Katawa Shoujo Forums

I really did want to have a good ending without consulting a flow chart

Honestly, it's not that hard to get a girl's good ending in KS. IMHO, the game does a fine job of emphasizing the keystones of healthy relationships. If you understand how relationships - and people - work and have a reasonable amount of empathy, the right choices are fairly obvious - they're the ones that don't involve acting like a moody, pretentious jerk.

WARNING: Incoming wall of text!
Major spoilers, too.

Shizune: Communication. A relationship can't even begin unless you and your partner know each other's hearts, and that can only happen if you share what's on your minds. If something's bothering you, talk about it. If everything is right with the world, talk about it. If you're happy or sad or angry or scared, talk about it. You can't address problems if you don't know something's wrong, and a problem that isn't dealt with is a problem that will possibly fester and grow into a relationship-destroying catastrophe. Keep the lines of communication open to nip potential issues in the bud - and if there *are* no issues, just tell your SO how much you love them. That never hurts.

Also, don't cheat on your partner.

Case study: Misha is hiding her true feelings about her dysfunctional relationship with Shizune, both from Shizune and from herself. Hisao must help her release and address these feelings; they will gradually weaken and destroy the trio's relationships with each other if left buried.

-----

Lilly: Trust. Let your special someone into your heart, completely and totally. Don't hide things from them, even if you think it's for the best, because that undermines their ability to trust you. Be honest about your feelings at all times.

Case study: Lilly is blind. She cannot percieve that which would be obvious to most others - and thus has great potential to be mislead and lied to. Hisao must tell her his feelings and not lie to her - even when it would be really easy to get away with - in order to build and keep her trust in him.

-----

Rin: Understanding. Learn how to listen to your special someone - both directly, and through their less overt cues. Understand what it is that they really want, even if you don't understand the how or why of their actions, and help them find their path to happiness.

Case study: Rin is...odd. Although her behavior as an individual may be off-kilter, her feelings are not - her basic motivations are no different from the rest of us despite her unusual quirks. Hisao must learn to see past her erratic surface behavior and understand what truly drives her - even if Rin herself doesn't know for certain.

-----

Hanako: Respect. Your partner is not your pet. Don't presume things on their account. Don't act *for* a person; act *with* them. Respect their choices, and don't attempt to interfere based on what you think 'should' be. Let them take the lead in their own affairs, but be willing to step in and selflessly offer help if and when they ask for it. Know the difference between being someone's crutch, and being there to help them up when they fall.

Case study: Hanako has an inferiority complex. While the reflexive urge to assuage her fears and coddle her is understandable, this is not what she needs, nor what she wants. Hisao must realize that only Hanako knows what's best for Hanako - that the best way to help Hanako, is to help her help herself.

-----

Emi: Determination. There *will* be bumps in the road along the way, and that's 100% normal. Don't blow things out of proportion; accept that conflict will arise, and do what it takes to resolve it. Make compromises if you need to. Don't give up; put forth the effort to fight for a good thing.

Case study: Emi is emotionally distant - deep down, she *wants* to love, but her fear of loss keeps causing her to subconciously push others away. She cannot seem to stop this on her own, so Hisao must compensate by simply refusing to *be* pushed away - to stand there and weather the storm, until Emi is ready to accept both his presence and her own feelings.

-----

Manly Picnic: Responsiveness.Kind of a no-brainer, but it still needs to be said. Love doesn't just happen - you do have to make the effort. Relationships don't just fall into your lap - you have to recognize the opportunity and act to sieze it. Is there a guy or girl you like? Tell them - ask them out on a date. Is there someone who's been spending time with you - making the effort to get to know you, perhaps hinting at something more? Don't sit there and wonder - ask them how they feel. Did a cute girl crash into you and almost give you a heart attack? It's the perfect icebreaker - take the opportunity to strike up a conversation. Under *no* circumstances play hard to get - make yourself available, and if someone takes the bait, do your damndest to reel them in.

