Katawa Shoujo Forums

Guest Poster wrote:Well, the fact that it caused Rin plenty of stress was obvious, but at what point did it cross the line between "stressful, hectic and draining her of energy" to "pushing her off the rails"? Because "stressful, hectic and draining of energy" are also ways to describe the entrance exams to Japan's most prestigious universities and thousands of students go through that thing every year. In many ways Rin's exhibition could be considered an early entrance exam.

It was supposed to be hard and stressful...otherwise, everyone could do it. I personally wasn't immediately like: "She's not having fun, so instead of encouraging her to hang in there, I'll root for Hisao to talk her out of it." I might have missed it. The tricky thing was that Rin herself didn't even know if she did or didn't want to pursue art as a career and if not, what she did want to do.

Alright, good point. You win this debate my friend- you have convinced me.

But I still find that Nomiya still comes across as caring more about Rin's art than Rin herself.

Well, I seem to have created an account just to reply to this thread.

What do I think of Nomiya... that's a tough question to answer, but I think I can say for sure that I don't like him.

Rin's route - my first route - struck some huge chords with me. Like Rin, I'm whimsical. Like Rin, I don't get people. Like Rin, I'm afraid of changing myself. But most importantly, I find that the people in my life tend to... ah, what was it?

"People are doing things I don't ask for and don't want and everyone keeps getting angry at me, I have no idea what is going on any more and can't stop feeling like I want to run away from everything..."

It seemed to me that, during Act 2, Rin really didn't want to do the exhibition, but at the same time, she didn't want Nomiya's efforts to go to waste. This is because Nomiya's been, dare I say it, a friend to her for a long time. She never asked for or wanted an exhibition, but her limited understanding of social etiquette is enough to convince her that it's a good thing to do. Isn't that interesting? Nomiya set up the exhibition because he thought Rin wanted it, and Rin says she wants it because Nomiya set up the exhibition.

Up to this point, Hisao is just as much to blame as Nomiya; In fact, I think Rin might have denied Nomiya's offer if Hisao hadn't pressured her into it. Neither makes an attempt to listen to Rin's own plans for her future. Hisao claims that Nomiya's forcing her through "one door in particular," but that's really hypocritical.

Now, let's skip forward to after the exhibition, approaching the good ending, when Nomiya is barking at Rin.

Allow me to make something perfectly clear here: Rin sucks at apologizing. She also sucks at standing up for herself or simply changing her mind. Hell, I'd say that Rin is weaker, socially, than Hanako. Hanako's at least willing to risk hurting other people because she needs to. Rin would shoot herself if Nomiya said it would make a good painting. Just because she's best Katawa doesn't mean she's flawless, or even close to it.

Anyway, Nomiya takes Rin's not-apology very poorly. He could have tried to reassure her that stage fright, etc, is very common, and that she shouldn't feel bad about it. Instead, he berates her for, quite simply, being afraid. That's unforgivable in my book.

Or maybe he just misinterpreted her reasons for leaving. This is another similarity between Rin and me - we fail to do something because of our own damn personal flaws, but everyone insists we don't give a shit. Nomiya is doing that insisting and thinks that everything he did for Rin was meaningless. I can understand why he'd be, at the very least, angry in this situation. Rin doesn't explain herself very well here, either.

Even if we assume that Nomiya is just confused and angry and that Rin just isn't explaining herself properly, look at what he does next.

"You're not an artist at all."

Nomiya's last line is the one that stole any sympathy I had left for him. He doesn't try to accept Rin for who she is. He doesn't try to salvage their relationship. Hell, he doesn't try to put her back on the path he put her on in the first place by continuing to support her artistic career. He just fucking gives up.

It's also worth mentioning that he gives up on Rin because she doesn't fit into Nomiya's extremely narrow and limited definition of "an artist." Nomiya is very unaccepting of other peoples' opinions and viewpoints - from "the philistines" who would want to see some of Rin's simpler works to his rivalry with Mutou (which, interestingly, is going to be a plot point in a fanfiction I'm writing.) I can only imagine what he thinks of people who come from different cultures entirely, like us.

Mmkay, you know what? I take back what I said at the beginning of this post. I know for sure that Nomiya is an ass.

But I'd also like to talk about what Nomiya represents - social expectation. As much as Nomiya is an ass, someone had to do what he did. Rin doesn't need peer pressure from an ass, but that doesn't mean that she can live independently of the expectations of others. Just like the rest of us, she has responsibilities to the people around her, and if she doesn't fulfill them, she'll end up alone.

TL;DR: Nomiya's an ass, but he's a complex, human ass. Also, the word "ass" no longer looks like a word.

