Yamaku Book Club (20220124 Dish Washing)

[Blasphemy]

Yeah maybe I'll give it another go as well. Have read it three times already though I think. Really interested in the discussion as this one is among the very top KS fanfics for me.

[brythain]

I thought this piece was one of the best I read, when I decided to run through the whole backlog of fanfic here. I have that ambivalence for it that writers sometimes get when something is particularly good — you love it because it's so well-done; you feel sad because you know you can't do it so well. A work that retains its melancholy freshness over time, even after reading it several times.

[Warning: may temporarily break a browser window because of length. Just page forward and then back if this happens.]

[Yukarin]

I just got done reading Closure and that was hella deep. I liked it.

[Sea]

Shortening discussion till the 24th because y'all are quick.

[dewelar]

Shortening discussion till the 24th because y'all are quick.

I think it's mostly that a lot of folks have read this one, since (a) it was one of the first ones to come out after the game was complete (even if it's based on Act One only), and (b) it's on a lot of recommendation lists. This was my second time reading it, too, and I'm also looking forward to the discussion!

[brythain]

It's about 9am on the morning of the 24th here…

Closure shows us a Hisao stuck in the sadness of a very tragic past, with a future that's moving on while his heart stays behind. The lovely Shizune he has lost—if that's not bad enough, he's also lost their child. He's lost everything that's meaningful. And then, the one person who extends him a lifeline of sorts appears… Misha, who has suffered the same loss from a different direction.

It's genuinely moving as you see two very much weakened, desperate (in the literal sense of 'without hope') people attempt to develop faith, hope and love again. Each of them would be broken on their own; together, they have a fighting chance to not only respect Shizune's memory but to move on as she'd probably have wanted them to. Throughout the story, you see them dirty, hurt and vulnerable. There's sweat and grime in a physical as well as emotional sense.

Their relationship ends up balanced because they are equally hurt; the author manages to balance the unequal kinds of grief somehow. You can imagine how they may possibly end up pair-bonded at first by their mutual friendship with Shizune, but later by mutual respect and genuine friendship for each other. Such feels, and the possibility of a long-delayed future.

[hyroglyphixs]

Can't help but chime in again for this piece. I re-read it again last night, and it definitely was just as good as I remember. The writing itself was superb.

In regards to the actual story, I thought it was very well done. Obviously, some elements of Misha are left out (this fic is only based on Act 1 right?) but having two obviously broken adults come together allows a very engaging story where the reader is subconsciously cheering for them. I particularly liked the mini-conflict that was brought up (the video) as well as the very adorable ending.

All in all, one of the best KS fics out there.

[dewelar]

Well, if everyone's going to jump in before discussion is officially open, I might as well get my own thoughts out since they're fresh.

As a disclaimer, I will note that, in order to properly read stories that came out after Act One but before full release, I have decided to read them without thinking of them as actual KS stories. For Closure, that is particularly relevant, because not only is it based on Act One, most of it takes place several years after the VN, and the characters have changed so much as to be nearly unrecognizable as the characters I know. In fact, it was this very fic that turned me off of Act-One-only stories in the first place.

The biggest piece I disliked about this story is that, although it's not entirely clear, it reads like alt-Hisao and alt-Shizune got married (maybe?) and were expecting a child while they were still in high school. Also, it seems that if there was a marriage, it was done without the knowledge of alt-Shizune's father. The whole bit where he told alt-Hisao that alt-Shizune was planning to abort the baby...ugh, that would even be beneath Jigoro, I think. Congratulations on making alt-Shizune's father more hateworthy than Jigoro, I guess. And it played the star-crossed lovers with the over-romanticizing of the significant other who dies young straight as an arrow. That part of the story made me cringe like nobody's business.

However, I liked the story of alt-Hisao and alt-Misha. Part of what brythain said above echoes what I thought was good about their relationship:

It's genuinely moving as you see two very much weakened, desperate (in the literal sense of 'without hope') people attempt to develop faith, hope and love again. Each of them would be broken on their own; together, they have a fighting chance [...] and the possibility of a long-delayed future.

The Shiina/Misha dichotomy was played very well, and I liked the group date scene and the aftermath thereof quite a bit. I also liked the dynamic at work in alt-Hisao's workplace, and among alt-Misha's and her coworkers (although the bit where the shy girl asks Hisao to help her came off as particularly trite). The weakest part of that plot was actually the sorta-conflict over the porn videos. Alt-Hisao's internal monologue during their first discussion after he found out about them was suspension-breaking for me. It just didn't feel real to me.

So, I liked this story better than I did the first time I read it, but overall I didn't think it was all that good -- decent, yes, but nothing special. The thing is, it's downright unreadable if I don't take myself out of thinking it's related to KS. I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but so be it.

