Katawa Shoujo Forums

bhtooefr wrote:

Zarys wrote:If Hanako is her love-interest, I'm curious to see her character development (I've always been surprised that someone so lacking in social relations has such strict sexual norms or have never confused at any time sincere friendship with love, and imagine that she can falling in love with a girl who get a connexion with her in the manner of Hisao don't seems too OOC for me; whatever that might give her the impression of being even more different from the others, although the social conformism is not the deep justification of her asociality*) ; if she isn't, the fact to be so close to a homosexual girl could be also interesting. (I don't think she is homophobic, but it would probably not be trivial)

Mind you, it's my headcanon that Hanako actually is pansexual - there's some signs that I choose to interpret as her being sexually attracted to women (specifically, a certain older Satou, although I actually think she ISN'T attracted to Lilly) as well as men, and she's demonstrated in the ending of her canon route that if she loves someone, she gives zero fucks about cultural norms (kissing in public being a huge taboo in Japan).

Hanako might have trouble at first with the implications of having a girlfriend, but eventually she'd get over it, I think.

Yeah, she is afraid of people's reactions (because she can hurts her but she don't really care of their opinions.) but she don't seems to really have social norms

But signs in game that she is attracted by the both sex and Akira ? say more !

Honestly, I'm bothered that people conclude things about characters based on little evidence--or at most the circumstantial kind. It's fine deciding--for the sake of a deviation designed to explore such a situation--that a character's preferences can accommodate different kinds of sexuality--be it homosexual, pan-sexual, asexual, or bisexual--but claiming those dispositions already exist as part of the character without offering a source or explanation thereof is another thing entirely.

I'm curious about where you got the impression that Hanako may be 'pan-sexual', based on the source material. Nothing I can recall of Hanako's character indicates to me that she has anything more than perhaps a passing interest in women, except in seeking the approval of her peers--namely that of Lilly, and Akira to a lesser extent.

The only thing I can think of that may indicate a possible tendency toward bisexuality or pan-sexuality in Hanako is her somewhat codependent relationship with Lilly. However, there are mitigating factors that created an opportunity for that relationship to develop.

Firstly, although Lilly moved into the dorms sometime after they were already friends, she and Hanako now share a hallway, living straight across from each other, which further facilitates their codependency. Secondly, Lilly is congenial, diplomatic, almost rigidly kind, and soft-spoken, all of which would make a relationship with skittish Hanako easier to establish. Thirdly, Lilly is blind, therefore Hanako needn't feel apprehensive about her scars while in her presence.

Fourthly, and I expect this may be controversial, due to Lilly's blindness, Hanako can feel a sense of being useful, which is a theme that runs through her route. One of her more dramatic admissions referenced her feeling like a useless person, but, through guiding Lilly, Hanako shares something in common with Misha, becoming Lilly's eyes rather than Shizune's voice. It isn't a complete existence, of course, and it may seem sad by most standards--being reduced to a seeing-eye dog--but, from her perspective, it's better than being the useless person she thinks she has become.

I'm not sure where else you may have gotten the idea...

I was just going to let it go to PM to stop cluttering up this thread, but might as well post the rationale.

We'll start with that post, which is admittedly stretching things a bit: http://ks.renai.us/viewtopic.php?f=13&t ... 98#p187298

And then, why pansexual specifically? If one accepts Hanako being attracted to cisgender women as well as cisgender men, her mentalities about everything fairly quickly lead to her being inclusive of (and possibly even sympathizing with, even if she has trouble comprehending why someone would be that way) transgender and genderqueer people. And, I honestly think that she finds herself attracted to people who respect her as an equal, regardless of what they identify as or what they were assigned at birth.

Helbereth wrote:Honestly, I'm bothered that people conclude things about characters based on little evidence--or at most the circumstantial kind. It's fine deciding--for the sake of a deviation designed to explore such a situation--that a character's preferences can accommodate different kinds of sexuality--be it homosexual, pan-sexual, asexual, or bisexual--but claiming those dispositions already exist as part of the character without offering a source or explanation thereof is another thing entirely.

I'm curious about where you got the impression that Hanako may be 'pan-sexual', based on the source material. Nothing I can recall of Hanako's character indicates to me that she has anything more than perhaps a passing interest in women, except in seeking the approval of her peers--namely that of Lilly, and Akira to a lesser extent.

The only thing I can think of that may indicate a possible tendency toward bisexuality or pan-sexuality in Hanako is her somewhat codependent relationship with Lilly. However, there are mitigating factors that created an opportunity for that relationship to develop.

Firstly, although Lilly moved into the dorms sometime after they were already friends, she and Hanako now share a hallway, living straight across from each other, which further facilitates their codependency. Secondly, Lilly is congenial, diplomatic, almost rigidly kind, and soft-spoken, all of which would make a relationship with skittish Hanako easier to establish. Thirdly, Lilly is blind, therefore Hanako needn't feel apprehensive about her scars while in her presence.