Jailbreaker wrote:Just like the rest of us, she has responsibilities to the people around her, and if she doesn't fulfill them, she'll end up alone.

In what way would not becoming a famous artist lead to her ending up alone? If that's what Nomiya's meant to represent, he's a flimsy representation at best.

Jailbreaker wrote:Well, I seem to have created an account just to reply to this thread.

I'm glad you did, because that was pretty interesting. Just to preface my remarks in the interest of full disclosure: I'm one of those who couldn't connect that well with Rin or her story. So hearing from someone who did — and they all seem to be, like you, birds of a feather with her — gives a good insight. And might I say, for someone who counts himself like Rin, you're pretty good with words. High-functioning Rinism, if you will.

Nomiya set up the exhibition because he thought Rin wanted it, and Rin says she wants it because Nomiya set up the exhibition.

I'm not so sure that's why he set it up. I think he was trying to give her a slingshot-boost into the art world, so she could have a successful career in it — not because she wanted it, but because it would be the best career path for her. And, probably, to some small extent at least, to compensate for his own aborted art career.

Neither makes an attempt to listen to Rin's own plans for her future.

As far as I can tell, she didn't have any. Unless you spotted something I missed…?

Rin would shoot herself if Nomiya said it would make a good painting.

Really? That's kind of fascinating; I didn't get that sense at all. How are you picking up on this?

He could have tried to reassure her that stage fright, etc, is very common, and that she shouldn't feel bad about it. Instead, he berates her for, quite simply, being afraid. That's unforgivable in my book.

Mmmmm, yeah. He does let his emotions get the better of him here. But then again, who among us hasn't done that?

Or maybe he just misinterpreted her reasons for leaving. This is another similarity between Rin and me - we fail to do something because of our own damn personal flaws, but everyone insists we don't give a shit. Nomiya is doing that insisting and thinks that everything he did for Rin was meaningless. I can understand why he'd be, at the very least, angry in this situation. Rin doesn't explain herself very well here, either.

This seems pretty likely. I felt a lot like that myself about Rin. Try to have an important discussion, receive a shrug and a stare into space. Fairly maddening.

"You're not an artist at all."

Actually, it's "You are not an artist after all.". Probably too subtle a difference to diminish your argument, though.

He just fucking gives up.

Yup. Again, he lets his anger ruin it.

he gives up on Rin because she doesn't fit into Nomiya's extremely narrow and limited definition of "an artist."

I don't think that's quite it. He doesn't really mean that. He's just lashing out. He's pulled all sorts of strings to get this special situation set up for her, and it ended up badly. So he feels like his efforts were flushed down the toilet.

Nomiya is very unaccepting of other peoples' opinions and viewpoints - from "the philistines" who would want to see some of Rin's simpler works to his rivalry with Mutou (which, interestingly, is going to be a plot point in a fanfiction I'm writing.) I can only imagine what he thinks of people who come from different cultures entirely, like us.

To me, it feels less like a general unaccepting nature and more of a fixation on the supremacy of the value of art. And the more artsy, the better. Rin's more complicated pieces must be better than her simpler ones because they have "more art"; the people who can't appreciate that are not art-minded enough and thus philistines; Mutou is about science, not art, and is therefore inferior.

But I'd also like to talk about what Nomiya represents - social expectation. As much as Nomiya is an ass, someone had to do what he did. Rin doesn't need peer pressure from an ass, but that doesn't mean that she can live independently of the expectations of others. Just like the rest of us, she has responsibilities to the people around her, and if she doesn't fulfill them, she'll end up alone.

True; but I think he more specifically provides a counterpoint for Hisao. Nomiya makes demands of her, gets angry, and it ends poorly between them — just like Hisao did instead in the bad ending.

TL;DR: Nomiya's an ass, but he's a complex, human ass. Also, the word "ass" no longer looks like a word.

"Ass, ass, ass, ass, ass, ass, ass, ass, ass!" —Bender Bending Rodríguez

Potato wrote:

Jailbreaker wrote:Just like the rest of us, she has responsibilities to the people around her, and if she doesn't fulfill them, she'll end up alone.

In what way would not becoming a famous artist lead to her ending up alone? If that's what Nomiya's meant to represent, he's a flimsy representation at best.

I think he means just the general idea of having to make enough of an attempt to be able to deal with people that she doesn't end up alienating them all. Not specifically becoming a famous artist.

Atario wrote:Really? That's kind of fascinating; I didn't get that sense at all. How are you picking up on this?

I don't think that's quite it. He doesn't really mean that. He's just lashing out. He's pulled all sorts of strings to get this special situation set up for her, and it ended up badly. So he feels like his efforts were flushed down the toilet.

