of course, you're free to see it as the happy ending. No one's stopping you in the first place, so here's that flashy-thing again

Xanatos wrote: Also, canonically, that bitch totally works for the mafia.

Which actually provides a much eye-popping revelation to Hisao post-epilogue.

two words:
cement shoes


good God, now I really want a KS After-story or something close...

Megumeru wrote:So did I say that everything is wrapped up? I don't think so.

So is the idea that Hisao is dead in the ending wrong? Nope.

"The story ends with Lilly and Hisao walking off towards the sunset, all problems somehow magically resolved"...Kinda did.

And that cat analogy doesn't really work for one simple reason: The idea that Hisao is dead in the ending IS wrong. Stories have canon. And the canon for this ending does not include his death. Everyone's free to enjoy their interpretations but those interpretations that aren't based in canon (barring open-ended stuff where canon leaves empty space specifically for you to interpret it, which this end does not do) will still be officially wrong.

At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, it's like the Holocaust. Some say it happened, some are deniers. Are both somehow right because it's just how different people interpret the history? No. One is right and one is wrong because the canon (in this case, actual history) establishes one as right and one as wrong. The deniers are still free to deny but they're also still wrong.


Also, I found the box with the live cat in it and shot him too. Bite me, Schrödinger.

Yeah, the idea that Hisao died and the rest of the game was a hallucination or something is by no means an "interpretation." An interpretation takes what's there and reads for meaning. In order to see Hisao's death in this ending, you really need to read that death into the story, which isn't the same as it actually being a valid implication of the story itself.

The idea that Hisao died at that point is a good "what if" scenario for fanficking purposes, but nothing more. It is not canonical. At all. That is not my opinion, that is the ending itself.

I don't think Lilly's story ended perfectly. I think Lilly was forced to make a choice, a really hard one. I think she burned some major bridges with her family by not going back. The fact that Akira is now able to bring along her boy-toy to Scotland probably indicates that her parents wised-up and relented so that they didn't lose both daughters.

The only family that Lilly has left in Japan now is Jigoro, Shizune, and Hideki. That's pretty far from perfect, especially as she is losing Akira. That also puts Hisao in a pretty tight spot -- he has to follow through and make sure Lilly never regrets choosing him over her immediate family.

Xanatos wrote:Shizune rules, Lilly runs into walls.

You traitor...

Megumeru wrote:OtakuNinja, I should slap you hard for dragging me into this
...and the last few posts makes me feel like reading a CIA file or something with all that black bars

I already did. Multiple times. But not for dragging you in. I slapped myself for dragging everybody else in with you.

It's the Kenji Files.

shirolong wrote:Your thoughts and opinions? Discussions?

Lilly's route was the one I decided to go with the first time, and it looks like I made the right choice. It was a emotional roller-coaster ride, but very enjoyable and heartwarming. My heart dropped (no pun intended) when I realized Lilly was leaving Hisao and Hanako for Scotland. I couldn't bear the fact of Hisao and Lilly leaving each other, so I was cheering loudly (a little too loud it turns out hehe) when they reunited *sniff*. I'll be honest, I cried, but those were tears of joy damnit! The whole route was endearing, and I might opt for a second run-through in fact! It might be a bit hasty seeing as I have only finished Lilly's at the moment, but I'm pretty confident in saying that Lilly's route will be the best one out of all of them. Going to take a break between routes, as I don't want to rush through things (I think I'll pick Hanako's route after this later, but to be honest Lilly's route is going to be hard to top after all that), but I must say kudos to the dev team for such a fantastic experience!

Lilly was my first playthrough. Lilly fucked with my heart pretty bad. There were at least a half dozen seperate episodes of violent mantears involved. I too once believed that Lilly would forever come out on top as my favourite.

Then I played Hanako's route. And while Lilly has a better story, perhaps, Hanako has stolen the lead spot as my favourite character. So don't get too caught up in such absolutes.

Goddamnit, Fox, when will you learn to not reply to first-page posts.
My emotions stand, though, so everyone can just step over this on their way to legitimate conversations.

FoxtrotZero wrote:

shirolong wrote:Your thoughts and opinions? Discussions?

Lilly's route was the one I decided to go with the first time, and it looks like I made the right choice. It was a emotional roller-coaster ride, but very enjoyable and heartwarming. My heart dropped (no pun intended) when I realized Lilly was leaving Hisao and Hanako for Scotland. I couldn't bear the fact of Hisao and Lilly leaving each other, so I was cheering loudly (a little too loud it turns out hehe) when they reunited *sniff*. I'll be honest, I cried, but those were tears of joy damnit! The whole route was endearing, and I might opt for a second run-through in fact! It might be a bit hasty seeing as I have only finished Lilly's at the moment, but I'm pretty confident in saying that Lilly's route will be the best one out of all of them. Going to take a break between routes, as I don't want to rush through things (I think I'll pick Hanako's route after this later, but to be honest Lilly's route is going to be hard to top after all that), but I must say kudos to the dev team for such a fantastic experience!

Lilly was my first playthrough. Lilly fucked with my heart pretty bad. There were at least a half dozen seperate episodes of violent mantears involved. I too once believed that Lilly would forever come out on top as my favourite.

Then I played Hanako's route. And while Lilly has a better story, perhaps, Hanako has stolen the lead spot as my favourite character. So don't get too caught up in such absolutes.

Goddamnit, Fox, when will you learn to not reply to first-page posts.
My emotions stand, though, so everyone can just step over this on their way to legitimate conversations.

Woah, that's funny.

We have the exact same reasoning.

But in all honesty, I agree with you completely. Lily's route was much, much better, but Hanako was more endearing as a character, in my opinion.