Katawa Shoujo Forums

Chalk me up for the "use other characters as support" team. I'll also add that, since it's your story, does it really matter whether other character's flags are hit? You can decide what happens, 'flags' be damned.

Thanatos02 wrote:“Kenji Setou, resident of Johto Prefecture, Tamriel? Phone number 999-999-9999?” she asks, giving me a disappointed glare.

I had to pause for a good five minutes before I could finish this chapter. I have no idea why I found that so funny.
Looking forward to more Akira. I understand you've made some changes to the story so next week I'll go back and read everything again. I really do like this though.

Bagheera wrote: And, as you said, using the two for support might help -- if Hisao inquired about Akira from Lilly, pumping her for information, that in itself might be an Akira flag. Better to use the characters to your advantage than to avoid them IMO.

I actually went back and realized just how sparse the interaction between them and Hisao is, so I'm going to try to lengthen it. Thanks for the input.

Silentcook wrote:I'll start by saying that I'd rather have a few chance meetings instead of some contrived, out-of-character "reason" for them to get together. This is a problem one faces when attempting to mesh two characters who were not originally meant to go together. So your take is All Right, and I am Okay With It. Just to be clear.

You don't know how much relief this brings to me. I've been bashing my skull into the keyboard and other various surfaces just trying to think of ways it would work that wouldn't be some sort of deus ex machina, and have come up short every time.

Silentcook wrote:That said, the editor in me wonders about the validity of your statement. If you turn a supporting character into a main character, you are by default putting all of the main cast into supporting roles. So why not use them to provide support?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "tripping some kind of Lilly or Hanako flags", but if you think you need to cut them from the limelight in order to justify Hisao and Akira getting together, I think you're mistaken. On the contrary, it seems unreasonable for Hisao not to go to his most convenient sources to get info... and I don't think that there's much of a chance of "tripping" any girl's "flags" when you ask her about her sister.

Nevertheless, plan execution and delivery can trump pretty much anything I said, especially considering that I'm speculating without having access to your plot, so I think I'll shut up now.

Catgirl Kleptocracy wrote:Chalk me up for the "use other characters as support" team. I'll also add that, since it's your story, does it really matter whether other character's flags are hit? You can decide what happens, 'flags' be damned.

I understand what y'all mean, and I'm beginning to understand how stupid I'm sure I sounded when I said something like that. I think I just worded it wrong, because I'm not worried about something catapulting Hisao into an after-the-fact Hanako/Lilly route, I'm worried about somehow turning them into information machines, and then tripping up and having them say something they shouldn't know. Or somehow turning it into a 'tea room - Akira - tea room - Akira' fic where nothing else happens. I'm doing a metric ____-ton of editing on 2-5, 2-6, and 2-7 to try and fix everything up and make it more sensible. Things aren't meshing together very well yet, going by a lot of the input I'm getting. It's becoming a real pain doing all these edits, so hopefully I'll get it right (or at least better) with this next pass. After this; no more editing on act 2. I'm running with it.

On a side-note, I understand how frustrating it is to bear with me when it comes to all these edits. Hopefully in the future everything will be more concrete, so you don't have to re-read the same section 15 times because I got all wishy-washy every 30 minutes for that part.

nemz wrote:

Mirage_GSM wrote:There is such a thing as "not romantically interested". You can hang around girls constantly without "triggering any flags" at all. Been there done that

Sure, but in this case we know that these girls ARE interested, or at least are predisposed to being interested if he gives them a chance to get to know him. That said, If he's chasing Akira then Lilly and Hanako are not likely to interfere. In fact, they're likely to meddle and scheme to make it happen.

Something like "flagging" is no concern at all when you are writing a story.
If you are reading a VN, you may think Oh, I better not hang out with Girl A too much, because I want to get on Girl B's path, but here you are writing the story yourself. You decide that Hisao is not interested in either Hanako or Lilly but in Akira, and the story has no way of forcing you onto either of their routes.

Let me toss a few things out at you and see if anything inspires you.

You're worried about him just asking Lilly and Hanako questions about Akira if they hang out together? So, give them something else to do or talk about it. Lilly did say that Hisao was better at math and science than her. Maybe she could use a bit of tutoring... or maybe vice-versa, as he sucks at English.

