Katawa Shoujo Forums

ravenlord wrote:

Oddball wrote:

Trying to help depressed people isn't white knighting...

I'm sure Hisao thought the same thing when he visited Hanako after she locked herself in her room on her birthday.

Exactly my point. Thanks

Wasn't your point that Emi and Lilly white knight Hisao? Because that point is still nonsense.

What's the exact difference between helping someone who's in an emotional rut and white knighting? The line is probably difficult to draw exactly.

If the difference lies in the intent behind the actions (good nature vs. trying to compensate for one's own lack of self-worth) then neither Lilly nor Emi white knighted Hisao, because neither have insecurities that could be addressed through white knighting. Lilly isn't insecure to begin with and while Emi does have insecurities, they're not really related to her sense of self-worth.

If the difference lies in tone (genuinely helpful vs. patronizing) then your mileage probably varies. Both Emi and Lilly mother Hisao, particularly in the beginning. Emi's the more aggressive mother in the first week...especially at the festival where she does the eat-your-damn-veggies routine. Lilly's the more subdued one, but due to the Miss Perfect thing she has going and the fact she hardly ever shows her more vulnerable side, it's easy to feel like she's always one rung above you on the ladder. But still, neither is trying to prove something to themselves by helping Hisao.

Guest Poster wrote:What's the exact difference between helping someone who's in an emotional rut and white knighting? The line is probably difficult to draw exactly.

If the difference lies in the intent behind the actions (good nature vs. trying to compensate for one's own lack of self-worth) then neither Lilly nor Emi white knighted Hisao, because neither have insecurities that could be addressed through white knighting. Lilly isn't insecure to begin with and while Emi does have insecurities, they're not really related to her sense of self-worth.

If the difference lies in tone (genuinely helpful vs. patronizing) then your mileage probably varies. Both Emi and Lilly mother Hisao, particularly in the beginning. Emi's the more aggressive mother in the first week...especially at the festival where she does the eat-your-damn-veggies routine. Lilly's the more subdued one, but due to the Miss Perfect thing she has going and the fact she hardly ever shows her more vulnerable side, it's easy to feel like she's always one rung above you on the ladder. But still, neither is trying to prove something to themselves by helping Hisao.

Emi: Badgers Hisao now and then to be more healthy. Meh. Hardly a knight.

Lilly: ...Doesn't really do much. If anything, Hisao clings to her as a support and she just goes along for the ride. Some white knight, eh?

Hisao: Relentlessly hounds the girls with attempts to "fix" them despite their own wishes, common sense, consideration of whether or not his "help" is even really help at all, and no sense of when to shut his trap and let things be. It's almost like he does it not because he wants THEM to be happy but because "fixing" them will make HIM happy and god dammit, they're going to be fixed whether they want (or necessarily need) it or not because HE wants them fixed. And they'll be fixed HIS way on HIS schedule because fuck them, it's about HIM. The line is one of selfishness.

A reasonable person, in Hanako's end, would have left her be to settle her own troubles at her own pace (though maybe check on her sometimes, as in the good end). A white knight (bad end) would barge in against her will and DEMAND to know what's wrong and DEMAND she get over it and come out. Never mind giving her time alone, FUCK that, he wants her better NOW. Screw letting her have some privacy like she ASKS him to do, screw giving her time to handle her own issues, screw letting her heal at her own pace. Hisao's here, motherfucker, and that bitch best run on his schedule.

A white knight, put simply, is where the "concerned friend" becomes "the obsessive pain in the ass".

Xanatos wrote:Hisao: Relentlessly hounds the girls with attempts to "fix" them despite their own wishes, common sense, consideration of whether or not his "help" is even really help at all, and no sense of when to shut his trap and let things be. It's almost like he does it not because he wants THEM to be happy but because "fixing" them will make HIM happy and god dammit, they're going to be fixed whether they want (or necessarily need) it or not because HE wants them fixed. And they'll be fixed HIS way on HIS schedule because fuck them, it's about HIM. The line is one of selfishness.

A white knight, put simply, is where the "concerned friend" becomes "the obsessive pain in the ass".

Still haven't played the Lilly route, just to be clear. That aside, don't know if i'm stating the obvious but it might be worth noting that, in Hanako and Emi's routes at least, Hisao is utterly convinced that he is doing the best for them. His actions in Hanako's bad end aren't very defensible, but aside from that, i never really had the impression he was trying to help them more for his benefit than theirs. Sure, he is kind of avoiding his past with his coddling of Hanako, but he also believes that catering to Hanako would be the best for her/what would make her happy, he is convinced that if he doesn't break Emi's self-imposed barrier she will likely live a very unfulfilling life (and i think he's kind of right in that one). In all the routes (that i've played at least) Hisao honestly cares about the girls, he might commit unwise decisions regarding how to go about helping them, but he always does it with the best of intentions. What i meant to say is, while Hisao does sometimes fucks up the "help" he wants to give, he's nowhere near as bad as you seem to be making him out to be in there, nor do i believe any of the Hisaos is a selfish character (Except maybe the Hisao in Rin's route).

