Katawa Shoujo Forums

MegaMoto wrote:But having your girlfriend just disappear without telling you is better for you depression.

I have no idea how to respond to this.

Guest Poster wrote:

It does seem kind of odd that she never has a negative word to say about her folks.

I don't think it is. It fits in well with the confucian moral code that Lilly probably grew up with or was at least taught in her previous school(s). Part of that is absolute loyalty to parental figures. Another part of it is to never speak ill about them to anyone who isn't part of the family. It's a big social no-no.

I suppose. Sure didn't stop Akira though.

pandaphil wrote:

Guest Poster wrote:

It does seem kind of odd that she never has a negative word to say about her folks.

I don't think it is. It fits in well with the confucian moral code that Lilly probably grew up with or was at least taught in her previous school(s). Part of that is absolute loyalty to parental figures. Another part of it is to never speak ill about them to anyone who isn't part of the family. It's a big social no-no.

I suppose. Sure didn't stop Akira though.

I believe Akira told her boyfriend.

pandaphil wrote:

Guest Poster wrote:

It does seem kind of odd that she never has a negative word to say about her folks.

I don't think it is. It fits in well with the confucian moral code that Lilly probably grew up with or was at least taught in her previous school(s). Part of that is absolute loyalty to parental figures. Another part of it is to never speak ill about them to anyone who isn't part of the family. It's a big social no-no.

I suppose. Sure didn't stop Akira though.

Akira drinks so much that she stops giving a shit about it.

Steinherz wrote:

MegaMoto wrote:The ting that bothered me is that she waited til the last minute letting you belive everything is fine even though she knew for months. MOTHER FUCKING MONTHS !

She's probably going off the whole "Japanese don't like hearing/giving bad news" stereotype. Hence why she didn't tell him, or she didn't want him to be depressed... again

That, and probably the fact that Lilly still didn't know exactly how to handle things.

Pardon the cliche, but she was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either way, somebody got hurt, which is the last thing Lilly wanted to do to anyone. I'd say part of her was still trying to figure out exactly what to do about things and another part was hoping that things would somehow all fall into place and she wouldn't have to make any kind of decision at all.

Oddball wrote:hoping that things would somehow all fall into place and she wouldn't have to make any kind of decision at all.

Ironically, that's a big flaw of Hisao's in her route.

Guest Poster: lots of good points there.

And what you said is pretty much what I thought about the intention with Lilly, but the question stands: were we supposed to accept this package deal? Although I suppose since the Good End was intended as a, well, good end, that kinda answers it. And for those of us who find that hard, well, there's four other routes...

Now I wish there was an actual Bad Ending, rather than the "you failed to unlock the final scenes" sort of thing we have now. One where Hisao actually realizes "I wasn't expecting this BS, Lilly isn't who I naively thought she was, okay, let her go to Scotland". And he acts on it in a way that marrs the decorum with which Lilly extracts herself, makes it more of a downer. Probably not on the level of Hanako's bad end, but at least something.

Of course for that to happen Hisao would have to suddenly stop being such a passive participant, and his passiveness was kind of the point of the route. But it could still carry the same sort of moral: Hisao realizes at the end that it was this trait of his that doomed the relationship, and finds it bitter irony that by the time he discovered he knows how to not be like that, it was too late, and it could only manifest negatively.

Markus Ramikin wrote:Guest Poster: lots of good points there.

And what you said is pretty much what I thought about the intention with Lilly, but the question stands: were we supposed to accept this package deal? Although I suppose since the Good End was intended as a, well, good end, that kinda answers it. And for those of us who find that hard, well, there's four other routes...

Now I kinda wish there was an actual Bad Ending, rather than the "you failed to unlock the final scenes" sort of thing we have now. One where Hisao actually realizes "I wasn't expecting this BS, Lilly isn't who I naively thought she was, okay, I'm gonna let her go". And acts on it in a way that marrs the decorum with which Lilly extracts herself, makes it more of a downer. Maybe not on the level of Hanako's bad end, but at least something.

