Katawa Shoujo Forums

ProfAllister wrote:Lilly is Worst Girl

You realize I have to cut you now, right?

Guest Poster wrote:I asked the devs once how much consideration the team spent on Japanese cultural mores in the story and the answer I got was that the team was overal more focussed on telling the story and portraying the characters the way they had them in their mind than to try and emulate a Japanese high school environment as realistically as possible.

This makes the most sense of anything in the thread so far. Remember the MST3K Mantra, folks.

brythain wrote:I've thought for some time that the best way out is to assume that Jigoro Hakamichi is insane (a wonderfully unspecific term) and then work backwards, asking -why- he is insane. Clearly, everyone who knows him feels it, but makes some sort of allowance for it, probably due to a backstory which we are free to attempt but which we don't have enough evidence to completely reconstruct.

This is why the "wife died and he snapped" theory makes the most sense to me. Nobody who knows about it wants to call him out on his shit. Even people who don't know are hesitant, given the possibility of violence.

Megumeru wrote:It's the same concept as how I see Lilly's 'H.A.S' as her being 'cheap/loose'. If she does something like that to Hisao, I am not surprised she'll do the same to someone else in the far future if their relationship ends.

So liking sex = cheap and loose? Oy vey.

Guest Poster wrote:In what way is Lilly cheap/loose?

I get the feeling that it's in a "patriarchal culture says so" way.

Guest Poster wrote:
In what way is Lilly cheap/loose? Doing it in a place where someone might walk in on them? Sorry, Shizune does the same. Initiating the sex? Shizune does the same both times. Doing it twice within a 24-hour time span? Hisao does the same with Emi. Also, as brythain mentions, the typical Japanese lack of a sex life that's partially responsible for the declining birth rate has a lot to do with the lack of privacy and personal space that's part of life in Japan and it would make sense for Lilly and Hisao to do it more than once during a time where they're far away from civilization and actually do have more privacy than usual. What people do when they do have privacy covers the entire range. At least Lilly picks a spot and time where only Hanako could walk in on them. Shizune's picks spots and places where her younger brother, her katana-wielding father or even a random student, teacher or cleaning lady could walk in on them.

Really, the main difference between Lilly and Shizune seems to be the fact that Lilly acknowledges that the sex happened afterwards and the fact that Shizune doesn't may have more to do with her compartmentalized thinking.

Also, cheap/loose would imply sleeping around, being promiscious or putting out with every boy who showed an interest in her. Lilly does neither. She got plenty of opportunity as she mentions having turned down several confessions both at Yamaku and during middle school.

Alright, here we go.

I don't know how different it is over there or how 'free' it is in the west, but I'll point out some reasons why some people here might consider Lilly 'loose'.
1. Lilly became Hisao's girlfriend and right then on the same day, H.A.S. happens. No extended period time taken, no extra effort to further develop the relationship. Just H.A.S..
2. Lilly does it regardless whether Hanako is around or not. Sure, 'mitigating the damage' by letting Hanako comes in and bust them seems ok. I'm not too familiar about western culture, but if you walk in on something like that here, get ready to receive a title that will be remembered by a lot of people--witnesses or not--involving how 'loose' you are and how you don't know 'privacy'.

Speaking of privacy, let's look at the locations they picked.
Emi picked two spots: her dormitory room and the shed (which it was known to be a popular spot for such things), initiated at different intervals but are mostly at noon-ish/early morning, which gave her less chance of getting caught (except unfortunately--or fortunately--by Rin)
Shizune picked two spots: her house's guest room and the student council office, initiated at night. Funny thing is, it is a lot more risky for her at the guest room than the student council office. No one barged in or caught them (it is implied, however, that Misha noticed it.)
Lilly picked 3 spots: Lilly's summer house and its corresponding bathroom--both of which are within the vicinity of Hanako, initiated at night and another at morning. How large the house is is up to interpretation. Then it's in her dormitory, initiated at night. Not to mention, even Akira knows it--rereading it again I have to say he reaction is pretty...casual.

