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Something tells me she'll like Lilly a great deal more then, if that was the reaction to Rin. But if not, please do post. I'm very interested in the 'final score', as it were.

Loonie wrote:Something tells me she'll like Lilly a great deal more then, if that was the reaction to Rin. But if not, please do post. I'm very interested in the 'final score', as it were.

Knowing her tastes as I do, I agree. It's the other reason I saved Lilly for last, wanting to end the sequence on an upswing. She's gotten so attached to Emi that I don't know how the final rankings play out, but for right now the canon definitely goes Emi > Hanako > Shizune > Rin, although as mentioned above that goes ONLY for canon.

Besides, I needed to work on my Vivien Leigh voice...

dewelar wrote:

Loonie wrote:Something tells me she'll like Lilly a great deal more then, if that was the reaction to Rin. But if not, please do post. I'm very interested in the 'final score', as it were.

Knowing her tastes as I do, I agree.

Well, that shows what I know.

I read the Lilly arc to my friend last night. Forgot how long it was, and we wound up going past 4 AM. Not the first time we've done that, so I don't think it had any bearing on her feelings. Also, she said she wasn't "feeling" this arc even from the tail-end of Act 1, so things were off to a rocky start. She actually got angry enough at Hisao to yell at him in Act 3 when he startled Lilly into cutting her finger. She had a negative reaction to a lot of things in the arc, really, most notably:

* The lack of buildup to the first lovemaking scene. She did like the others, though.
* The sheer length of Act 4
* The repetitive nature of the dialogue, especially in Act 4 again
* The "speechifying", especially Lilly's going-away pep talk to Hanako
* She didn't buy into the character development of either Hisao or Lilly like she did the characters in the other arcs -- especially with Lilly, due to the way the ending played out.
* The "motherly" aspect of Lilly didn't sit well either
* She also felt the small reconciliation with Shizune was kind of lost in the shuffle of what was happening, and deserved a bigger moment

Mind you, her feedback wasn't all negative - she did like the story, and she did cry a bit when she heard the music box, and she also appreciated the fact that Kenji actually got shown as having a human side towards the end. An observation we both made was of how the side characters in this arc might have actually had more growth than in any of the others - not just Kenji and Hanako, but also Yuuko and Akira. While we think that was meant to reflect Hisao's influence on them (as is outright stated in Hanako's case), my friend thought it felt like a serious violation of the "Show, Don't Tell" rule of writing. For the first and only time in the game, the B Plots drew her interest much more than the A Plot, if you will, and she would have rather heard that story. Given all of that, my friend decided that it was her least favorite of the arcs.

So, final rankings for my friend:

Favorite arc: Emi > Hanako > Shizune > Rin > Lilly
Favorite girl: Emi > Shizune > Hanako > Lilly > Rin

By the end of doing all of this, we had a major "You can't resist the Emi" meme going, because every time she came on screen, my friend just couldn't help but want to go hang out with her, or give her a hug. It got a bit distracting .

Doing this obviously had an effect on my own view of things as well. I have so many ways I rank these arcs in my head now that I can't really break them down as simply as the above, but I have to say I found a greater appreciation for both Shizune and Hanako through this reading than before. Thinking about the characters in different ways drew out some of what I felt was missing previously.

Strangely, it had the opposite effect on the character I previously considered my favorite, which is Rin. While I still love the character, and can relate to the character deeply...I found myself lost in trying to figure out why Hisao felt connected to Rin, or why he developed the near-obsessive behavior over her. I mean, I can understand it, but I found myself struggling to feel it through reading. That's part of why I wrote so little about Rin after reading, too, because I was processing for myself why this was the case.

I think, maybe, it's because reading for someone else forces you to think about things more, and react more inside your head, so your reactions are less...visceral. It's stated right there - the Rin arc isn't about logic, it isn't about thinking...it's about being. I really, really need to come back to that again.

So, that's the end, I guess. My friend has asked me to re-read her the Emi arc so as not to end the stories on a down note for her, so I'll be doing that soon. I'll also be reading her more of the fan works over the coming days/weeks/months, because now that she's got my voices for the characters in her head, hearing somebody else reading them is going to weird her out (or so she says ). Hope those of you who followed this, or are reading this for the first time, enjoyed whatever insights there were. If anyone is interested on future related thoughts, or would like to suggest a particular fan work to read and share the results, I will gladly return to this thread and post them.

Well, that was an unexpected end of story, but, well, we all have our preferences. Thank you for sharing your experience.

dewelar wrote: She had a negative reaction to a lot of things in the arc

She was blind to the truth of how good the arc is.