Yeah, her and Rin got lame bad ends but Rin compensates with the allegedly neutral one. XP

BTW, is it actually true that Japanese don't like hearing bad news? I know they don't like giving it, and they justify it by not wanting to hurt the other person, but do the recipients of this treatment (and I don't mean bewildered westerners) really prefer it that way?

I'm trying to figure out if this is just a "different culture but it works just as well in its own way" thing - or just a huge passive-aggressive trap that makes them all unhappy, but they're trained to be that way anyway.

Markus Ramikin wrote:BTW, is it actually true that Japanese don't like hearing bad news? I know they don't like giving it, and they justify it by not wanting to hurt the other person, but do the recipients of this treatment (and I don't mean bewildered westerners) really prefer it that way?

I'm trying to figure out if this is just a "different culture but it works just as well in its own way" thing - or just a huge passive-aggressive trap that makes them all unhappy, but they're trained to be that way anyway.

I'd imagine that varies by person but as something they've basically been raised with, many are probably fine enough. Though it can't be terribly good for anyone to go around bottling up all their bad news all the time...

Thanks to the internet, I know for a fact that some aren't fans of it but we need some Japanese forumgoers. to pop in for an answer.

BTW, is it actually true that Japanese don't like hearing bad news?

Can you name a person anywhere that likes hearing bad news?

Oddball wrote:

BTW, is it actually true that Japanese don't like hearing bad news?

Can you name a person anywhere that likes hearing bad news?

Uh, if the bad news is already /there/ - if there is a problem - then I generally prefer being openly confronted about it rather than to find out later that I've been deceived, that the other person suffered in silence, and that now I have to deal with piled-up consequences from the problem having been ignored.

I like hearing bad news more than I like fake harmony.

I suppose. Sure didn't stop Akira though.

Akira doesn't exactly behave like a typical Japanese to begin with.

That, and probably the fact that Lilly still didn't know exactly how to handle things.

Pardon the cliche, but she was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either way, somebody got hurt, which is the last thing Lilly wanted to do to anyone. I'd say part of her was still trying to figure out exactly what to do about things and another part was hoping that things would somehow all fall into place and she wouldn't have to make any kind of decision at all.

Very much true. She was in a no-win situation. There's also the fact that Lilly didn't really have anyone she felt she could consult with. Hisao and Hanako wouldn't fit the role of objective listener very well and would probably merely be distressed and Akira, who I'd figure she could usually approach whenever something was bothering her, was far too biased to offer a balanced point of view. And Japanese aren't particularly known for their individual decisiveness to begin with.

Guest Poster: lots of good points there.

And what you said is pretty much what I thought about the intention with Lilly, but the question stands: were we supposed to accept this package deal? Although I suppose since the Good End was intended as a, well, good end, that kinda answers it. And for those of us who find that hard, well, there's four other routes...

I think so. If Hisao was unable to forgive Lilly, there'd be no point in nearly killing himself in an attempt to pursue her. He'd be better off letting Lilly proceed with her migration and asking Hanako out once he's moved into the acception stage of the breakup with Lilly. But like I mentioned earlier, a traditional Japanese dismissing a request from parental figures is a bit like an American renouncing his citizenship. (or the constitution...pick one) For someone like Lilly this was a very big deal that would certainly justify a second chance.

I think it's worth mentioning that the conflict in Lilly's route was a rather special and unique scenario caused by a combination of several factors; her unquestionable loyalty towards her parents (which she kind of dealt with in the good ending), her tendency to avoid confrontations and her habit of not really speaking her mind. The former isn't very likely to come up in everyday situations and in everyday life, Lilly compensates for her tendency of not being confrontational, by gently and subtly nudging people towards her own point of view. An example took place in Hanako's route. After Hanako's party, Hisao makes a comment to Lilly that reveals his budding white knight tendencies. Lilly, even while slightly drunk, refrains from calling Hisao out on it directly and arranges the jazz club outing in order to create circumstances where Hisao gets to have fun with Hanako so he'd see her more as a friend and less as a little sister to protect. It end ups backfiring and Hisao later mistakes Lilly's approach as manipulation, but this indirect nudging is simply the way Lilly handles things. The phone call does show that Lilly can be straight-forward when the stakes are down, but it's kind of a last resort and not something that comes naturally to her.