I'm not saying Emi and Shizune are innocent in this regard for initiating it. But here's the difference between all three of them and the similarity between Shizune and Emi (despite Hisao not being Emi's first). Both Shizune and Emi had certain period of developments that grew between both Hisao and his partner, expanding more than a day as official couples. Lilly and Hisao went right on that night they became a couple and then the next day right on the tub. No further attempt to expand it any further, just straight to the sex. I'm starting to think that's what is considered 'normal' over there, no offense. Add the idea that she knew she'll be leaving for Scotland or potentially (if we include the bad ending, she leaves for Scotland). Knowing all that, it looks more as if Lilly is just after the sex all in contribution to her 'healthy adolescent sex drive'.

You'd be surprised of the percentage of couples here who actually did the deed. Most who actually did sometimes ended up not getting married or refused to. Some due to shame, others because they care of others who would have to face the idea that someone else 'got in' before him/her; bear in mind you can't give anything to your SO on marriage bed as the 'v' is held significantly higher here than the west, from what I can understand. Most who did gave them up often regretted it much later in life--good luck finding one who'd take it as it is, considering how you'll go through 'checkups' by the related family.

Why do we have so many wacky, crazy ero-stuff here? Because we repress them. It is not something most common people would do, we created them so we can 'live' them in our imagination--and if you based most of our culture from that you're dead wrong (and at some point I feel slightly offended).

Finally, I don't think Lilly's upbringing was any less Japanese than that of the other girls. Maybe even more so, seeing that she's the most clear-cut Yamato Nadeshiko in the cast. Shizune acts more like a westerner than Lilly. In fact, Lilly's traditionally Japanese behavior is what ends up contributing to the central conflict in her route.

Ironically, Lilly--despite her personality which is fitting--is the least fitting to be put into the 'yamato nadeshiko' list. A 'yamato Nadeshiko' is the embodiment of a perfect Japanese woman, that of a pure-blood (not mixed) who has long silky hair, and a gentle personality. Lilly fits the gentle personality, however it entirely misses the entire 'physical' concept of it.

Having a Yamato Nadeshiko personality=/=Japanese upbringing. Most prominently, we don't drink tea like the British; we have our own tea ceremony for that, which is entirely different and procedural. The 'casual' tea mostly came from western influence popularized during the Meiji era--that includes the silver wares, cups, and teapots. There's more I can point on considering her view and her family's take on sex (which was taken very casually). Also considering her take, I dare say she is more 'western' in influence than Japanese--which makes sense to me why it's easy for her to appeal to more-familiar audiences.

If you want to see a 'modern ideal' of a Japanese woman today, Shizune would be in that category. A self-sufficient, active, hard working woman who isn't afraid to take charge when she has to (or most of the time in this case).


funny hting is, you're not wrong of the 'dying population'. Most people find it troublesome to raise children and expensive nowadays they just don't want to when they can work and spend their time with their SO with ease.

Both Shizune and Emi had certain period of developments that grew between both Hisao and his partner, expanding more than a day as official couples.

You're getting hung up on the "official" part.

At no point in her route does Shizune even act like Hisao is her boyfriend regardless of how much time they've spent together and Emi had sex with nothing more than the intentions of having sex. She didn't even WANT a real relationship.

I'd say the actions and attitudes are far more important than how long they're "officially" together.

Add the idea that she knew she'll be leaving for Scotland or potentially (if we include the bad ending, she leaves for Scotland).

But does she know at that point? We know she received a summons, but a big part of his story is that she hasn't actually accepted it yet. If you're willing to shame her for not "officially" being part of a relationship for long, I don't see how you can turn around and say that she knew she was leaving.

... and then we have Shizune who's ending highly implies that they AREN'T staying together anyway, so how does that fit in?

Knowing all that, it looks more as if Lilly is just after the sex all in contribution to her 'healthy adolescent sex drive'.

No. Not it doesn't. To anyone that paid the slightest bit of attention in the game. Lilly is one of the more popular girls at school and has had many confessions. If she just wanted sex and nothing else, she would have gotten it long before she met Hisao.

