Katawa Shoujo Forums

centurion911 wrote:The impression I got was that Lilly didn't want to go at all but would never confront her parents about it. If Hisao wanted her to stay she would have, but without him showing it, she had no reason to stay. Hisao may have said "I love you" to her, but he never fought her decision or pressed her to see what was wrong. It was pretty obvious that Lilly never said she actually wanted to go. When asked about it she alluded to Akira and her parents wanting her there but she never said she WANTED to go.

It seems to me like she wanted to be with Hisao and Hanako, she didn't want her life to change. But if there's no reciprocation, why would she stay? Her choice always seemed like one born out of necessity opposed to preference.

I support this theory. It was a good chapter imo.

centurion911 wrote:The impression I got was that Lilly didn't want to go at all but would never confront her parents about it. If Hisao wanted her to stay she would have, but without him showing it, she had no reason to stay. Hisao may have said "I love you" to her, but he never fought her decision or pressed her to see what was wrong. It was pretty obvious that Lilly never said she actually wanted to go. When asked about it she alluded to Akira and her parents wanting her there but she never said she WANTED to go.

It seems to me like she wanted to be with Hisao and Hanako, she didn't want her life to change. But if there's no reciprocation, why would she stay? Her choice always seemed like one born out of necessity opposed to preference.

That's actually really sad when you think about it.

Hanako obviously wanted Lilly to stay, and in some way or another, tried to convince her to, but Hisao didn't do anything to change Lilly's decision. This is one of the many instances where Hisao is a complete dumb ass. If the love of my life was going to leave and travel across half of the world, I'd at least try to talk with her about alternate plans. Fuck it, I would beg her not to leave. I would tell her that I'm lost without her, that my life has no meaning without her. I would try and convince her that she is making a huge mistake and that she is ruining something very special that we both share.

But that's just how I would try and handle the situation.

Oh she did not WANT to go, but after thinking it through she chose to go because she HAD to. And yes it was because of some inaction on Hisao's part, sure, but the way presented here looks too "you did not say stay and that's the whole thing". I see it more complex than that.

Plague wrote:Oh she did not WANT to go, but after thinking it through she chose to go because she HAD to. And yes it was because of some inaction on Hisao's part, sure, but the way presented here looks too "you did not say stay and that's the whole thing". I see it more complex than that.

Well think of it this way. If he didn't ask to stay or give any indication of her to NOT stay, why should she? Hanako's already shown that she doesn't need Lilly to mother her and Lilly doesn't have any more close friends.

Not only did Hisao not ask her to stay, he also didn't give an indication that he even wanted her to. When she told him about the decision, his immediate reaction was "Oh, so you're going" and "This is all very sudden."

Simplicity tends to be best when it works, but its not as simple as "you did not say stay". It's more "When I told you, I was basically pushed out the door by you".

The opening portion, in which Lilly holds Hisao's face but Hisao pushed her hand away, its pretty symbolic in my opinion.

Again, this is my opinion on the events and it is unlikely to change. I have a lot of experience with people who want to maintain a stoic exterior even though their own thoughts are pretty convoluted, and this is the mindset that, I feel, works.

KeiichiO wrote: That's actually really sad when you think about it.

Hanako obviously wanted Lilly to stay, and in some way or another, tried to convince her to, but Hisao didn't do anything to change Lilly's decision. This is one of the many instances where Hisao is a complete dumb ass. If the love of my life was going to leave and travel across half of the world, I'd at least try to talk with her about alternate plans. Fuck it, I would beg her not to leave. I would tell her that I'm lost without her, that my life has no meaning without her. I would try and convince her that she is making a huge mistake and that she is ruining something very special that we both share.

But that's just how I would try and handle the situation.

It is very sad, but the worst part is that I kind of understand where Hisao is coming from. Stopping her from going back to Scotland to see her parents, especially when I know that's a large source of her sadness, is a very daunting mood. If something doesn't work out between you two or she's not happy, it's your fault for making her stay.

Saying nothing is the easy choice, actually asking her to stay is both scary and damn hard to do.

OtakuNinja wrote: I support this theory. It was a good chapter imo.

Thank you

Sometimes it's the little posts like this that keeps a writer motivated. If I'm caught up in my schoolwork this evening, I may be able to post the 2nd and final part of the finale.