[Mahorfeus]

I agree with pretty much everything dewelar said. I know, lazy, right? But it's true. There's just one extra thing I have to add to my list of woes. Particularly regarding the source of Hisao's despair.

Shizune's death has to be the most melodramatic thing I have ever read on this entire site. She spontaneously dies from an aneurysm, while giving her valedictorian speech (I hope I'm not making this one up), and while pregnant with Hisao's child. I know the author needed something to happen that would absolutely destroy Hisao's character; the author himself suggested that the baby's mortality was necessary for that reason. I just can't help but feel that it was way overkill. Shizune's death would have sufficed, and under less extenuating circumstances at that. I feel that Misha's deep end was similarly exaggerated, but I won't go too much into that.

Asides from that, I thought that this fic did an excellent job portraying the "healing" process.

[ProfAllister]

(Despair not! I am still alive and still writing!)

Been a while since I chimed on one of these (or on much of anything), but this is definitely a story worth chiming in on.

I'm willing to say, without qualifications, that this is one of the best works posted here.

That being said, it's not perfect.

The biggest failing is probably the most controversial - it has no business being a KS fanfic. It stands on its own, and the forced tethers that lash it to KS only serve to drag the whole thing down. We have a beautiful story, if a bit overwrought at times. but, to be perfectly blunt, the KS connection adds nothing. I maintain that it would have been a much better story if it had nothing to do with KS.

And the two other objections I have have been voiced so often they're pretty unremarkable themselves:

- As mentioned above, the details of Shizune's death were a bit much. It lacked moderation. You don't need to go full-on "Book of Job" to convince the audience that your protagonist isn't just a whiny bitch. It helps, admitted, but there's a happy medium in there somewhere.

- Misha's porn career. I don't have any objection to its being - I object to the approach of "It was just a little bit of porn. And just with one guy. And he was a bit of an asshole. And he pressured me into doing it." It cheapens Hisao's coming to grips with it, it insists on keeping the girl on a pedestal where even her failings are saintly, and (the trickiest bit) it gives the impression that of course she would regret it. Only a slutty bitch-whore could ever do something like porn and not have any regrets or misgivings. You can have whatever opinions you will about porn - that's not the issue at hand. What matters is you need to be willing to let your characters be human, even if that means they willingly engage in something you find distasteful.

To be clear, I'm not saying that she should have been a dedicated porn star with no regrets; I'm saying that the intense focus on that raft of qualifiers cheapens the conflict. Specifically, I think it's the fact that they came post-resolution. If her "excuses" were part of Hisao's inner struggle and conflict when coming to grips with the situation, it probably could have worked better. As it is, we have Hisao saying "I love you, even if you are a slutty bitch-whore," to which Misha responds, "Thanks, Hisao, that means a lot. But the good news is that I'm actually an innocent pure angel - it was all my evil terrible ex-boyfriend. We can bond over our seething hatred for him together, okay~?"

In conclusion, it's not perfect by any stretch, but it's definitely on my list of "must-reads."

[dewelar]

I'm willing to say, without qualifications, that this is one of the best works posted here.

Why?

[Velitation]

I'm willing to say, without qualifications, that this is one of the best works posted here.

Why?

It is because the characters in this story are actually "better" characters than their KS counterparts. (Ok, put down the pitchforks for a second ).

Now, what I mean by "better" is that the author has put in immaculate detail to their personalities.

From reading the first section, I had a clear picture of the sombre alt-Hisao: A man that had little reason to keep going with the life he built. The theme becomes more evident with following passages that describe his avoidance of taking on his own internal issues and becoming a workaholic to compensate. In addition, those characteristics pop up again and again with his meeting with "Shiina." In my opinion, alt-Hisao feels more fleshed out, and that's just from the first half.

As for alt-Misha, the author carefully brought her into the story once we had enough background on alt-Hisao. With attention to detail for appearance and body language, the author made an organic character than worked well... for the most part.

However, ProfAllister alluded to the fact that this story is held back because it is a fan fiction, and I wholeheartedly agree. The KS background of the characters can be almost taken out completely, and you're still left with a decent set of characters and plot. I guess that is what makes this fan fiction stand out on its own. Again, just in my opinion.

The story isn't perfect by any stretch either. Frankly, the plot doesn't need to be flawless in order to evoke the emotional response. That being said, the whole tragedy background was over the top, didn't seem very believable in a realistic setting, as many have mentioned here.

All in all, great characterization and a steady plot make Closure a worthwhile read, but the characters themselves are not anywhere close to the ones we remember from KS (even though I recognize this fic is Act 1 based, there's still enough direction to be able to make some semblance of the characters).