Now maybe you think she did jump right into the physical aspects of the relationship much quicker than the other girls. That's a fair complaint. Howevere the physical side of things actually means a lot more to her, since she can't actually see Hisao. The sense of touch is where she gets much of her input. She's cut off fro the whole "longing looks" part of a relationship.

She's also far more honest about her actually feelings than any of the other girls.

Guest Poster wrote:Yaknow, you really oughta start reading the other routes sometimes. If for no other reason to be able to come up with your own impression rather than having to rely on quotes so much.

Oh, don't go all Potato on me... I'm working up the nerve. Slowly. But gradually.

I don't know how different it is over there or how 'free' it is in the west, but I'll point out some reasons why some people here might consider Lilly 'loose'.
1. Lilly became Hisao's girlfriend and right then on the same day, H.A.S. happens. No extended period time taken, no extra effort to further develop the relationship. Just H.A.S..
2. Lilly does it regardless whether Hanako is around or not. Sure, 'mitigating the damage' by letting Hanako comes in and bust them seems ok. I'm not too familiar about western culture, but if you walk in on something like that here, get ready to receive a title that will be remembered by a lot of people--witnesses or not--involving how 'loose' you are and how you don't know 'privacy'.

I assume "here" is Japan?

What I've always heard was that Japanese have traditionally not linked sex with guilt, shame and taboos as is the case in the west. The Abrahamic religions of the west make a much bigger deal about sex being exclusively practiced in the proper relationship context (and virginity in general) than Shinto Japan.

As for the relationship...Lilly and Hisao were already close friends and shared a mutual romantic attraction. They already knew each other pretty well. The consumation of their relationship was quick, but not fast enough to call Lilly loose. Loose women generally jump in the sack with guys before their relationship reaches the "close friendship" stage. (I assume it's safe to say that Rin and Hanako are also loose girls in your book?)

Shizune picked two spots: her house's guest room and the student council office, initiated at night. Funny thing is, it is a lot more risky for her at the guest room than the student council office. No one barged in or caught them (it is implied, however, that Misha noticed it.)
Lilly picked 3 spots: Lilly's summer house and its corresponding bathroom--both of which are within the vicinity of Hanako, initiated at night and another at morning. How large the house is is up to interpretation. Then it's in her dormitory, initiated at night. Not to mention, even Akira knows it--rereading it again I have to say he reaction is pretty...casual.

I know by whom I'd rather get caught...by my best friend who already knew I and the person I'm with had the hots for each other or my kid brother, unpredictable katana-wielding dad or a random teacher. (Shizune's second scene may have been at night, but at least one teacher was still in the building giving supplementary lessons, there could have been more teachers giving lagging students extra lessons) And why wouldn't Akira be casual about it? She's fairly laid back and she and her sister have few secrets between each other.

I'm not saying Emi and Shizune are innocent in this regard for initiating it. But here's the difference between all three of them and the similarity between Shizune and Emi (despite Hisao not being Emi's first). Both Shizune and Emi had certain period of developments that grew between both Hisao and his partner, expanding more than a day as official couples. Lilly and Hisao went right on that night they became a couple and then the next day right on the tub. No further attempt to expand it any further, just straight to the sex. I'm starting to think that's what is considered 'normal' over there, no offense.

"Normal" is forming a close emotional bond with the person you're with before bedding him and you could argue that Lilly and Hisao were already more emotionally intimate than Hisao and Emi were. (since Emi wouldn't let Hisao close) Or Hisao and Shizune for that matter.

There's more I can point on considering her view and her family's take on sex (which was taken very casually). Also considering her take, I dare say she is more 'western' in influence than Japanese--which makes sense to me why it's easy for her to appeal to more-familiar audiences.

Not her family's take on sex. Her sister's. Doesn't say much about her upbringing, really. It says more about her sister being fairly laid back and carefree. I would have been shocked if Akira had given Lilly a lecture about preserving her virginity for marriage. But if you have more to share, do share.

If you want to see a 'modern ideal' of a Japanese woman today, Shizune would be in that category. A self-sufficient, active, hard working woman who isn't afraid to take charge when she has to (or most of the time in this case).