CFC Kyle wrote:

dewelar wrote: She had a negative reaction to a lot of things in the arc

She was blind to the truth of how good the arc is.

I think she just wants to erase the arc from her memory.

You know, the blind deleting the blind?

dewelar wrote:

CFC Kyle wrote:

dewelar wrote: She had a negative reaction to a lot of things in the arc

She was blind to the truth of how good the arc is.

I think she just wants to erase the arc from her memory.

You know, the blind deleting the blind?

Hurr hurr. From how the girl was described though I guess it makes sense that she wouldn't like Lilly very much because she reminds me a lot of Shizune. It's just a shame she'll never hear my opinion.
*Goes off giggling in a corner*

dewelar wrote: She had a negative reaction to a lot of things in the arc

CFC Kyle wrote:She was blind to the truth of how good the arc is.

dewelar wrote:I think she just wants to erase the arc from her memory.

You know, the blind deleting the blind?

CFC Kyle wrote:Hurr hurr. From how the girl was described though I guess it makes sense that she wouldn't like Lilly very much because she reminds me a lot of Shizune. It's just a shame she'll never hear my opinion.
*Goes off giggling in a corner*

Hmmm.

*shrug*

dewelar wrote:

all them quotes

Hmmm.

*shrug*

I just literally lost the game.
Sorry for making no sense.

Hahahah, ahhh...goes to show you never can quite tell. Up till this point, in my mind, I always kinda had a sortof scale (not of which girl is best girl, but a kinda general way of how girls' personalities flow from one end to the other if that makes sense) with Lilly on the one end and Rin on the other, but I guess it really isn't quite that clear-cut. Stupid me.

Still, a preferrence for Emi and Shizune does make a lot of sense in hindsight. They're pretty similar in a fair number of ways (both are driven, independent, energetic ect.) so I suppose that's what you could call the third direction on this 'scale' of mine (which by now makes no solid sense in my head at all).

I think, maybe, it's because reading for someone else forces you to think about things more, and react more inside your head, so your reactions are less...visceral. It's stated right there - the Rin arc isn't about logic, it isn't about thinking...it's about being. I really, really need to come back to that again.

Yep, I think this is close to the heart of it. I honestly feel that Rin's arc was tailor-made to be read alone for optimum effects. Primarily, because the entire arc revolves around that theme so heavily (the theme of always being stuck inside your head and mindset, of never really managing to escape the person that you are, of isolating yourself from the rest of society - being alone precisely because of who you are - and of how you choose to deal with that fact).

If you read Rin's arc to someone else, you share the experience and automatically feel less...alone...while you're doing it. And funnily enough, that also distances you emotionally from the central theme of Rin's arc (of being alone and feeling incapable of really connecting to others). So you have a moreso introverted arc that you read while doing an extroverted activity (reading to someone else). Unsurprisingly that would result in being incapable to empathize with the main characters that are going through it at the same level.

Shizune's route, on the other hand, is very social and vibrant as is Emi's route. Both are moreso extroverted, so reading all those energetic scenes to someone else only enhances that emotion. As you yourself have said: you start to coin running gags and such, like 'You can't resist the Emi' and suddenly you're not just reading, but playing. Feeling energetic - like the main characters whose story you are also reading.

At least, that's my theory on it. But it would explain your strangely different reaction to Rin's arc this time around and it would propose something very interesting: Stories with extroverted themes are enhanced by reading them together with someone else, whereas stories with introverted themes are enhanced by reading them as one usually does - alone.

Loonie wrote:Hahahah, ahhh...goes to show you never can quite tell. Up till this point, in my mind, I always kinda had a sortof scale (not of which girl is best girl, but a kinda general way of how girls' personalities flow from one end to the other if that makes sense) with Lilly on the one end and Rin on the other, but I guess it really isn't quite that clear-cut. Stupid me.

Rin is orthogonal to everything.

Still, a preferrence for Emi and Shizune does make a lot of sense in hindsight. They're pretty similar in a fair number of ways (both are driven, independent, energetic ect.) so I suppose that's what you could call the third direction on this 'scale' of mine (which by now makes no solid sense in my head at all).

Nope, it's still two axis, because Rin is orthogonal to everything. See previous statement.

I think, maybe, it's because reading for someone else forces you to think about things more, and react more inside your head, so your reactions are less...visceral. It's stated right there - the Rin arc isn't about logic, it isn't about thinking...it's about being. I really, really need to come back to that again.