Don't act all emo and wallow in self-pity - find something that makes you happy, and let that happiness infect others like a bad social disease. You don't have to be the most confident guy in the world to appeal to others - heck, some folks *prefer* shy types like us - but you *do* have to have a positive mindset. Nobody wants to be around a Gloomy Gus, because all they can see is the bad - the negative. Show the world your positive side - and if a bunch of cute girls try to drag you out of your shell, for God's sake, let them.

-----

As far as I can tell, all of the bad endings in KS ultimately result from being an insensitive, obstinate blockhead. If you really pay attention to the girls' feelings and have some common sense regarding relationships (see the above guidelines), the bad choices are usually fairly obvious.



...wow this turned into a bit of an essay, didn't it? Sorry, I tend to pontificate sometimes on matters that mean a lot to me, and matters of the heart are high on that list.

DrNonookee wrote:

I really did want to have a good ending without consulting a flow chart

Honestly, it's not that hard to get a girl's good ending in KS. IMHO, the game does a fine job of emphasizing the keystones of healthy relationships. If you understand how relationships - and people - work and have a reasonable amount of empathy, the right choices are fairly obvious - they're the ones that don't involve acting like a moody, pretentious jerk.

WARNING: Incoming wall of text!
Major spoilers, too.

Shizune: Communication. A relationship can't even begin unless you and your partner know each other's hearts, and that can only happen if you share what's on your minds. If something's bothering you, talk about it. If everything is right with the world, talk about it. If you're happy or sad or angry or scared, talk about it. You can't address problems if you don't know something's wrong, and a problem that isn't dealt with is a problem that will possibly fester and grow into a relationship-destroying catastrophe. Keep the lines of communication open to nip potential issues in the bud - and if there *are* no issues, just tell your SO how much you love them. That never hurts.

Also, don't cheat on your partner.

Case study: Misha is hiding her true feelings about her dysfunctional relationship with Shizune, both from Shizune and from herself. Hisao must help her release and address these feelings; they will gradually weaken and destroy the trio's relationships with each other if left buried.

-----

Lilly: Trust. Let your special someone into your heart, completely and totally. Don't hide things from them, even if you think it's for the best, because that undermines their ability to trust you. Be honest about your feelings at all times.

Case study: Lilly is blind. She cannot percieve that which would be obvious to most others - and thus has great potential to be mislead and lied to. Hisao must tell her his feelings and not lie to her - even when it would be really easy to get away with - in order to build and keep her trust in him.

-----

Rin: Understanding. Learn how to listen to your special someone - both directly, and through their less overt cues. Understand what it is that they really want, even if you don't understand the how or why of their actions, and help them find their path to happiness.

Case study: Rin is...odd. Although her behavior as an individual may be off-kilter, her feelings are not - her basic motivations are no different from the rest of us despite her unusual quirks. Hisao must learn to see past her erratic surface behavior and understand what truly drives her - even if Rin herself doesn't know for certain.

-----

Hanako: Respect. Your partner is not your pet. Don't presume things on their account. Don't act *for* a person; act *with* them. Respect their choices, and don't attempt to interfere based on what you think 'should' be. Let them take the lead in their own affairs, but be willing to step in and selflessly offer help if and when they ask for it. Know the difference between being someone's crutch, and being there to help them up when they fall.

Case study: Hanako has an inferiority complex. While the reflexive urge to assuage her fears and coddle her is understandable, this is not what she needs, nor what she wants. Hisao must realize that only Hanako knows what's best for Hanako - that the best way to help Hanako, is to help her help herself.

-----

Emi: Determination. There *will* be bumps in the road along the way, and that's 100% normal. Don't blow things out of proportion; accept that conflict will arise, and do what it takes to resolve it. Make compromises if you need to. Don't give up; put forth the effort to fight for a good thing.

Case study: Emi is emotionally distant - deep down, she *wants* to love, but her fear of loss keeps causing her to subconciously push others away. She cannot seem to stop this on her own, so Hisao must compensate by simply refusing to *be* pushed away - to stand there and weather the storm, until Emi is ready to accept both his presence and her own feelings.