And who is also overly confrontational and a spectacularly bad team player who's often more concerned about winning a confrontation than building a consensus and maintaining harmony in the group she's part of. Never expected those to be ideal traits in a society like Japan. Times sure change.

Oddball wrote: You're getting hung up on the "official" part.

At no point in her route does Shizune even act like Hisao is her boyfriend regardless of how much time they've spent together and Emi had sex with nothing more than the intentions of having sex. She didn't even WANT a real relationship.

I'd say the actions and attitudes are far more important than how long they're "officially" together.

So from what I am getting, having a relationship = sex.

I'm sorry, but to me that is wrong in almost so many levels to me as it barely covers the very concept of 'relationship', scraping it more on layers of 'lust' and physical attraction rather than going into the deeper emotional core where you go to lengths to understand what someone is inside. Does Shizune and Hisao does that? Yes they do. Do they finish each other's sentences? Trade banters? Spend time together? Don't try to deny it--unless of course you can't find them since you're waiting for the VN to spoon-feed you with feels. These are some of the basic foundations yet the most powerful bond you can forge with someone just through simple, basic communication. By the time Shizune invited Hisao to visit her home, I already understood how deep their relationship has been--and it doesn't even need the sex.

Do they even need sex to actually make it work?

Frankly, it isn't even necessary.

Oddball wrote:But does she know at that point? We know she received a summons, but a big part of his story is that she hasn't actually accepted it yet. If you're willing to shame her for not "officially" being part of a relationship for long, I don't see how you can turn around and say that she knew she was leaving.

... and then we have Shizune who's ending highly implies that they AREN'T staying together anyway, so how does that fit in?

How many chapters does Lilly spend caught pondering by Hisao about something she doesn't want to say until the confession? She was summoned by her parents off in Scotland, and like it or not she will have to comply--which when she doesn't, Akira gets the stick instead to cover her ass. That was mentioned in her epiloge.

Also, Shizune's ending implies they aren't staying together? Huh, that's funny. Maybe you misread something or should I quote something for you?
As far as my memory recalls, the only--ONLY--person who's getting 'off' was Misha who has plans on studying abroad and become a sign language teacher. She wishes to Hisao 'to watch over Shizune', before we move to the photo shoot. Why the 'three musketeer' scene? If you didn't catch it, Shizune mentions how it a photo captures a moment and rather than having it to be a 'commemorative', she wishes it to be 'celebratory' since they will meet again soon--very soon for Hisao and before she mentions 'both of you' (implying Misha is in the picture now). It can be speculated further that Shizune and Hisao may actually enrolled in the same university. That relationship is much longer than a 2-3 month span--that's a year's worth up until graduation (spring entrance ceremony starts in April, with graduation in March.)

Oddball wrote:

Both Shizune and Emi had certain period of developments that grew between both Hisao and his partner, expanding more than a day as official couples.

You're getting hung up on the "official" part.

At no point in her route does Shizune even act like Hisao is her boyfriend regardless of how much time they've spent together and Emi had sex with nothing more than the intentions of having sex. She didn't even WANT a real relationship.

I'd say the actions and attitudes are far more important than how long they're "officially" together.

Add the idea that she knew she'll be leaving for Scotland or potentially (if we include the bad ending, she leaves for Scotland).

But does she know at that point? We know she received a summons, but a big part of his story is that she hasn't actually accepted it yet. If you're willing to shame her for not "officially" being part of a relationship for long, I don't see how you can turn around and say that she knew she was leaving.

... and then we have Shizune who's ending highly implies that they AREN'T staying together anyway, so how does that fit in?

Knowing all that, it looks more as if Lilly is just after the sex all in contribution to her 'healthy adolescent sex drive'.

No. Not it doesn't. To anyone that paid the slightest bit of attention in the game. Lilly is one of the more popular girls at school and has had many confessions. If she just wanted sex and nothing else, she would have gotten it long before she met Hisao.

