Katawa Shoujo Forums

If she really kept this from him all the time and then used this phrasing deliberately to test Hisao...
I don't know, but I think that would be even worse, because it would mean that she feels not a shred of remorse.

BestTerribleApe wrote:[An actually insightful analysis]

For a Terrible Ape, you're pretty good. Maybe the best one I've seen.

Mirage_GSM wrote:What I said was that she failed to inform Hisao (and Hanako) of the possibility that she might soon be leaving the country, and regardless of whether or not she had already decided that is most definitely a major breach of confidence (or a "dick move" as I called it earlier).

You gotta admit, it's far more serious if she had already decided right away. Without that, it's just being too wishy-washy, which is more of a sin of omission.

She is asked a straight question, and instead of giving a direct answer or simply saying that she hasn't decided yet - which would have been a valid option - she lists the reasons why she should go. Why should she reply that way if she wanted to stay or was still in any way uncertain?

Because that allows her to appear to answer without actually answering. What she's really trying to do here is get Hisao to reveal what he wants without explicitly prompting it (which could unduly affect the outcome — "Does he really want me, or is he just saying what he thinks I want to hear?" and the like). His resigned acceptance of the thought of her going tells her all she needs to know.

she has to know that answering this way will lead Hisao to the conclusion that she has decided to go.

She thinks hearing this tentative leaning toward leaving will provoke any feeling he might have to the contrary. But no dice, cuz Hisao.

So the only conclusion to reach (for me - you'll probably continue to believe in your conclusion) is that she actually did decide before that point to go.

So how do you explain both Akira's statement that she had not been told yet, and Lilly's statement that she hadn't told Hisao yet because she wanted to decide first?

What she's really trying to do here is get Hisao to reveal what he wants without explicitly prompting it

Like I said in my previous post: If she was actually callous enough to put Hisao to the test in a situation like this, this would make her actions even worse. Even I don't think she is that bad.

So how do you explain both Akira's statement that she had not been told yet, and Lilly's statement that she hadn't told Hisao yet because she wanted to decide first?

So maybe she hasn't told Akira? What would it change if she didn't?
The second sounds like a weak excuse to me. Even if it was true, it wouldn't justify her behaviour.

You know, I think we've derailed this thread long enough. If you want to continue this discussion, you can PM me, but I think I've said all I have to say about this matter.

Mirage_GSM wrote:

What she's really trying to do here is get Hisao to reveal what he wants without explicitly prompting it

Like I said in my previous post: If she was actually callous enough to put Hisao to the test in a situation like this, this would make her actions even worse. Even I don't think she is that bad.

Because giving someone the opportunity to voice their opinions on a matter is totally callous...

One of Hisao's definitive faults is that he takes people at face value. He's clearly been used to relatively shallow relationships, both with his friends and his parents, and has no idea that genuine friendship can leave many things unsaid.

Hisao is a natural follower not a leader. You put him with a strong personality (Lilly, SHizune) then he's going to do what they say without any objections.

You have him being the one trying to take the lead (Hanako, Rin) he falls flat on his face and nearly ruins everything.

Mirage_GSM wrote:

What she's really trying to do here is get Hisao to reveal what he wants without explicitly prompting it

Like I said in my previous post: If she was actually callous enough to put Hisao to the test in a situation like this, this would make her actions even worse. Even I don't think she is that bad.

That's only because you're still assuming she'd already long since decided to go. Having decided and then testing him like that would indeed be cruel. But not having decided and then testing him isn't cruel, it's just oblique.

So maybe she hasn't told Akira? What would it change if she didn't?

Because she would have no reason not to tell Akira her decision. In fact plain old practical matters would demand she tell her as soon as possible — plane tickets, shipping arrangements, disposition of property, etc.

The second sounds like a weak excuse to me.

Regardless of how well it serves as an excuse, it betrays the truth of her actions. She's annoyed that Akira told. Why? She didn't intend to tell yet. Why? She hadn't decided yet. If she had already decided, why be annoyed? In that case it would mean Akira did the difficult task for her, which would result in relief, I'd think.

Even if it was true, it wouldn't justify her behaviour.

Not telling about the summons, you mean? I'm not saying that was justified. Just that the wrong she did by doing so was not nearly the crime you're feeling like it was.

You know, I think we've derailed this thread long enough. If you want to continue this discussion, you can PM me, but I think I've said all I have to say about this matter.

That's up to you, but I don't think it's derailing at all. This is a discussion about feeling bad about endings, and this matter feeds right into how one feels about Lilly's endings.

Don't feel like we're ganging up on you or attacking you or anything, by the way. I'm just having a discussion and I find it interesting.

monkeywitha6pack wrote:It would be interesting to see what would have happened of Akira never said anything. I would like to think Lilly would end up snapping and ether Hisao says something to comfort and help her then she stays with Hisao or he screws up and says something that makes her decide to leave

"Hisao, could you help me get my luggage down to Akira's car? There's something I need to talk to you about."

Thinking about Lilly's ending from Hisao's point of view ...