Well, she starves and isolates herself, driving herself to the brink of despair and madness because Nomiya told her to paint...So it's pretty easy to make the jump.

And that spoilered bit reminds me of an anti-moral from The Looney Tunes Show (courtesy of Daffy Duck): "Don't try anything new ever unless you're guaranteed success"...Suffice to say, there's a reason it's an anti-moral: It's dumb, and Nomiya needs to chill out.

He's an asshole. He treats Rin more like an art machine than a person, has no concept or interest in what she really wants, and throws a fit when things don't go his way.

In his defense, Rin herself has no concept of what she really wants either. Even in her good ending, she still has no idea. The process of cranking out picture after picture after picture is actually rather close to the real-life process artists have to follow in order to go professional. It was never supposed to be fun. It's really hard work.

Guest Poster wrote:In his defense, Rin herself has no concept of what she really wants either. Even in her good ending, she still has no idea. The process of cranking out picture after picture after picture is actually rather close to the real-life process artists have to follow in order to go professional. It was never supposed to be fun. It's really hard work.

True... but still, he screamed at a young amputee girl. He also wrote off Rin's art as 'worth less than a mosquito's shit', simply because she didn't hang around to talk about it.
The fact that she sold a painting anyways shows she has a lot of potential as a professional artist, despite her eccentricities (was there ever an artist who wasn't a little eccentric), and an art teacher is supposed to help a student take recognize and develop their talents. He's completely writing off Rin, as an artist and as a person, just because things didn't go just the way he wanted.

Nobody is mean to Rin and still ends up being likable to me.

SpunkySix wrote:Nobody is mean to Rin and still ends up being likable to me.

*hugs* Yes. YES. This right here.

Guest Poster wrote:In his defense, Rin herself has no concept of what she really wants either. Even in her good ending, she still has no idea. The process of cranking out picture after picture after picture is actually rather close to the real-life process artists have to follow in order to go professional. It was never supposed to be fun. It's really hard work.

I'm confused as to how this is a defense of him at all. He's a shitty person and a shitty teacher, for reasons someguy elaborated on already, whether or not Rin had any ideas.

Nomiya pulled a lot of string in order to get Rin that chance. If he was a shitty teacher, he probably wouldn't have put forth any of that effort and certainly wouldn't have encouraged her.

Oddball wrote:Nomiya pulled a lot of string in order to get Rin that chance. If he was a shitty teacher, he probably wouldn't have put forth any of that effort and certainly wouldn't have encouraged her.

Yes, it is frustrating to build up an event for someone and have them run off,but Nomiya went completely overboard in his reaction. I just went back and reread 'Measuring Shadows', and the thing that threw him over the edge was this:

Rin: "I am not a resolved person."

...Why should she be? She's a high-school student. Why the heck WOULD she be resolved as a person? How many people really know who and what they are when they're still in high school? I sure as hell didn't...

Nomiya saw Rin literally collapse under the pressure of the interviewers: if he had any kind of sensitivity or awareness, any kind of real caring or understanding for his students, he wouldn't have been angry. He would have been concerned. It was clear Rin was in a bad place.

Honestly, I don't think Nomiya put that event together because he cared about Rin. He did it because he saw Rin as a resource he could exploit. That show was for him, not Rin.

Oddball wrote:Nomiya pulled a lot of string in order to get Rin that chance. If he was a shitty teacher, he probably wouldn't have put forth any of that effort and certainly wouldn't have encouraged her.

And if he wasn't a shitty teacher, he probably wouldn't have totally lost his shit and torn apart his student and all her effort (in both cases all but physically) over the one terrible crime of not answering questions from strangers.

In light of that, all his effort and encouragement just reinforces the already-present impression (thanks to his backstory with Sae and Dead Art Guy) that the whole thing was largely an attempt to gain recognition vicariously through Rin.

I wanna talk about the comparison between Hisao and Nomiya that keeps popping up...

Even in the game itself, Hisao compares Nomiya's outburst to his own. I... have trouble buying this. Why?

-Hisao cares about Rin as a person.
-Nomiya cares about Rin because she makes good art.
-Rin pushed Hisao away and neglected him.
-Rin didn't push Nomiya away. She ran away the interviewers, not from him.
-Hisao did everything he could to try and understand Rin.
-Nomiya... didn't.

Honestly, Hisao needed to chew Rin out. He was justified. She needed to wake up and understand that she couldn't ignore people who cared about her.

Nomiya's attack on the other hand, was utterly unfounded. Rin's leaving the gallery wasn't a strike against him; it was her reaction to being pushed into something she never wanted to do in the first place.