Then move on to some epilogues

centurion911 wrote:...

But I'm *not* arguing the point of her not wanting to go I was just saying that the way it has been handled (the internal dialogue, but also talk with Akira etc.) was highly Out Of Character for me. I am thinking that by the time she left the dorms, she was "at peace" with the choice, not literally at peace sure but relatively to what you have in mind.

Plague wrote:

centurion911 wrote:...

But I'm *not* arguing the point of her not wanting to go I was just saying that the way it has been handled (the internal dialogue, but also talk with Akira etc.) was highly Out Of Character for me. I am thinking that by the time she left the dorms, she was "at peace" with the choice, not literally at peace sure but relatively to what you have in mind.

I honestly disagree though. I feel she was never at peace with the decision on the good route.

There is one part in the next section that DOES have your viewpoint, but I don't think she was at peace until after she got to actually tell her feelings to Akira.

Once again, different opinions.

I don't think she was at peace with her decision, but I did get the impression she was resigned to it by the time Hisao and Hanako were seeing her off.

Guest Poster wrote:I don't think she was at peace with her decision, but I did get the impression she was resigned to it by the time Hisao and Hanako were seeing her off.

That's fair I guess.

I guess I'm just a romantic. I would like to think that she would be holding onto the last hope that he would stop her at the end.

centurion911 wrote:

Guest Poster wrote:I don't think she was at peace with her decision, but I did get the impression she was resigned to it by the time Hisao and Hanako were seeing her off.

That's fair I guess.

I guess I'm just a romantic. I would like to think that she would be holding onto the last hope that he would stop her at the end.

Oh I solved that in my mind quite simply: she wants him dearly to stop her till the last minute, but dares not to think about it because it is hurting too much

Plague wrote: Oh I solved that in my mind quite simply: she wants him dearly to stop her till the last minute, but dares not to think about it because it is hurting too much

Well, I very much appreciate the input and am saddened that you do not like my perception of the events, but I am going to keep it as is.

The way it played out so far has made me happy, and in the end that's what matters

centurion911 wrote:Not only did Hisao not ask her to stay, he also didn't give an indication that he even wanted her to. When she told him about the decision, his immediate reaction was "Oh, so you're going" and "This is all very sudden."

Lilly never gave Hisao a single sign that she wanted him to stop her.
She never even told him herself she was leaving, her sister had to take pity on him, and by this time there were only a few days left till her departure. If I was Hisao I'd wonder at this point if she would have phoned in from Scotland instead of telling me in person.
When Lilly learned that Akira told him of her leaving, instead of apologizing she didn't tell him herself, she was mad at Akira for meddling.
She told him she was going to leave and that her decision had been made "for some time." She had already made the decision without even asking for his thoughts or feelings on that matter.

To brush this off with "It was all just a misunderstanding, I thought he didn't love me!" is just cheap.

Mirage_GSM wrote: Lilly never gave Hisao a single sign that she wanted him to stop her.
She never even told him herself she was leaving, her sister had to take pity on him, and by this time there were only a few days left till her departure. If I was Hisao I'd wonder at this point if she would have phoned in from Scotland instead of telling me in person.
When Lilly learned that Akira told him of her leaving, instead of apologizing she didn't tell him herself, she was mad at Akira for meddling.
She told him she was going to leave and that her decision had been made "for some time."

To brush this off with "It was all just a misunderstanding, I thought he didn't love me!" is just cheap.

Lilly's character is one that bottles up emotions and wants others around her to feel nothing but happiness. She put off talking to Hisao for as long as she could because she didn't want to think about hurting him.

I felt that Lilly was held back from telling him because she was afraid it would give him a heart attack, especially after he mentioned the letter.

She never said she was going to leave, it was Hisao that assumed she was leaving.

I don't believe for one second that Lilly is as cold as some people make her out to be, she looks to me like a people pleaser that can't do things for herself. She admits that she's going because Akira is going and her parents are going, she ends up staying because Hisao wants her to stay. Lilly isn't ever one to say what she wants, I believe the only time she really did say what she wanted was during the scene in the wheat field.