Given that Lilly feels a familial obligation to go to Scotland and try to make things right with her family, I can see an argument being made that the *right* thing for Hisao to do is to back off and let Lilly go to Scotland with a minimal amount of fuss, even if it means burying his own pain and emotions, in order to give Lilly an easy exit.

And I think I just remembered another big clue to Lilly's behavior.

If I Remember Correctly, at the end of the meeting at the Shanghai, Hisao asks Lilly when she is leaving and she replies that she will be leaving in a week, at the end of exams. In other words, there was actually no indecision on Lilly's part: she had made up her mind by then. As we find out later, it is a shallow decision and can be easily reversed with a little near-death experience.

I don't think she kept information from Hisao maliciously; rather she had a choice of who to hurt and simply did not want to cross that bridge before she had to. Telling Hisao early would have been the right thing to do, but we don't always do the right thing, do we?

I also suspect that simply because of the logistics of international travel, Akira had to know of Lilly's decision by the time of her conversation with Hisao. In other words, Akira simply lied about Lilly not having made up her mind. AIkira may have felt that Hisao should have a chance to convince Lilly not to go.

Liminaut wrote:Hisao asks Lilly when she is leaving and she replies that she will be leaving in a week, at the end of exams. In other words, there was actually no indecision on Lilly's part: she had made up her mind by then.

Not sure how you're getting from A to B there. How does that follow?

I also suspect that simply because of the logistics of international travel, Akira had to know of Lilly's decision by the time of her conversation with Hisao. In other words, Akira simply lied about Lilly not having made up her mind.

Not really. Knowing earlier and having weeks to do things at a leisurely pace is better, but not a deal-breaker if you can't swing it. You can buy an international plane ticket and walk right onto the plane that minute, provided you're willing to pony up enough big bucks (which we know the Satous have). Of course setting your affairs in order before you leave will take a little longer, but for someone living out of a dorm room, that's not going to be a big enough task to be not doable in under, say, a day or two, if you try.

In other words, Akira simply lied about Lilly not having made up her mind.

But why would she do that? It really wouldn't be any skin off Akira's nose to just say "Hisao, she's decided to go." She's already spilling the beans behind Lilly's back, why not go for broke?

AIkira may have felt that Hisao should have a chance to convince Lilly not to go.

Possibly true either way. But then she could even say something like "You better pipe up if you want her to stay.", if she were that intent on giving him his best shot at cancelling a decision to go.

Because giving someone the opportunity to voice their opinions on a matter is totally callous...

No, but doing so right after withholding important information about one's relationship from your partner for the purpose of testing their commitment totally is.

That's only because you're still assuming she'd already long since decided to go. Having decided and then testing him like that would indeed be cruel. But not having decided and then testing him isn't cruel, it's just oblique.

That's one more point where we disagree then: Regardless of whether or not she decided already, withholding the information was very much not nice. It was something she should have at least apologized for. A simply "I'm sorry" doesn't cut it in such a situation.
I do think Lilly did feel bad about what she did and did not intentionally hurt Hisao, and I do not think that she would test his loyalty in that situation.

You gotta admit, it's far more serious if she had already decided right away. Without that, it's just being too wishy-washy, which is more of a sin of omission.

More serious? I don't think I even considered that before... I'm not even sure: What's the difference for Hisao?
Either she had decided and was too afraid to tell Hisao or she had not decided yet and was too afraid to talk about it with Hisao. Both are serious breaches of confidence not much different in severity.
This would only make a difference if you wanted to argue that she had decided and was intentionally using Hisao as a boytoy for as long as possible - which would certainly be more serious - and I already said that I don't believe that's the case.

She's annoyed that Akira told. Why? She didn't intend to tell yet. Why? She hadn't decided yet. If she had already decided, why be annoyed?

Because she knows she's done something wrong, and now she has to admit it to herself.

That's up to you, but I don't think it's derailing at all. This is a discussion about feeling bad about endings, and this matter feeds right into how one feels about Lilly's endings.

Well.. very tangentially, but SC has been known to intervene in other similar cases, and since it's mainly the two of us keeping up this discussion I thought moving it to PM might appease him

Don't feel like we're ganging up on you or attacking you or anything, by the way. I'm just having a discussion and I find it interesting.

Ganging up? No, why? I didn't count the users posting with either position here, but I'm not even sure you're on the majority side. And if I felt you were attacking me, I wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

Not sure how you're getting from A to B there. How does that follow?

She already knows the travel date... It's not proof (nothing is "proof" here short of an intervention by Suriko) but it is an indicator that her plans are pretty much finalized at that point.

But why would she do that? It really wouldn't be any skin off Akira's nose to just say "Hisao, she's decided to go." She's already spilling the beans behind Lilly's back, why not go for broke?

Like I said I don't really think Akira lied, but if she did one possible reason would be that she might have hoped Hisao would persuade Lilly to stay, and she felt it would discourage him too much if he knew she already decided. It turned out that he was very much discouraged when Lilly told him/insinuated that she had already decided.