Yep, I think this is close to the heart of it. I honestly feel that Rin's arc was tailor-made to be read alone for optimum effects. Primarily, because the entire arc revolves around that theme so heavily (the theme of always being stuck inside your head and mindset, of never really managing to escape the person that you are, of isolating yourself from the rest of society - being alone precisely because of who you are - and of how you choose to deal with that fact).

If you read Rin's arc to someone else, you share the experience and automatically feel less...alone...while you're doing it. And funnily enough, that also distances you emotionally from the central theme of Rin's arc (of being alone and feeling incapable of really connecting to others). So you have a moreso introverted arc that you read while doing an extroverted activity (reading to someone else). Unsurprisingly that would result in being incapable to empathize with the main characters that are going through it at the same level.

I agree, this is an excellent way of looking at it.

Shizune's route, on the other hand, is very social and vibrant as is Emi's route. Both are moreso extroverted, so reading all those energetic scenes to someone else only enhances that emotion. As you yourself have said: you start to coin running gags and such, like 'You can't resist the Emi' and suddenly you're not just reading, but playing. Feeling energetic - like the main characters whose story you are also reading.

It would explain why those are the two characters to which she's most drawn, yes. I think it also explains her great fondness for "Weekend at Hisao's".

At least, that's my theory on it. But it would explain your strangely different reaction to Rin's arc this time around and it would propose something very interesting: Stories with extroverted themes are enhanced by reading them together with someone else, whereas stories with introverted themes are enhanced by reading them as one usually does - alone.

Another part of it is that it's a lot easier to put good energy into those sorts of stories. A lot depends on your audience, but I know my female friend is not, generally, big on darker stories in general. It's why she has no interest in anything but the Good Endings, and also why I expected Rin to be at the bottom entirely as well. I'd forgotten her highly character-focused POV in the process. Heh.

dewelar wrote:She had a negative reaction to a lot of things in the arc, really, most notably:

* The lack of buildup to the first lovemaking scene. She did like the others, though.
* The sheer length of Act 4
* The repetitive nature of the dialogue, especially in Act 4 again
* The "speechifying", especially Lilly's going-away pep talk to Hanako
* She didn't buy into the character development of either Hisao or Lilly like she did the characters in the other arcs -- especially with Lilly, due to the way the ending played out.
* The "motherly" aspect of Lilly didn't sit well either
* She also felt the small reconciliation with Shizune was kind of lost in the shuffle of what was happening, and deserved a bigger moment

I'm not sure I understand these objections completely.

• The "buildup" to the first lovemaking scene was Lilly's grand dramatic confession scene. What more could one want?
• Length is bad now?
• There was no reconciliation scene with Lilly at all in Shizune's route, but that gets a pass?

Bah. My own theory here is that your friend is simply a "first girl wins" sort of person. Her preferences of the routes follows the order you read them to her exactly.

What the hell is "speechifying"?

When mundane things are turned into lengthy, pseudo-motivational monologues for no apparent reason.

Atario wrote:The "buildup" to the first lovemaking scene was Lilly's grand dramatic confession scene. What more could one want?

*nods* I think she was complaining about the lack of...how to put this...smaller physical events. A date or two, without even a kiss, and then right to the lovemaking. Didn't bother me, really, so...*shrug*.

Atario wrote:Length is bad now?

That one I expressed badly, I think. I believe there are longer acts in the game. She thought this one felt long, where the others didn't. On this one, I tend to agree with her. Act 4 does drag somewhat.

Atario wrote:There was no reconciliation scene with Lilly at all in Shizune's route, but that gets a pass?

I think that might have been her point -- i.e., the fact that there was one here and not there should have had more significance for that reason.

Atario wrote:Bah. My own theory here is that your friend is simply a "first girl wins" sort of person. Her preferences of the routes follows the order you read them to her exactly.

I noticed that as well, and mentioned it to her at the time. She didn't really have an explanation. Since this is the first work of this type I've read to her, I can neither confirm nor deny, but...yeah, it's distinctly possible. However, I will say that she was pretty vehement in her issues with the Lilly arc, and it was the only one she actually interrupted mid-scene to express them.

Xanatos wrote:What the hell is "speechifying"?

Hmmm...this is a tough question, because it's one of those "know it when I hear it" things. The best way I can give is that it's the tendency for characters in a work to give speeches rather than talk to people naturally (ETA: Or, yeah, pretty much what BlackWaltz said). Personally, I think that tendency is Lilly's nature, so don't shoot the messenger .