You don't want him too friendly with Lilly but still want to know more about Akira? Well, Akira does have another relative at the school. You'd might have to introduce Hideaki before the connection became apparent though.

Also, there's Mutou. Mutou and Hisao seem to have connected more in this story than the game, so there might be something to work with there. Maybe he knows Akira himself. Maybe he's friends with some people that work Research and Development in the company she works in. Hell, maybe Mutou's best friend in the whole world is Akira's boyfriend. If nothing else, he's probably at least met her, with her being Lilly's parental figure and he being the science t4eacher for her year (perhaps the previous years as well.)

Or combine ideas. Lilly has uncharacteristically flunked a science test for whatever reason and has been doing poorly in class, so Mutou calls Akira in and they end up deciding she could use a tutor. Mutou suggests his prize science student. Guess who that is? (Hint: It's probably not Miki.)

Yeah, it might be a bit of a coincidence, but you don't seem to have any problem with those so far.

Alright, a couple of updates to the route.
First I'll start by saying that this is the last round of edits I'm making to the route. If there's still any issues, they're going to be resolved down the line, or they're going to haunt me in my sleep -- either way, I'm not making any more adjustments to part 2-1 through 2-7, because I know how infuriating it must be for anyone who read through at the beginning, and then has to go through again and again because I can't stand by what I write. Because this is an ongoing thing, I'm thinking of putting my foot down and stopping the editing entirely, except for typos or badly phrased statements, because this method is rather unfriendly to those who keep up with it. The good news to this is that if anyone hasn't started yet; NOW'S THE BEST TIME, BECAUSE IT'S SOLID!

Now I'll go over the changes:
First and foremost - I've added 'choices', something that should have been in from the get-go, honestly. I plan to write a neutral/bad end later on down the line, with some information on what choices you'd have to take to get to them. I'm not planning on writing alternate paths, however; you'll just have to derive how the other options lead you to that ending for yourself.

Second are the changes to 2-5. It's pretty meta, but let's hypothesize that Akira originally planned to break up with her boyfriend, but worked to stay together with him upon seeing Lilly's successful relationship in her route. This means that Lilly's is the only universe where Akira and her boyfriend stay together until she gets called back to Scotland. Now, Hisao convinces Akira to try and work it out with him, which is going to lead to a main story point in act 3.

Third are the changes to 2-6. Hisao makes the choice to keep asking about Akira, and their conversation is expanded. Everything else is the same. When I tried to go back and apply the same thing to 2-2, there wasn't much room to add in. Lilly and Akira are still going back to Scotland for a week, so there's going to be plenty of time for Hanako to solidify her position in the story. I'll also take this time to mention that what I said about tripping up and putting Hisao on different routes was quite a stupid thing to say in retrospect.

Last is the change to 2-7. Akira does NOT go splitsville with her boyfriend, instead they take a break for a while to try and sort things out. She's still skeptical about staying together with him, but she's giving it another chance for the time being. This decision is going to shape both Akira's and Hisao's characters throughout act 3, and give way to one of the major themes of the story. This was a plot point I was going to address in acts 3 and 4 anyway, but apparently everyone interpreted it as me just getting rid of him for good and that it was all poorly thought out and what have you, so hopefully this is a little more coherent.

I'm really thankful for all the critique I've been getting, even if I didn't like that someone thought it was terrible and poorly planned. Other than that, I'm done for the night. I'm working on 2-8 and it should be out by the end of the week. Let me just reiterate that this is the last bout of major editing/flip-flopping.

Sort of intrigued to see how these changes work out. Obviously with all of the other pseudo route characters, nobody has had to side step an already established relationship and put it into a reasonable context. That being said, I'm interested in seeing how they actually (and imminently) manage to get together in the end.

Keep up the good work.

This was good reading. Only one thing was jarring - Hisao not using most obvious means to contact Akira again - through Lilly. No more implausubly contrived accidental meetings.

I'm going to tell you right now that I don't like choices in stories. It's a story, not a VN. But it's your story, not mine. I'll enjoy reading it anyway.