Now maybe you think she did jump right into the physical aspects of the relationship much quicker than the other girls. That's a fair complaint. Howevere the physical side of things actually means a lot more to her, since she can't actually see Hisao. The sense of touch is where she gets much of her input. She's cut off fro the whole "longing looks" part of a relationship.

She's also far more honest about her actually feelings than any of the other girls.

That's actually a legit claim and I can sympathize with that--slightly. It is still, in my opinion, fast and 'disgusting(?)' to a degree--add the fact they do it again in the morning dismisses any form of sympathy I might actually have for her.

Guest Poster wrote: I assume "here" is Japan?

What I've always heard was that Japanese have traditionally not linked sex with guilt, shame and taboos as is the case in the west. The Abrahamic religions of the west make a much bigger deal about sex being exclusively practiced in the proper relationship context (and virginity in general) than Shinto Japan.

As for the relationship...Lilly and Hisao were already close friends and shared a mutual romantic attraction. They already knew each other pretty well. The consumation of their relationship was quick, but not fast enough to call Lilly loose. Loose women generally jump in the sack with guys before their relationship reaches the "close friendship" stage. (I assume it's safe to say that Rin and Hanako are also loose girls in your book?)

I'm talking about the culture and society. Not religion. 'From what you heard'; from what I catch, I can save to say you're unfamiliar of what life is like across the ocean with nothing more based on internet articles, magazines, and whatnot.

Before then, let's look at Rin and Hanako's to which in both cases the act is initiated mostly by Hisao. As much as I feel a hint of disgust on Hisao for those moments, the blames are not solely on his shoulders. Then again Hisao has the power to restrain herself in the first place on Hanako's case and Rin's case (Hanako's more on meekness, Rin's more on confusion and uncertainty). Would I call them loose? If I didn't know how it all happened they'd fall right in. But knowing how it happened in the process I won't lay the blame on them but instead on the instigator.

Now, concerning Lilly and Hisao.

Hisao and Lilly's relationship suddenly 'jump the shark' the moment they became a couple without any further developments. Further, this is initiated by Lilly--three times--one of which is just a few hours right after the confession. That sets off a lot of alarms.

Guest Poster wrote:I know by whom I'd rather get caught...by my best friend who already knew I and the person I'm with had the hots for each other or my kid brother, unpredictable katana-wielding dad or a random teacher. (Shizune's second scene may have been at night, but at least one teacher was still in the building giving supplementary lessons, there could have been more teachers giving lagging students extra lessons) And why wouldn't Akira be casual about it? She's fairly laid back and she and her sister have few secrets between each other.

You know what I'd rather have? NOT getting caught.

Here's something: Shizune still has the decency to pick a time where she knew there will be least chance of exposure. The time in the guest house can be speculated late night, right before Hisao decides to close the day. Secondly, the student council office at night. School ends at three, with extra curricular activity ending at 5 and do note: this is high school, NOT university where late night classes exists. They can stay all night if they want in that room and may not be found out until early morning when the students starts rolling.

Lilly could pick a better place--or time. Twice she done it in the vicinity--one on the waking hour--of her 'best friend'. This actually led me to think that she has no shame nor decency to actually hide and instead prefers 'hey look! I'm in a relationship with Hisao, Hanako! Hear us make sounds you don't want to hear and feel awkward about!'.

Guest Poster wrote:"Normal" is forming a close emotional bond with the person you're with before bedding him and you could argue that Lilly and Hisao were already more emotionally intimate than Hisao and Emi were. (since Emi wouldn't let Hisao close) Or Hisao and Shizune for that matter.

As far as I remember Lilly's route, Hisao doesn't even try to understand Lilly any further and felt absolutely satisfied until he was pressured at the near-end of ACTIV. I'm seeing less emotional bond between them and more physical attraction in a similar sense to how Emi's story flows--similarly, not until act IV where the real 'meat' of mental and emotional bonds were formed. What about Shizune? Their relationship begin in ACTI as acquaintances, ACTII as friends driving more towards interest and ACTIII is where all the real 'meat' of mental and emotional bonds shows with how they interact between one another.