EDIT: Just to comment, i think what Guest Poster wrote above is probably a better worded version of the idea i was trying to get accross.

Dream wrote:

Xanatos wrote:Hisao: Relentlessly hounds the girls with attempts to "fix" them despite their own wishes, common sense, consideration of whether or not his "help" is even really help at all, and no sense of when to shut his trap and let things be. It's almost like he does it not because he wants THEM to be happy but because "fixing" them will make HIM happy and god dammit, they're going to be fixed whether they want (or necessarily need) it or not because HE wants them fixed. And they'll be fixed HIS way on HIS schedule because fuck them, it's about HIM. The line is one of selfishness.

A white knight, put simply, is where the "concerned friend" becomes "the obsessive pain in the ass".

Still haven't played the Lilly route, just to be clear. That aside, don't know if i'm stating the obvious but it might be worth noting that, in Hanako and Emi's routes at least, Hisao is utterly convinced that he is doing the best for them. His actions in Hanako's bad end aren't very defensible, but aside from that, i never really had the impression he was trying to help them more for his benefit than theirs. Sure, he is kind of avoiding his past with his coddling of Hanako, but he also believes that catering to Hanako would be the best for her/what would make her happy, he is convinced that if he doesn't break Emi's self-imposed barrier she will likely live a very unfulfilling life (and i think he's kind of right in that one). In all the routes (that i've played at least) Hisao honestly cares about the girls, he might commit unwise decisions regarding how to go about helping them, but he always does it with the best of intentions. What i meant to say is, while Hisao does sometimes fucks up the "help" he wants to give, he's nowhere near as bad as you seem to be making him out to be in there, nor do i believe any of the Hisaos is a selfish character (Except maybe the Hisao in Rin's route).

EDIT: Just to comment, i think what Guest Poster wrote above is probably a better worded version of the idea i was trying to get accross.

I actually agree with this.
You would think that someone who would be "white-knighting" would have some sort of grandiose fantasy in their head of being able to fix everything instantly, but we never see that from Hisao necessarily. He helps the girls not because he needs to fulfill some of his own desires, but because he is genuinely concerned about their well-being, not to mention that any relationship wouldn't work with the barriers that were established between Hisao and the girls, so he would need to break it down. (Such as Rin, on her own little planet, Hanako, who is extremely shy, Lily, who is so aloof, Shiziune, who hides her own regret behind Misha and her studen council duties, and Emi, who pushes people away because she doesn't want to lose them.)

Dream wrote:he might commit unwise decisions regarding how to go about helping them, but he always does it with the best of intentions.

Well, that's the other possibility: He's just kind of an idiot. Doesn't make him any less a white knight, just a better motive.

Shadowyeclipse wrote:

Albert Wesker wrote:

Scotland, not Ireland. And while it's a big deal in her route, Lilly's departure for Scotland is barely mentioned in Hanako's route, and I'm pretty sure once she left, she never came back (which is to say, they forgot to mention it or the rest of the events happened during the two weeks).

I probably would have white-knighted Hanako. I'm an incredibly protective guy. But I had to trust Lilly's judgement (which was easier after falling head-over-heels for her as my first playthrough) and, as I've run the gamut with depression myself, I can understand the value of not just sheltering yourself from the world.

I'd love to cut myself off from most of the world, but it doesn't bloody work that way. You can't keep out everything you hate and let in everything you love. That kind of a barrier just never works, and even then, rare is the situation where one can maintain that sort of a selective seclusion from the world.

I really need to give Lilly route a try.
thanks a lot for the info, bro.

Her route is pretty amazing, and I have to say as a route, it surpasses all of the others. Hanako might be my favorite character, but Lily's route is really, really heartwarming.
Give it a try.

If by "really, really heartwarming" you mean "holy shit I cried a half dozen seperate times" then I'd agree with this statement.
Also, I have to say this gets to me; Lilly's name is spelled with a total of three "L"s, not two. I think the reason some people screw this up is because, with a bunch of Japanese names, Lilly's is the odd-one-out and has a double consonant. Also, I have no problem informing you, but if I were you and hadn't played Lilly's route, I'd be a lot more careful. I have a thing about hating spoilers.

Albert Wesker wrote:I just finished hanako route with the good ending...
Oh god.
The feels.

SPOILERS:
"The last of the floodgates breaks, the sound of her crying permeating the air as her body jerks against mine. We hold each other tightly, connected more closely than ever in our shared grief, and our shared happiness."

I'm not gonna lie, i cried, a cried like a bitch.

Also... did Hisao rape Hanako? i don't think he did, i'm almost sure there was a thread about that, care to provide the source?
End of spoilers.

I don't think it counts as rape whatsoever. It's pretty clear that Hanako was consentful - it was practically her idea (which she admits to later in the story) - and while I've yet to actually see their intimate scene through, Hisao makes a mental comment in the morning about the condom wrapper, among other things, being picked up off the floor. That doesn't strike me as something either Hisao or Hanako would just happen to have, showing the whole ordeal was premeditated. I'm nonetheless uncomfortable with the encounter, but that's a combination of having a preference for scenarios where the female leads, Hanako being a pretty timid individual, and me always being wary of if I'm being percieved as pushy (due to my large and sometimes intimidating stature but almost-always good intentions).