Some people who deal with the Japanese as part of their job feel that Japanese are "two-faced", saying stuff like "We will consider it" while meaning "We reject your proposal". Japan has a very high-context culture and people there have a saying that goes: "Say one thing, understand ten". In other words, reading between the lines, properly interpreting non-verbal cues and applying context to the situation are neccessary to communicate on even a basic level.

Lilly has lots of good points. She's a caring person who genuinely loves her friends and who enjoys having fun. She's also responsible and dependable. A situation like the one with her parents was rather unique and unlikely to happen on a regular basis, so assuming that Lilly suffers from chronic backstabbing disorder is misunderstanding who she is. However, in order to make a relationship with Lilly work, her boyfriend WOULD need to learn how to read between the lines and not merely focus on the verbal cues in order to deal with her non-confrontational tendencies. It would take a lot of frustrations out of the relationship.

Markus Ramikin wrote:

Oddball wrote:

BTW, is it actually true that Japanese don't like hearing bad news?

Can you name a person anywhere that likes hearing bad news?

Uh, if the bad news is already /there/ - if there is a problem - then I generally prefer being openly confronted about it rather than to find out later that I've been deceived, that the other person suffered in silence, and that now I have to deal with piled-up consequences from the problem having been ignored.

I like hearing bad news more than I like fake harmony.

This guy get's it.

Uh, if the bad news is already /there/ - if there is a problem - then I generally prefer being openly confronted about it rather than to find out later that I've been deceived, that the other person suffered in silence, and that now I have to deal with piled-up consequences from the problem having been ignored.

I like hearing bad news more than I like fake harmony.

There's a whole pile of examples about how Japanese companies managed to keep countless zombiefied projects around for years that weren't going anywhere and would never go anywhere, but nobody would shut them down because nobody wanted to rock the boat. Very often, keeping bad news to oneself meant saving face for someone, somewhere and people who cause others (especially superiors) to lose face have about the same social standing in Japan as child molesters do in the US. That said, Japanese often try to work around that by subtle hint dropping, though obviously that doesn't always work.

What also matters is the size of the group. If person A is terminal and person B is the doctor who made a diagnosis, person B might tell person A in private. However, if person C, person D and person E were present, person B might feel that he'd also upset the harmony between the others and thus he might try to sugarcoat things so the latter three people won't think badly of him. It's kinda like asking for directions. If it's one person (and especially if he's younger than you), he might admit he doesn't know how to get to address X. If it's a larger group and the person you ask doesn't know, he needs to save face in front of his peers and is guaranteed to pull an answer out of his ass. So...best thing to do is engage in a one-on-one talk.

"Fake harmony" is pretty much an oxymoron because Japanese are human too and occasionally bother the hell out of each other, as much as Americans or Europeans do. They just can't talk about it openly. Japan's "Wa"-principle is pretty much the ultimate example of the emperor's new clothes. That said, you have to understand where they come from. If you were a settler getting into a spat with a neighbour on the western frontier, it didn't matter if you openly voiced your disdain of him because ultimately you could simply move a few miles and you'd be out of each other's hair. Japan is a small, but extremely crowded country and they don't have that luxury. Kind of like being locked in a small mountain cabin with a group of other people for months, you need some sort of system to prevent the people from driving each other nuts.

In western culture, we value objective facts and "hard truth" above all else. Publically owing up to mistakes made actually causes people to be given face rather than lose it. Not so much in Asia. Asian culture believes truth is contextual and rather than thinking in "right" or "wrong", Asian culture focusses more on whether people in a situation act the way they are expected to act.

With all that said, getting back to the person who's terminal...that may be a good analogy for Lilly's situation. If a person knew he was going to die within a month, we could probably admire him if he decided that instead of immediately announcing it, he'd keep it to himself so he could make a few more wonderful memories with his loved ones instead of giving them a month of every-increasing emotional pain. Given Lilly's disposition towards her parents, she probably felt that her departure was as inevitable as an actual terminal disease and it was better not to cause Hisao and Hanako undue distress.