If you're not familiar, taking your partner to meet your family loudly states 'I am going serious with this guy for real'. It went further to the point Hisao is even capable of understanding Shizune to cite what she really is as a person, more than what Misha even understands (concerning how she can make Shizune 'happy').

Not her family's take on sex. Her sister's. Doesn't say much about her upbringing, really. It says more about her sister being fairly laid back and carefree. I would have been shocked if Akira had given Lilly a lecture about preserving her virginity for marriage. But if you have more to share, do share.

Both of Lilly's parents

Guest Poster wrote:

I don't know how different it is over there or how 'free' it is in the west, but I'll point out some reasons why some people here might consider Lilly 'loose'.
1. Lilly became Hisao's girlfriend and right then on the same day, H.A.S. happens. No extended period time taken, no extra effort to further develop the relationship. Just H.A.S..
2. Lilly does it regardless whether Hanako is around or not. Sure, 'mitigating the damage' by letting Hanako comes in and bust them seems ok. I'm not too familiar about western culture, but if you walk in on something like that here, get ready to receive a title that will be remembered by a lot of people--witnesses or not--involving how 'loose' you are and how you don't know 'privacy'.

I assume "here" is Japan?

What I've always heard was that Japanese have traditionally not linked sex with guilt, shame and taboos as is the case in the west. The Abrahamic religions of the west make a much bigger deal about sex being exclusively practiced in the proper relationship context (and virginity in general) than Shinto Japan.

As for the relationship...Lilly and Hisao were already close friends and shared a mutual romantic attraction. They already knew each other pretty well. The consumation of their relationship was quick, but not fast enough to call Lilly loose. Loose women generally jump in the sack with guys before their relationship reaches the "close friendship" stage. (I assume it's safe to say that Rin and Hanako are also loose girls in your book?)

Shizune picked two spots: her house's guest room and the student council office, initiated at night. Funny thing is, it is a lot more risky for her at the guest room than the student council office. No one barged in or caught them (it is implied, however, that Misha noticed it.)
Lilly picked 3 spots: Lilly's summer house and its corresponding bathroom--both of which are within the vicinity of Hanako, initiated at night and another at morning. How large the house is is up to interpretation. Then it's in her dormitory, initiated at night. Not to mention, even Akira knows it--rereading it again I have to say he reaction is pretty...casual.

I know by whom I'd rather get caught...by my best friend who already knew I and the person I'm with had the hots for each other or my kid brother, unpredictable katana-wielding dad or a random teacher. (Shizune's second scene may have been at night, but at least one teacher was still in the building giving supplementary lessons, there could have been more teachers giving lagging students extra lessons) And why wouldn't Akira be casual about it? She's fairly laid back and she and her sister have few secrets between each other.

I'm not saying Emi and Shizune are innocent in this regard for initiating it. But here's the difference between all three of them and the similarity between Shizune and Emi (despite Hisao not being Emi's first). Both Shizune and Emi had certain period of developments that grew between both Hisao and his partner, expanding more than a day as official couples. Lilly and Hisao went right on that night they became a couple and then the next day right on the tub. No further attempt to expand it any further, just straight to the sex. I'm starting to think that's what is considered 'normal' over there, no offense.

"Normal" is forming a close emotional bond with the person you're with before bedding him and you could argue that Lilly and Hisao were already more emotionally intimate than Hisao and Emi were. (since Emi wouldn't let Hisao close) Or Hisao and Shizune for that matter.

Not her family's take on sex. Her sister's. Doesn't say much about her upbringing, really. It says more about her sister being fairly laid back and carefree. I would have been shocked if Akira had given Lilly a lecture about preserving her virginity for marriage. But if you have more to share, do share.

I stand corrected.

And who is also overly confrontational and a spectacularly bad team player who's often more concerned about winning a confrontation than building a consensus and maintaining harmony in the group she's part of. Never expected those to be ideal traits in a society like Japan. Times sure change.

and I assume your 'societal idea' of Japan is as outdated as the rice cultivation methods of the Yayoi period. Independent, selfless, and forward-thinking; all for the benefit and happiness of others. What good is a consensus if it leads to a stalemate, stalls progress, or delays the inevitable? Let that sink in for a moment you culturally insensitive prick.