Also, I didn't cry, but that scene was touching as all hell.

And lastly, after reading all the debate about white-knighting, I've misunderstood the phrase. Am I protective? Yes. Would I white-knight? I've had enough of my own emotional problems to know that's never helpful.

FoxtrotZero wrote: I don't think it counts as rape whatsoever. It's pretty clear that Hanako was consentful - it was practically her idea (which she admits to later in the story) - and while I've yet to actually see their intimate scene through, Hisao makes a mental comment in the morning about the condom wrapper, among other things, being picked up off the floor. That doesn't strike me as something either Hisao or Hanako would just happen to have, showing the whole ordeal was premeditated. I'm nonetheless uncomfortable with the encounter, but that's a combination of having a preference for scenarios where the female leads, Hanako being a pretty timid individual, and me always being wary of if I'm being percieved as pushy (due to my large and sometimes intimidating stature but almost-always good intentions).

Also, I didn't cry, but that scene was touching as all hell.

And lastly, after reading all the debate about white-knighting, I've misunderstood the phrase. Am I protective? Yes. Would I white-knight? I've had enough of my own emotional problems to know that's never helpful.

I couldn't agree more with you bro, and also, i posted an image which explains why didn't Hisao Raped Hanako, i think i just didn't pay too much attention on that scene, it was somehow late. And i started Lilly route yesterday, i really wanna finish it soon because i have shiton of tests coming, but i neither wanna push it too much, because it would feel like i'm not enjoying it.

Tomate wrote:

Albert Wesker wrote:Well, after reading some replies i think i was indeed wrong, however, this explains it. If someone still has doubts.



Spoilers of hanako route below.

The attachment Hanako+wanted+to+sleep+with+Hisao+because+she+thought+that+s+_59f39881d57b24f0d5d2a24f904e1be9.png is no longer available

That image won the forum, we should shut it down, there's nothing left to discuss here.

i'm glad i could make you laugh .

Albert Wesker wrote:

Tomate wrote:

Albert Wesker wrote:Well, after reading some replies i think i was indeed wrong, however, this explains it. If someone still has doubts.



Spoilers of hanako route below.

Hanako+wanted+to+sleep+with+Hisao+because+she+thought+that+s+_59f39881d57b24f0d5d2a24f904e1be9.png

That image won the forum, we should shut it down, there's nothing left to discuss here.

e31.jpg

i'm glad i could make you laugh .

The laughter. It hurts my sides.
I exaggerate, but that got an audible chuckle, which is pretty good for me.

Also, Lilly's route will throw you for a loop if you're anything like me, and then you really shouldn't be doing it right before any sort of major test. Because, again, like me, you'll get distracted a lot.

FoxtrotZero wrote:Also, Lilly's route will throw you for a loop if you're anything like me, and then you really shouldn't be doing it right before any sort of major test. Because, again, like me, you'll get distracted a lot.

I did her bad end some hours before a history test. It didn't end well. The fact that I had a Lilly look-a-like sitting next to me didn't help.

But I blame the teacher!

OtakuNinja wrote:The fact that I had a Lilly look-a-like sitting next to me didn't help.

Where do you live and what direction is it? I'll bring cookies!~

Xanatos wrote:

OtakuNinja wrote:The fact that I had a Lilly look-a-like sitting next to me didn't help.

Where do you live and what direction is it? I'll bring cookies!~

There's a girl that I'm almost convinced could be my personal Hanako. I tried to talk to her on thursday, and I was even more of an awkward mess than usual.
I am 5'11" and 270 pounds. I am a human tank, and I was stuttering like... well, like Hanako, I guess. Not that I ever expect romantic involvement with her, I seem to have not made a complete fool of myself.

FoxtrotZero wrote:

Xanatos wrote:

OtakuNinja wrote:The fact that I had a Lilly look-a-like sitting next to me didn't help.

Where do you live and what direction is it? I'll bring cookies!~

There's a girl that I'm almost convinced could be my personal Hanako. I tried to talk to her on thursday, and I was even more of an awkward mess than usual.
I am 5'11" and 270 pounds. I am a human tank, and I was stuttering like... well, like Hanako, I guess. Not that I ever expect romantic involvement with her, I seem to have not made a complete fool of myself.

I used to be a human tank like you.

Until I took a feels to the heart.



But in all honesty, don't look at her as Hanako. Look at her as HER. There's a time and place for Katawa Shoujo, putting a fake waifu in place of a real waifu is not one.
Analyzing a relationship using morals and lessons from the game is possibly a time for Katawa Shoujo, though.

Shadowyeclipse wrote:I used to be a human tank like you.

Until I took a feels to the heart.



But in all honesty, don't look at her as Hanako. Look at her as HER. There's a time and place for Katawa Shoujo, putting a fake waifu in place of a real waifu is not one.
Analyzing a relationship using morals and lessons from the game is possibly a time for Katawa Shoujo, though.

I don't think he meant it quite as literally as that...

5'3 over here. Maybe taller now, last measured a couple years ago. Haven't weighed myself since '99 but I'm overweight.