Fourthly, and I expect this may be controversial, due to Lilly's blindness, Hanako can feel a sense of being useful, which is a theme that runs through her route. One of her more dramatic admissions referenced her feeling like a useless person, but, through guiding Lilly, Hanako shares something in common with Misha, becoming Lilly's eyes rather than Shizune's voice. It isn't a complete existence, of course, and it may seem sad by most standards--being reduced to a seeing-eye dog--but, from her perspective, it's better than being the useless person she thinks she has become.

I'm not sure where else you may have gotten the idea...

Eh, remember that this is a thread about a F​​/F romance with the possibility that Hanako will be the love interest; and I have only said that in this case, it's will be a audacious character devellopment but the least OOC for me. (compared to other main KS characters)

I don't think that Hanako is pansexual in the canon (at least because after having talked a bit with cpl_crud, I think this idea has never crossed his mind), but IF he had to be pansexual/bisexual, the explination that she can falling in love with someone treat her as a equal, no matter of the gender, is the most credible.


And this is not a disrespectful Lady to to argue about it here ?

(deadfic)

Blah, terminology for sexuality is complex. Thanks for the clarification. (And, yeah, I should've known that, too - a straight person who's attracted to a transgender person of the opposite gender is still straight, as an example of that...)

In any case, I'll stick with Hanako being pansexual in my headcanon by that definition as well - in my headcanon, she doesn't care, she likes who she likes regardless of their gender.

Edit: And for a topic change, I found a version of Bad Apple (with the lyrics from Cristina Vee's version, which are important for this) that I like better:

Lizz is a better vocalist on that song (she's able to pull off the high notes without obviously abusing autotune), and the fact that it's a music box version makes it have an interesting contrast with a certain cello suite by Bach, also played on a music box, does it not?

bhtooefr wrote:Blah, terminology for sexuality is complex. Thanks for the clarification.

Agreed! I try to stay out of these discussions for that very reason, so posts like Leaty's are very helpful to me. I'm very conscious of how I express myself, and misusing words mortifies me -- especially in print/electronic form, and on a topic like this it would be raised exponentially .

I believe the term you're looking for is 'shoujo-ai'.

(deadfic)

Indeed it does. Of course the phrase "Girl's Love" (in English) is sometimes used in Japan to mean the same thing as yuri. Girl's Love itself sounds somewhat pedophilic which is probably why English speakers instead started using the phrase "Shoujo Ai" (Girl's Love, basically).
I usually use "yuri" or sometimes "hot lesbian lovin'" when I've had a bit too much to drink.

Good to know! I'm certain that if I ever visited Japan, I'd be carted off to jail within the hour, having somehow asked for directions in such a way as to imply explicit pedophila at the destination.

Leaty wrote:

Blank Mage wrote:I believe the term you're looking for is 'shoujo-ai'.

I've heard that term actually has pedophilic implications in Japan. I'm not sure if it's true, but in general I don't use the phrase.

Wouldn't a more accurate term be 'woman-love' (I would try translating that to Japanese, but I'd probably just sound stupid). Girl-love (shoujo-ai) may have pedophilic connotations, but if you use an adult noun, shouldn't that issue be resolved?

Bear in mind that my knowledge of Japanese linguistics is extremely limited.

Helbereth wrote:

Leaty wrote:

Blank Mage wrote:I believe the term you're looking for is 'shoujo-ai'.

I've heard that term actually has pedophilic implications in Japan. I'm not sure if it's true, but in general I don't use the phrase.

Wouldn't a more accurate term be 'woman-love' (I would try translating that to Japanese, but I'd probably just sound stupid). Girl-love (shoujo-ai) may have pedophilic connotations, but if you use an adult noun, shouldn't that issue be resolved?

Bear in mind that my knowledge of Japanese linguistics is extremely limited.

I think a literal translation would be 'love of young females', which explains quite a bit.

Shoujo, as far as I understand it, is pretty similar to 'girl' in that it usually stops being used after the teen years. The other problem (and once again, limited understanding of the language) is it sounds more like "love of girls" than "love between girls".

The Japanese Wikipedia article on it has a section on how the media has been calling child rapist-murderers 少女愛者 shoujoaisha since 1989. The "love between girls" meaning is presented as specifically being related to the Yuri genre.

How about 同性愛 douseiai? It's the general term for homosexual love/homosexuality/homoeroticism of either sex, and the main character is clearly a girl.

Or 女性愛 joseiai, the closest I can think of to match Helbereth's idea. It's not a actually a word, though (the actual words use 同性愛 and would just look comically long if transliterated).