Play nice... the topic started out innocently, but I see it in major danger of being cooked right now, along with some select people in it.

Let that sink in for a moment you culturally insensitive prick.

I see no reason why anyone should continue to debate with you if you're not going to be civil.

*shrug* Whatever. Looks like a good moment to drop the discussion before the mods nuke the thread.

Megumeru wrote:1. Lilly became Hisao's girlfriend and right then on the same day, H.A.S. happens. No extended period time taken, no extra effort to further develop the relationship. Just H.A.S..

2. Lilly does it regardless whether Hanako is around or not. Sure, 'mitigating the damage' by letting Hanako come in and bust them seems ok. I'm not too familiar about western culture, but if you walk in on something like that here, get ready to receive a title that will be remembered by a lot of people--witnesses or not--involving how 'loose' you are and how you don't know 'privacy'.

I'm starting to think that's what is considered 'normal' over there, no offense.

1. ...Yeah, that's not quite what 'loose' means. So she banged the guy she's in a relationship with. So what? That's kind of a part of romantic relationships.

2. Again...Not what loose or cheap means.


Yes, sex with someone whom shares an intimate emotional bond with you is normal here, particularly when in a relationship. Crazy, ain't it?

Say, what was this thread about again?

Well, that was fun to read.

Potato wrote:Say, what was this thread about again?

You should know by now that all discussions of thread plot quality will invariably polarize into a Lilly vs. Shizune war.

Honestly, the only people who fight harder than they do in the VN are their fans. :p

You know, it's both amusing and fascinating that Shizune discussions tend to gravitate toward a major "srs bsns" discussion, with passionate debate on both the "pro" and "con" sides of the equation. even more so when the major players just so happen to be Lilly/Hanako on one side, and Shizune/Misha on the other. Not to imply that I'm superior, or even that I've managed to stay above the fray, or anything of the sort. Just one of those funny little coincidences.

Now, let's see...

4LS and Japanese Culture: The key point there is that 4LS didn't consider getting the culture right as a priority. 4LS is/was far from any sort of monoculture; I interpret that answer as "With the exception of turkey sandwiches and raspberry ice cream, the editing process didn't focus heavily on Japanese cultural notes. And there's also the fact that the writers can't help knowing what they know - considering Crud dropped out of development due in some connection to the fact that his wife is Japanese, it would be fair to say that Crud had a fair knowledge of Japanese culture, whether or not he chose to make use of it.

Besides, my point was that there's enough evidence for it to be plausible that A22 did some cultural research. And if, in the end, it's all just a happy coincidence? I seem to remember someone saying that luck can be a skill.

Jigoro: We've beaten this bear to death time and time again. My opinion hasn't changed. The whole "ronin" theory is both compelling, and, well, not. I feel that Megumeru has a compelling point with the lack of a topknot - symbolic visuals like that are a pretty big thing. Disagree on his(?) argument that Jigoro works for some sort of consulting firm - look at the business card. I can't read a lick of Japanese, but I've seen more than my fair share of business cards. It looks like that likely says something pretty close to what Hisao states (Jigoro Hakamichi - consultant). Also, no address, business name, office phone number, etc. Business hours, two phone numbers that are extremely similar (probably home office and fax), and an email address of "jigoro@hakamichi.co.jp". So I'm gonna bank on self-employed, countercultural as that may be.

Lilly a slut: Now, this is a delicate matter (and one I approach with such sensitivity). My personal interpretation is that she, like the rest of the girls, simply exhibits behavioral traits of Adolescus Cornibus. In such a situation, thoughts generally are somewhat less inclined toward "I don't want to get caught" and more toward "I'mma tap dat ass!"

On the subject of timing, it was always my impression that the chairsex was going on while Jiggs was still yelling at Misha (and Hideaki). And that Hisao was walking in fields of gold while Hanako was napping, pretty much immediately after the two of them got back in the house. In the classroom, Shizune was playing the odds - she probably has a very good idea how likely it is for someone to drop by the classrooms in the evening, considering she's almost constantly doing some sort of Student Council work late into the evening. Nevermind the fact that Emi and Rin both do the deed right in front of open windows...