I do hope you take Silentcook and Mirage's advice about using the girls as supporting characters and don't worry about 'flags'.

I know you said parts 1–7 are in stone now but…

Act 2, 5-1, Hisao is annoyed about how Kenji's milk has been in the fridge all this time, and then he says that he didn't have a chance to get to the store because of being sidetracked by meeting Akira.

Actually, that brings an odd point up. When Hisao finally does make it to the store, Kenji is there as well. I think because of other changes you made, these parts got kinda jumbled up and now don't fit in. I seem to recall it making sense the first time I read through it.

Mirage_GSM wrote:

My watch says that it is seven o’ clock sharp,
...
The sun begins to set in the distance,

Very minor thing: At 7pm it's probably almost completely dark at that time of year.

Huh? Even without DST, sundown shouldn't come before 8 in June/July.

Mader Levap wrote:This was good reading. Only one thing was jarring - Hisao not using most obvious means to contact Akira again - through Lilly. No more implausubly contrived accidental meetings.

I had a plan for this originally, but then I went full-retard during the writing of 2-6 and wound up not using it. At the time I thought Lilly would have gotten leery or suspicious of such a thing, but now that I'm actually looking at it from other points of view, it makes sense for Hisao to say something like "I'd like to meet her sometime" and Lilly offering to formally introduce them.

It's like when you get into a major argument with someone and then spending the next week brooding over it, thinking of all the things you COULD have said or COULD have done. I understand that the 'random encounters' thing is a pain in the ass; I understand that it feels contrived, and stupid, and lazy, and unplanned. I've heard it a dozen times now. I'm not angry with anyone here for pointing it out, because it is a blaring flaw; I'm just pissed at myself for falling into such a gaping hole and writing myself into a corner like that. I've met the same person four times in a row at practically random locations, which is why it didn't feel so ridiculous when I was planning it. But no one else seems to share that experience so I wind up with this big, practically unfixable mess.

Hopefully a more competent writer (like Akira, for instance) will come along and give their own take on it so my clusterfuck isn't the only option for all the Akirabros here. That's not to say I'm going to give up though; I'm an amateur writer, yeah, but I'm not going to duck out just because I'm getting unfavorable responses.

griffon8 wrote:I know you said parts 1–7 are in stone now but…

Act 2, 5-1, Hisao is annoyed about how Kenji's milk has been in the fridge all this time, and then he says that he didn't have a chance to get to the store because of being sidetracked by meeting Akira.

Actually, that brings an odd point up. When Hisao finally does make it to the store, Kenji is there as well. I think because of other changes you made, these parts got kinda jumbled up and now don't fit in. I seem to recall it making sense the first time I read through it.

See, plot hole! And it's only act 2!
I don't think I'd have a problem with going back and changing minor things like that. All I'd have to do is remove the lines about his milk being in the fridge and mention Kenji buying it when Hisao sees him at the grocery store -- also have Hisao call Kenji out on it during their conversation in 2-6. I'll feel like a hypocrite for it, but Kenji's milk doesn't exactly have a huge impact on the story, so there shouldn't be any issues with a minor edit like that.

Thanatos02 wrote:I'll feel like a hypocrite for it, but Kenji's milk doesn't exactly have a huge impact on the story, so there shouldn't be any issues with a minor edit like that.

As long as it doesn't turn out to be a Chekhov's Gun.

griffon8 wrote:

Thanatos02 wrote:I'll feel like a hypocrite for it, but Kenji's milk doesn't exactly have a huge impact on the story, so there shouldn't be any issues with a minor edit like that.

As long as it doesn't turn out to be a Chekhov's Gun.

"Hisao, dude, what the hell are you talking about? There's no milk in the fridge downstairs. I checked this morning."

Cue reality peeling apart, Hisao wakes up in the hospital, everything was just a dream. The rest of the story is a psychological sci-fi where Hisao wanders through the IC ward desperately trying to recall fractions of the dream he saw, all while seeing phantasms of the girls in operating rooms.

Thanatos02 wrote:Cue reality peeling apart, Hisao wakes up in the hospital, everything was just a dream. The rest of the story is a psychological sci-fi where Hisao wanders through the IC ward desperately trying to recall fractions of the dream he saw, all while seeing phantasms of the girls in operating rooms.

