Katawa Shoujo Forums

muliebrity wrote: I guess that's true, it may be more appropriate for chat, but on the other hand this chatting has certainly made me feel welcome despite everyone's claims that they're cruel to newbies. We can chat as long as we also stay on topic, yeah? As someone new to VNs, it's been interesting anyway.

There's nothing wrong with chatting and even going off-topic, mods will usually only lock threads that get REALLY off-topic or flamewarish, it's just that I personally don't use forums much for chatting.

muliebrity wrote: Okay, so I'm new to VNs, but I still struggle with the idea that a continuation, which has to pick one ending by necessity, doesn't count as word-of-god that there's a canon ending. Are you just seeing it as a continuation of that particular route? I have to say that it doesn't bother me as much if just one route is picked, but apparently there are several VNs that have true endings that completely contradict another ending on the same route, the unlockable sort.

That's just how Xanatos likes to interpret it. I think a true route ran over his dog or something >.>
There are true routes that are simply the canon route, and might differ from the other routes mainly by which heroine you pick, but most(and generally the better ones) are ones that have the protagonist start from the beginning, but with some or all of the knowledge/experience gained from the main routes, or in a slightly altered world, which allows you to drastically change the events of the VN. Of course, this means that the ending will most likely also completely contradict that of the other routes. These usually use a direct or implicit Groundhog Day loop and have the protagonist or other characters do things they normally wouldn't, which is why some people might not accept them as canon. Which is fair enough, at the end of the day you experience a VN the way you want to, not how others do.

Quazzy wrote: However, that being said, how often is it that a VN gets a sequel? It may be just because I'm not incredibly well versed in the medium, but I can only think of like 3 VN series that have sequels. I'd imagine it must be more common than I'm aware of.

It seems that most VN sequels are either planned from the start, so they're not really sequels but continuations of the story, fandisks, which give you some or all of the heroine's extended endings or spiritual successors usually set in the same universe, but containing few if any of the same characters or settings. I haven't read any VNs with direct sequels that weren't planned from the start, but I'm sure there are some.

muliebrity wrote:Okay, so I'm new to VNs, but I still struggle with the idea that a continuation, which has to pick one ending by necessity, doesn't count as word-of-god that there's a canon ending.

If there's a sequel (continuation), it's handled one of two ways: The previous events are tiptoed around to avoid explicit canon, or a particular route is retroactively made canon to provide a jumping-off point for the sequel. In that case, it's canon. It has to be for the sequel's sake so it gets a pass for actually having a valid reason.

But that isn't the same as a usual "true" end. The usual case is just "Here's this route that has no more legitimate validity than the others and has no need to be canon but we'll call it canon anyway because arbitrary bullshit."

Xanatos wrote:Oh, and ignore Flutterz. He apparently has no idea how I interpret this at all.

You say that true routes that are tied to one heroine instead of another are declared canon because arbitrary bullshit(and they often are), and you call overarching true routes, like the one in Little Busters! bonus endings. How is that not seeing them as simply continuations of a specific route and not accepting them as canon?

At this point I am not only curious, but I don't want to incorrectly declare other people's beliefs, so please do explain

Flutterz wrote:

Xanatos wrote:Oh, and ignore Flutterz. He apparently has no idea how I interpret this at all.

You say that true routes that are tied to one heroine instead of another are declared canon because arbitrary bullshit(and they often are), and you call overarching true routes, like the one in Little Busters! bonus endings. How is that not seeing them as simply continuations of a specific route and not accepting them as canon?

At this point I am not only curious, but I don't want to incorrectly declare other people's beliefs, so please do explain

Standard "true" routes: Arbitrary bullshit AKA bonus endings that aren't any truer at all.

Overarching route: Valid canon, only if it makes sense for the overall story. (KS has an overarching story of "Heart Attack Swagger Man goes to cripple school and has fun times" but declaring a true route adds nothing to that story and thus wouldn't make any sense for it. Having not completed 100% of Little Busters, I can't properly comment on it. I'm not aware of any overarching tale there or the context of said tale if there is one so I'm just assuming its 'true route' has little validity as well.)

Retroactive canon: Valid for sequel's sake.

Xanatos wrote:

Flutterz wrote:

Xanatos wrote:Oh, and ignore Flutterz. He apparently has no idea how I interpret this at all.

You say that true routes that are tied to one heroine instead of another are declared canon because arbitrary bullshit(and they often are), and you call overarching true routes, like the one in Little Busters! bonus endings. How is that not seeing them as simply continuations of a specific route and not accepting them as canon?