Also, as another point, there's a difference between being "cheap/loose" and being in it entirely for the sex. In the former, sex is considered a primary and early means of showing affection; in the latter, affection never really enters the equation.

Emi a slut: I yet again see the claim that canon states that Emi had sex before Hisao. I could care less about whether or not Emi's "pure," but this persistent claim baffles me. Did I just miss something? Could someone please point out the scene/line that states this?

Also, why does everyone take Emi's "I don't care about you; I was only in it for the sex" at face value? Like the above, I'm beginning to think I got a different Emi route than the rest of you, because I remember the good end being specifically directed toward Hisao calling Emi out on that bullshit. She was using sex to keep Hisao distracted, so she could pretend that they're in a close relationship without really having to make herself vulnerable.

Evidently, she couldn't manage to convince herself that she didn't care about Hisao, but she managed to convince about half of the readers...

Read ALL the Routes! (Including the bad ends): I'm ProfAllister, and I approve this message.

Acting Like a Couple: I kind of love this argument, because it's so obvious, and yet also so obviously wrong. It should hold up to scrutiny, but it doesn't. Let's start with the beginning of the relationship - Tanabata, they're alone together, Shizune agrees to be his girlfriend. Living in the moment, all kinds of close and romantic (also, Hisao-initiated).

Summer break comes up, Shizune mentions her plans for the break, Hisao asks to come along (highly unusual and rather forward, to say the least). Shizune doesn't put up any real resistance, and makes the arrangements on extremely short notice. Jigoro complains about how the short notice is annoying and takes significant effort to work around, but it's Shizune who really suffers from the change in plans. Think about it for a second - Shizune and Misha had likely been planning this since before they met Hisao, and then he joins in on the fun a matter of days before it's time to go. The whole break, Shizune is torn between honoring the plans she made with Misha and attending to her boyfriend (you'll note that, later int he arc, she admits that she has trouble quickly and rapidly changing gears).

When Jigoro turns on Misha, Shizune sees an opportunity to focus directly on Hisao (it's worth noting that the Summer Break sequence includes several scenes where Misha is very clearly a third wheel). It sounds cold, but Shizune isn't throwing her best friend to the wolfman in order to have sex with her boyfriend. ...Okay, that's exactly what she does, but it's part of an effort to balance on the razor's edge. Through a wacky set of circumstances (which most definitely was not planned - no siree!), they end up in a compromising position. Hisao, seeing his opportunity... does nothing. Rightly interpreting Hisao's hesitation as concern for hurting her, or taking advantage of her, Shizune decides to hold his hand - quite literally. She wants to let him know that she's his, and wouldn't object to the occasional ravishing, if he were so inclined.

Hisao doesn't follow up. When they get back to school, what does he do? He avoids Shizune and Misha. No Student Council means no reason to associate with Shizune or Misha.

Noticing a pattern? Because it keeps going that way.

Also,

I'll likely die younger than the average person. My life could unexpectedly burn out at any time. I don't have any time to waste, then. I want to live as much as possible. I also want to see other people smile from what I've made and done.
Living vicariously through the happiness of others doesn't seem so bad. Feeling joy through another person's happiness doesn't seem like such a bad thing. It's the easiest way I can think of to draw out my own life, and give it distinction.
Maybe this is the meaning that Shizune has found for herself, although it's just my theory. People find themselves alone often in their lives, and without direction.
However, people can take refuge in moments of happiness. They can dot a person's life like stops on a train map. Or waypoints of memory on a long trail.
These individual moments, on reflection, can give a person's life fulfillment. Every friend, and festival, and joyful meeting, and joyful parting.
I want to be able to ask Shizune one day if I'm right. I want to spend the time I have with her. Finally, I want to make Shizune smile for herself.

Now, I may be less adept at the whole "reading comprehension" thing than some other forumgoers here, but I'm a little confused as to how this implies that Shizune and Hisao aren't staying together.

^ This guy. He's pretty much nailed it.