Once again, just my opinions. I just think Lilly doesn't speak her mind because she's both been trained not to (all those manners make her quite the actress) and she's a people pleaser

Hey I never thought you would change anything for me, come on, who am I to tell you that I just stated why I liked the PoV parts better.

And to back you up, I too don't think Lilly is so cold as Mirage is portraying her. Although his points are valid, I don't share the conclusion.

centurion911 wrote:She never said she was going to leave, it was Hisao that assumed she was leaving.

Let's see how it goes in the VN:

hi "What did you decide to do in the end?"
li "My family does dearly want me to return to them, and Akira will be going as well. I could still teach as a career, whether it be here or there."

She lists all the reasons in favour of leaving. There is no mention of their relationship even having been an issue in the decision. No "On the one hand this, but on the other hand I do love you and would like to stay with you." or something similar. There is only one way to interpret this and Hisao does so:

hi "So... you're going. How long have you known? I already know you were asked when you first went to Scotland, about a month ago."
li "Some...time."

And Lilly confirms his conclusion. She even admits her decision has been made for some time, possibly even before she confessed to him.

So you're saying that after that she was expecting him to try to make her stay and thought he didn't love her when she didn't.
Lilly has always shown to be very astute when reading people. I can't imagine her reaching a conclusion as stupid as that.

Mirage_GSM wrote:

centurion911 wrote:She never said she was going to leave, it was Hisao that assumed she was leaving.

Let's see how it goes in the VN:

hi "What did you decide to do in the end?"
li "My family does dearly want me to return to them, and Akira will be going as well. I could still teach as a career, whether it be here or there."

She lists all the reasons in favour of leaving. There is no mention of their relationship even having been an issue in the decision. No "On the one hand this, but on the other hand I do love you and would like to stay with you." or something similar. There is only one way to interpret this and Hisao does so:

hi "So... you're going. How long have you known? I already know you were asked when you first went to Scotland, about a month ago."
li "Some...time."

And Lilly confirms his conclusion. She even admits her decision has been made for some time, possibly even before she confessed to him.

So you're saying that after that she was expecting him to try to make her stay and thought he didn't love her when she didn't.
Lilly has always shown to be very astute when reading people. I can't imagine her reaching a conclusion as stupid as that.

Her listing those things doesn't sound like her listing the reasons she's in favor of leaving, it sounds more like her convincing herself that leaving is the correct idea. She doesn't want to leave, it's pretty obvious from the fact that she lists every reason someone else wants her to go.

Hisao comes to the realization that Lilly didn't want to burden him with this knowledge, that she didn't WANT to burden him with the decision. Lilly never said she wanted to stay, Hisao never said he wanted her to stay. Hisao didn't say it because he thinks Lilly is always sure of her decisions, Lilly didn't say it because, now comes the part that is an opinion, she had pressure on one side (from her parents) and no pressure on the other, the people pleaser in her was rationalizing her going. With Hisao's ready acceptance of her leaving she was left with only one choice. She didn't say she didn't want to go because she doesn't want to admit that she doesn't want to go. She wants Hisao to stop her because she doesn't want to rationalize her thoughts, she wants her thinking to coincide with what someone else asks her to do. When this doesn't happen, she's much more prone to going along with the plan than she is to speaking her mind.

Now, Lilly does not seem to be one that is adept at thinking on her feet, she's a planner (evidenced from her panic at each heart attack scene/asking him to not leave in the wheat field/her encounters with Rin). She's also very good at turning a blind eye to things that she doesn't agree with/doesn't want to think about (reasons about parents leaving, her feelings about leaving). These two facts make it easy to pick out her thought process. With Hisao (seemingly) ok with her leaving and pressure from her parents side to leave, the explanation that hurts the least while still allowing her a rationale to leave is that Hisao never truly loved her, so it's okay to let him go. The doubt in her mind is eliminated when Akira reciprocates her feelings.

At the end of the chapter she begins to realize that she never told Hisao she actually wanted to stay. I want Hisao's re-entrance to be as viewpoint changing to her as it was to him. Where Hisao was content to let things happen and never took charge, Lilly never let her true feelings come into play and played ignorant in the face of some very apparent realizations. (As evidenced again in the Hanako bad and good route, where Lilly told Hisao she knew Hanako didn't need to be mothered even though she mothered Hanako for so long)