-----

As far as I can tell, all of the bad endings in KS ultimately result from being an insensitive, obstinate blockhead. If you really pay attention to the girls' feelings and have some common sense regarding relationships (see the above guidelines), the bad choices are usually fairly obvious.



...wow this turned into a bit of an essay, didn't it? Sorry, I tend to pontificate sometimes on matters that mean a lot to me, and matters of the heart are high on that list.

not that hard??
"Is it more important to support the person you love, or understand them?"

"Is it more important to support the person you love, or understand them?"

Both.

inquisitivenegro wrote:"Is it more important to support the person you love, or understand them?"

I would think those are deeply connected with each other.
Love builds upon understanding. Understanding builds upon willingness to love.

Reksho wrote:I would think those are deeply connected with each other.
Love builds upon understanding. Understanding builds upon willingness to love.

I would disagree, you don't need to love something to try to understand it, or succeed in understanding it. In fact i think it's not that hard to try to understand something you hate.

Dream wrote:In fact i think it's not that hard to try to understand something you hate.

It is, though. If you hate something, you automatically shut yourself down to avoid incoming information. It is the very reason why hate exists, to avoid coming in contact with that which you hate.

For example, let's assume you hate statistics. You just dread to come in contact with it and you get a stomach ulcer when you see an equation. But you need to understand it because of the upcoming exam. So, to even understand statistics remotely, you need to open yourself up a wee bit to actually be able to delve into the subject. If you constantly yell ''I hate it, I don't want it!'', things wouldn't work. You need to have a willingness to develop a liking to the subject. And even if you don't like the subject, you do like the satisfaction that comes with having good results.

Everything happens with a reason. Most, if not all the hate in the world originates from misunderstanding and miscommunication. If a person slaps you in the face, you would hate this person. If a person slaps you in the face and you have the knowledge that this person is actually schizophrenic and has problems distinguishing what is real from what is in his head, you would not hate this person (logically anyway).

Let's take an extreme example: if a person kills someone that is dear to you, you would hate the guts out of this person. Nobody would blame you if you hate this person, want this person in jail, want him dead and don't want to see him for the rest of your life. But - strictly logically speaking - the reason why this happens is because you have closed the gate of understanding since hate has filled it up. The killer could have problems in his life that causes him to kill. He could have an illness. Or he is a sadist that likes to kill in order to hurt someone, in which case is also a form of an illness. There exist plausible reasons why this act happened, but because of the hate, this would not reach you.

My point being, how could you understand something you don't like? Human motivation doesn't work that way. It would go against the very point of hating, namely being to avoid that which you try to understand. And if you are talking about the possibility of understanding something in pure intellectual terms: of course this is possible, that would be dependent on intelligence. But it does not happen with humans because motivation precedes intellect.

I believe you can perfectly understand something or someone, and yet hate them. And sure hate certainly doesn't make things easy when you have to come in contact with the thing you hate, but outside extreme cases it doesn't make impossible either. Although indeed misunderstanding is the cause for the majority of hate in the world, i don't believe it is at all the only cause. Regarding your stadistic example, you could constantly yell "i hate it" and yet still get it done by willpower, saying you need to do this, or believing you should. It could poison you, but it can be done. I agree that in the murder case all that hatred and pain would inevitably blind you and you would have to be quite an unique individual to "forgive", so to say, the killer. But that is indeed an extreme case. It is more something intellectual than anything else indeed, but i believe you can emotionally (for lack of a better word) understand or sympathize with something and still be disgusted by it.

And on topic: Is anyone surprised that Hanako is the most voted choice?

My point being, how could you understand something you don't like? Human motivation doesn't work that way. It would go against the very point of hating, namely being to avoid that which you try to understand. And if you are talking about the possibility of understanding something in pure intellectual terms: of course this is possible, that would be dependent on intelligence. But it does not happen with humans because motivation precedes intellect.

I was in the military for eight years. There are a lot of things I had to do and wasn't given the choice not to do that I outright hated, despite knowing exactly why they needed to be done that certain way.