[dewelar]

I'm willing to say, without qualifications, that this is one of the best works posted here.

Why?

It is because the characters in this story are actually "better" characters than their KS counterparts. (Ok, put down the pitchforks for a second ).

Nah, I'm not necessarily even going to disagree. The problem is that they are supposed to be their KS counterparts, and even based on Act One, they do not behave in character. By that metric, this story is pretty much an abject failure. It reminds me of the stories I've read of Harlan Ellison's original version of "City on the Edge of Forever", except that this story never went through the rewrite process that might have made it great.

However, ProfAllister alluded to the fact that this story is held back because it is a fan fiction, and I wholeheartedly agree. The KS background of the characters can be almost taken out completely, and you're still left with a decent set of characters and plot. I guess that is what makes this fan fiction stand out on its own. Again, just in my opinion.

Bingo: "[A] decent set of characters and plot". Remember the original claim: "without qualifications, [...] this is one of the best works posted here." Is the state of KS fanfiction really so lousy that "decent" is enough to propel a work into the top tier? I respectfully disagree. Perhaps the good Professor is using a much broader definition of "one of the best" than I am? I might put this story in, say, the top 30 or so KS fanfictions that have been posted to these boards - and that's just the ones I've read.

The story isn't perfect by any stretch either. Frankly, the plot doesn't need to be flawless in order to evoke the emotional response.

No argument here. However, is that because we're attaching our feelings about Our Characters to this story that, in point of fact, isn't really about them? If so, that's cheating.

All in all, great characterization and a steady plot make Closure a worthwhile read, but the characters themselves are not anywhere close to the ones we remember from KS (even though I recognize this fic is Act 1 based, there's still enough direction to be able to make some semblance of the characters).

And that's the problem. In a case like this, you cannot ignore the context of the story in order to declare it great, because it badly misses the mark for which it claims to be aiming. You can't ignore the fact that it contains the elements that everyone agrees drag it down, because they're there, they're integral to the plot and the characters, and the work as a whole suffers greatly for it.

[Velitation]

Nah, I'm not necessarily even going to disagree. The problem is that they are supposed to be their KS counterparts, and even based on Act One, they do not behave in character. By that metric, this story is pretty much an abject failure. It reminds me of the stories I've read of Harlan Ellison's original version of "City on the Edge of Forever", except that this story never went through the rewrite process that might have made it great.

Now you're reminding me of a certain fan fiction adaptation that is coming to theatres in 2015.

Bingo: "[A] decent set of characters and plot". Remember the original claim: "without qualifications, [...] this is one of the best works posted here." Is the state of KS fanfiction really so lousy that "decent" is enough to propel a work into the top tier? I respectfully disagree. Perhaps the good Professor is using a much broader definition of "one of the best" than I am? I might put this story in, say, the top 30 or so KS fanfictions that have been posted to these boards - and that's just the ones I've read.

Sure, but the supplemental material helps the story in some ways. We had gotten flashbacks that helped elucidate the whole situation (mind you, that in itself is problematic ).

No argument here. However, is that because we're attaching our feelings about Our Characters to this story that, in point of fact, isn't really about them? If so, that's cheating.

I would say that is a common trait among most fan fiction stories, but in this case you have a point in that the characters really only share a name with the ones we are familiar with. Now I'm thinking that this whole story is exploitation on our feelings hahahaha.

And that's the problem. In a case like this, you cannot ignore the context of the story in order to declare it great, because it badly misses the mark for which it claims to be aiming. You can't ignore the fact that it contains the elements that everyone agrees drag it down, because they're there, they're integral to the plot and the characters, and the work as a whole suffers greatly for it.

Yeah, definitely now feel after reading your comments that this was a pseudo-Misha route for the sake of attracting attention that it would not receive otherwise (in other forms of writing). It is a shame since it is well written.

[dewelar]

No argument here. However, is that because we're attaching our feelings about Our Characters to this story that, in point of fact, isn't really about them? If so, that's cheating.

I would say that is a common trait among most fan fiction stories

Yeah, I agree with this.

And that's the problem. In a case like this, you cannot ignore the context of the story in order to declare it great, because it badly misses the mark for which it claims to be aiming. You can't ignore the fact that it contains the elements that everyone agrees drag it down, because they're there, they're integral to the plot and the characters, and the work as a whole suffers greatly for it.

Yeah, definitely now feel after reading your comments that this was a pseudo-Misha route for the sake of attracting attention that it would not receive otherwise (in other forms of writing). It is a shame since it is well written.

Well, at least decently written . In an earlier edition of this book club, the Professor mentioned that this was one of the best in the category of "KS fanfics that shouldn't be KS fanfics" out there. I would definitely agree with that.