Now THAT'S a cop-out.

Just a few opinions I'd like to share, after catching up with the story.

Get rid of the choices. Instead of "

'I don't know...'
[Comfort her]
[Don't comfort her]

I decide to comfort Misha"

Just get rid of the brackets. Or, if you are really hell bent on using the brackets, check out Rikabro's Rika route. Notice how he introduces choices only twice. And those are both for bad/neutral ends. And he actually writes the different choices. If you aren't going to full out write out every choice, don't use them. Or maybe, keep it straightforward until the end, where there is a possibility for bad/good endings, in which case you can write both.


Also, loving Silentcook's flip-flop idea of Supporting and Main character roles. You should definitely roll with this.

As for random encounters, I hadn't really paid much heed to it until others started complaining. I was just enjoying the story. You portray Akira very well in my opinion, allowing me to physically smile uncontrollably from certain lines. This is what good writing is about for me, from a reader's standpoint at least.

But if you truly don't like the random encounters (Which seems like many others don't as well) just listen to Mirage?'s ideas/suggestions.

Looking forward to 2-8! Thanks for releasing these so quickly!

Po1ntBlank wrote:Just a few opinions I'd like to share, after catching up with the story.

Get rid of the choices. Instead of "

'I don't know...'
[Comfort her]
[Don't comfort her]

I decide to comfort Misha"

Just get rid of the brackets. Or, if you are really hell bent on using the brackets, check out Rikabro's Rika route. Notice how he introduces choices only twice. And those are both for bad/neutral ends. And he actually writes the different choices. If you aren't going to full out write out every choice, don't use them. Or maybe, keep it straightforward until the end, where there is a possibility for bad/good endings, in which case you can write both.

Also, loving Silentcook's flip-flop idea of Supporting and Main character roles. You should definitely roll with this.

As for random encounters, I hadn't really paid much heed to it until others started complaining. I was just enjoying the story. You portray Akira very well in my opinion, allowing me to physically smile uncontrollably from certain lines. This is what good writing is about for me, from a reader's standpoint at least.

But if you truly don't like the random encounters (Which seems like many others don't as well) just listen to Mirage?'s ideas/suggestions.

Looking forward to 2-8! Thanks for releasing these so quickly!

I'm not using the choices so much as an emulation of the VN style as I'm trying to give a tiny bit more development. I think displaying the possibilities for the things that could have been said gives a bit more insight into how Hisao makes a stupid decision, gets lucky, does something for the wrong reason, etc. I'm not planning to go overboard with them; the two choices that are in now are likely to be the only ones for a long while. I've actually got one in 2-8, but it's purely for comedy, which I don't think there'd be a (major) problem with. There will be bad/neutral ends down the line, which is why I put them in in the first place.

As for role-flipping, that's what I've got planned. I'm not going to go back and rewrite anything act 2 again, so I'm going to use Act 3 to right all the things I shoulda/coulda/woulda done provided I had more foresight. The 1-week trip to Scotland doesn't just magically disappear, so as I've said, Hanako will have plenty of time to solidify her role. Lilly is also going to be very important once the pair gets back. Mutou is also going to play a minor role in steering/influencing Hisao's character, so 2-4 is going to act as a sort of foreshadowing for later on.

As for the random encounters; I'm noticing a difference between the people who are most/least bothered by it, and I think the main factor here is 'suspension of disbelief'. This is a generalization and completely baseless speculation, but I'm thinking all of the folks that are least bothered by it are the ones that have followed me or one of the other "crazy" writers before, and are used to some of the *ahem* improbable situations I've sometimes placed the characters in. The ones who are most bugged by it are new to my work, and are no doubt used to some of the more sensible stuff that happens on this board (and not where I'm from, believe me.)
I'm still ticked off about writing myself into a corner with them. It's going to haunt me until I grow old and either die or forget I ever wrote this (likely the former), but I'm moving on. Perfection, as noble a goal it may be, is just not within my grasp at this skill level, so I'm just going to put all my effort into Act 3 and hope that blows everyone away enough to be forgiven for the random encounters nonsense.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm glad you're enjoying the route so far!