At this point I am not only curious, but I don't want to incorrectly declare other people's beliefs, so please do explain

Standard "true" routes: Arbitrary bullshit AKA bonus endings that aren't any truer at all.

Overarching route: Valid canon, provided it makes sense for the overall story. (KS has an overarching story of "Heart Attack Swagger Man goes to cripple school" but declaring a true route wouldn't make any sense for it. Having not completed 100% of Little Busters, I can't comment on it, but I'm not aware of any overarching tale there.)

Retroactive canon: Valid for sequel's sake.

Oh, that explains everything. I thought that you'd finished Little Busters. I guess it's a bit late to make a spoiler warning... But yes, there is an overarching plot in Little Busters, only it's really subtle in the main routes.

I guess we're pretty much in complete agreement then

Flutterz wrote:I guess we're pretty much in complete agreement then

Good. Just in case others get confused though. hypothetical example time:

Arbitrary bullshit: Emi's good end is the true one. Why? No reason at all. The devs just liked her best. Invalid.

Retroactive canon: Katawa Shoujo 2 (IT'S HYPOTHETICAL, DON'T PANIC) picks up with Hisao and Hanako seeing their child off to Yamaku. Hanako's good end in KS becomes true by necessity to maintain continuity. Valid.

Overarching route #1: Katawa Shoujo is explicitly stated from the beginning to be the tale of how Hisao and Lilly became a couple. The devs decide they don't like her later on and declare Shizune's good end the true one despite lack of logic and general continuity failure. Invalid.

Overarching route #2: Katawa Shoujo is explicitly stated from the beginning to be the tale of how Hisao and Lilly became a couple. Lilly's good end is the true end as per this overall story with the rest being "what-if" scenarios. Valid.

Xanatos wrote:Arbitrary bullshit: Emi's good end is the true one. Why? No reason at all. The devs just liked her best. Invalid.

Retroactive canon: Katawa Shoujo 2 (IT'S HYPOTHETICAL, DON'T PANIC) picks up with Hisao and Hanako seeing their child off to Yamaku. Hanako's good end in KS becomes true by necessity to maintain continuity. Valid.

Overarching route #1: Katawa Shoujo is explicitly stated from the beginning to be the tale of how Hisao and Lilly became a couple. The devs decide they don't like her later on and declare Shizune's good end the true one despite lack of logic and general continuity failure. Invalid.

Overarching route #2: Katawa Shoujo is explicitly stated from the beginning to be the tale of how Hisao and Lilly became a couple. Lilly's good end is the true end as per this overall story with the rest being "what-if" scenarios. Valid.

So the only valid reason for a true route in your opinion is if it were planned from the start, was followed through on, and it served the story as a whole? I can get behind that.

Quazzy wrote:I was under the impression that Deardrops and Kira✩Kira were always supposed to have taken place in the same universe, but I could be thinking of some other VNs. Either way, I'll let you know when I finish it so we can discuss.

Please! I'll be sticking around. Also, click on this.

As stated above, this was my biggest problem with Clannad and why I never got to the whole second half of the game which was a continuation of a true route that I hated and couldn't get through.

It sounds like you already know what I'm saying.

However, that being said, how often is it that a VN gets a sequel? It may be just because I'm not incredibly well versed in the medium, but I can only think of like 3 VN series that have sequels. I'd imagine it must be more common than I'm aware of.

Well, you should read KiraKira -Curtain Call- after your done with the original. That's a sequel if I've ever seen one, so given my low experience with VNs, that's why I was assuming that all Fandiscs were sequels.

Flutterz wrote:Which is fair enough, at the end of the day you experience a VN the way you want to, not how others do.

True. In a way, the fact that there are multiple endings in any given VN makes for a much more personal experience than an N.

It seems that most VN sequels are either planned from the start, so they're not really sequels but continuations of the story, fandisks, which give you some or all of the heroine's extended endings or spiritual successors usually set in the same universe, but containing few if any of the same characters or settings. I haven't read any VNs with direct sequels that weren't planned from the start, but I'm sure there are some.

How would you know?

Xanatos wrote:If there's a sequel (continuation), it's handled one of two ways: The previous events are tiptoed around to avoid explicit canon, or a particular route is retroactively made canon to provide a jumping-off point for the sequel. In that case, it's canon. It has to be for the sequel's sake so it gets a pass for actually having a valid reason.

The latter is all I've seen so far! On the one hand, it's great to see beloved characters again, on the other, it's annoying to be offered a variety of snacks and then told that the one I liked was the wrong one and having it ripped out of my mouth.

Xanatos wrote:definitions

Helpful.

When have devs explicitly marked the "true" heroine, though? I've never seen that before.