Oddball wrote:

My point being, how could you understand something you don't like? Human motivation doesn't work that way. It would go against the very point of hating, namely being to avoid that which you try to understand. And if you are talking about the possibility of understanding something in pure intellectual terms: of course this is possible, that would be dependent on intelligence. But it does not happen with humans because motivation precedes intellect.

I was in the military for eight years. There are a lot of things I had to do and wasn't given the choice not to do that I outright hated, despite knowing exactly why they needed to be done that certain way.

I understand but how does this relate to my point?
You understood what you had to do intellectually, sure. But disagreeing with how something should be done is not the same thing as hating it.

I didn't really go for anyone. I simply chose what I normally would.

Hate is a matter of will. You choose to hate. Information doesn't matter.

Loathing is an emotional response. You feel a repulsion or immediate dislike, but it's something that can be overcome by will. Case in point: most people have an instinctual loathing toward (the appearance of) cripples. Understanding is likely to reduce or eliminate the loathing. Even if you don't understand, even if you can't understand, you can choose to overcome the emotional reaction.

(And yes, these are the counterparts to love and infatuation.)
(Also, I may not be using the best terminology, but it's the intended meaning that matters, not the precise dictionary definition of a particular word. I admit that there may be "more appropriate" words.)

In response to the OP, I "went for" Emi entirely by accident. As in my mouse was acting up and had the bad habit of doubleclicking when I meant to single click. So it chose the "go for it" response before I even knew what the choices were. In fairness, it's probably better that way. I was on the course for Rin or a manly picnic, and I expect I would have ended up at the picnic, but will never know for sure. Don't think I could've handled (or really appreciated) Rin as my first arc.

After Emi, I decided to deliberately avoid all the girls, to see what would happen. Then I went for Rin, because she was right there. Hanako followed, then Shizune, then Lilly.

ProfAllister wrote:Hate is a matter of will. You choose to hate. Information doesn't matter.

Of course it does. Making a choice is based on the available information you have in your brain.

If identical twins stand before the same choice - let's say drinking a glass of some kind of liquid - and the one has information about it being poison and the other doesn't, it would very much influence the choice they would make. Consequently, you are saying that hate is a matter of will, a choice. Information influences choices, hence information does matter.


On a more on-topic note, Emi is starting to gain more votes, almost as many as Hanako. Maybe she is the most-played first girl after all.

Reksho wrote:On a more on-topic note, Emi is starting to gain more votes, almost as many as Hanako. Maybe she is the most-played first girl after all.

That's because if you chose to try and catch up with her, you're pretty much locked on her route.
For Hanako, you have to care a lot about her and ignore Emi at the track.

A while ago I did some checks to see the likelihood of each ending if you make random choices, so I also figured out which paths are most likely taken. I thought that info might be relevant, so...

Lilly: 1.7%
Hanako: 1.7%
Shizune: 4.0%
Rin: 15.3%
Emi: 23.3%
Manly Picnic: 53.9%

That's why Emi's so high. Hanako's so high becuase everyone loves the moeblob and people use flowcharts. Manly picnic is so low because people use flowcharts and you need to be somewhat indecisive or ignorant not to activate any girl's path.

Kyvos wrote:A while ago I did some checks to see the likelihood of each ending if you make random choices, so I also figured out which paths are most likely taken. I thought that info might be relevant, so...

Lilly: 1.7%
Hanako: 1.7%
Shizune: 4.0%
Rin: 15.3%
Emi: 23.3%
Manly Picnic: 53.9%

That's why Emi's so high. Hanako's so high becuase everyone loves the moeblob and people use flowcharts. Manly picnic is so low because people use flowcharts and you need to be somewhat indecisive or ignorant not to activate any girl's path.

Y'know, the moment I saw Hanako I suspected it was gonna be the least substantive, just based off my meager prior VN experience. Was I ever more wrong; I appreciated the deconstruction, enough can't be said for how fresh it was. And for some reason I thought Shizune's was gonna be the shadow hit lol.