Mirage_GSM wrote:

Because giving someone the opportunity to voice their opinions on a matter is totally callous...

No, but doing so right after withholding important information about one's relationship from your partner for the purpose of testing their commitment totally is.

No moreso than his apparent lack of commitment. He could promise never to leave but then he pushes her to leave without even trying to really discuss his take on the matter. He's basically telling her she's not even worth putting up the slightest fight. Even if he thought she'd already decided, he could have said something, anything at all to suggest that he actually cared and wanted her to stay. He didn't.

Potato wrote:stuff he's written before

Now this part of the discussion is getting repetitive.

Mirage_GSM wrote:Regardless of whether or not she decided already, withholding the information was very much not nice. It was something she should have at least apologized for. A simply "I'm sorry" doesn't cut it in such a situation.

[shrug] If you say so. It's a matter of how offended one is about being wishy-washy. You're more offended than me, I guess.

I do think Lilly did feel bad about what she did and did not intentionally hurt Hisao

That confuses me. To me, most of any blame/anger/reproach/etc. toward Lilly would stem directly from her intent. If you don't think she had any bad intent, I don't see why you're so offended.

I do not think that she would test his loyalty in that situation.

Wait, no. Not loyalty. I'm positing that she's trying to test whether he wants her or not, not whether he's loyal to her.

What's the difference for Hisao?
Either she had decided and was too afraid to tell Hisao or she had not decided yet and was too afraid to talk about it with Hisao. Both are serious breaches of confidence not much different in severity.

I actually wasn't thinking "afraid". I was thinking "deferential". Like she can't bring herself to assert anything against the (presumably conflicting) wishes of him nor her parents, and so is kinda stuck in her own hesitance. I can sympathize enough with such a situation that I can't just roundly condemn her for it.

This would only make a difference if you wanted to argue that she had decided and was intentionally using Hisao as a boytoy for as long as possible - which would certainly be more serious - and I already said that I don't believe that's the case.

So what is it you're thinking she's afraid of in refraining from telling him she's simply decided to go?

She's annoyed that Akira told. Why? She didn't intend to tell yet. Why? She hadn't decided yet. If she had already decided, why be annoyed?

Because she knows she's done something wrong, and now she has to admit it to herself.

But if that were the case, it would apply either way. So I'd give her the benefit of the doubt and not count that against her.

SC has been known to intervene in other similar cases, and since it's mainly the two of us keeping up this discussion I thought moving it to PM might appease him

Meh. If he yells at me, I'll stop. Till then, I think we're fine.

Ganging up? No, why? I didn't count the users posting with either position here, but I'm not even sure you're on the majority side. And if I felt you were attacking me, I wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

Ok! Just making sure!

She already knows the travel date... It's not proof (nothing is "proof" here short of an intervention by Suriko) but it is an indicator that her plans are pretty much finalized at that point.

She knows the travel date, but not necessarily whether she's taking part. Akira's going either way, remember.

Like I said I don't really think Akira lied, but if she did one possible reason would be that she might have hoped Hisao would persuade Lilly to stay, and she felt it would discourage him too much if he knew she already decided.

Akira doesn't strike me as the type to pussyfoot around these things, though — quite the opposite of her sister. In my mind, regardless of anything, she'd just put it all out there (what's happening, plus her own feelings on the matter) and let the chips fall where they may. "Buddy, my sister's planning on going to a different hemisphere of the planet forever. If you want something different, grow a pair and say so. Seeyas." Or, what we actually get, which is: "I dunno either, but you deserve to know that something's up. Do with that what you will."

That confuses me. To me, most of any blame/anger/reproach/etc. toward Lilly would stem directly from her intent. If you don't think she had any bad intent, I don't see why you're so offended.

Intent is important to a certain degree, but whatever her intent, the result was that she hurt Hisao (and Hanako), because she was too indecisive/cowardly/weak/insert adjective of choice to be open about her problem.

Wait, no. Not loyalty. I'm positing that she's trying to test whether he wants her or not, not whether he's loyal to her.

Whatever. My point was that I don't think that is her intention, so I'm not going to argue the details of what she doesn't want to do^^°

Mirage wrote:Either she had decided and was too afraid to tell Hisao or she had not decided yet and was too afraid to talk about it with Hisao.

I actually wasn't thinking "afraid". I was thinking "deferential". Like she can't bring herself to assert anything against the (presumably conflicting) wishes of him nor her parents, and so is kinda stuck in her own hesitance.

"Deferential" is her stance towards her parents. "Afraid" is her stance towards Hisao. I think that should be clear in the line you quoted.

So what is it you're thinking she's afraid of in refraining from telling him she's simply decided to go?

His reaction of course. Hisao had every reason to be very angry with her.
Regardless of whether or not she had already decided to go at that point, she does have feelings for Hisao, and she is afraid he might take it badly and reject her.

Because she knows she's done something wrong, and now she has to admit it to herself.

But if that were the case, it would apply either way.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at...