Katawa Shoujo Forums

Kayo12 wrote:That the precise point of the Good Ending, though. Hisao thought Lilly was right, that she could handle things herself, that she knew best. He thought her independence was a good thing and it wasn't until after she left and he remembered the paper crane that he realized just how important she was to him and that he couldn't let her just walk away.

Her independence IS a good thing. It's her decision ultimately so he doesn't honestly have a say in it other than to beg, and I rather suspect that without the heart attack he'd have failed to convince her to reconsider with that course of action.

As for saying he had no idea about Lilly's problem, let's be honest, this is Hisao 'lie in the grave' Nakai we're talking about here.

I have no idea what that phrasing is supposed to mean, but until Akira told him what's up he really had no way at all of knowing.

As for rolling over, Hisao is anything but direct and confrontational.

He isn't belligerent about it, no, but he does force her to deal with the issue. Her response is to confirm it and to explain her reasoning so he knows she's already made up her mind... but then he probably expected as much and just wanted to hear it from her. He does press a bit to find out the decision was made a while ago (and in all honestly she knew she was leaving even before they went to the summer house, since it's eminent sale was the real motivation for the trip), and that point what else matters? it IS the foregone conclusion.

As for wanting to stay, what an absurd statement! Of course she wanted to stay! They were in love!

That doesn't look like love to me, but rather some dramatic fantasy of love straight out of a romance novel. She knew this was going nowhere right from the start and proceeded anyway, choosing to indulge in a 'tragic love affair' of her own design for selfish reasons. Love isn't built on lies.

The way I saw the ending, she thought Hisao's attitude was a sign that their relationship was just a high school romance, so she thought that it would be better to end it now on good terms than drag it out and have it slowly die.

It's quite a strange thing for you to try and assert that his response to learning about her decision was somehow retroactively a factor in her making that prior decision. Further, this kind of silly and overly dramatic behavior is strong evidence that it is just a high school thing, which is fitting because that's exactly what it is! They're just high school kids who've only ever dated each other (and even that for only a few weeks) so what the hell do they know about relationships? The odds of them still being together 5 years later are VERY low.

[Nemz]

Her independence IS a good thing. It's her decision ultimately so he doesn't honestly have a say in it other than to beg, and I rather suspect that without the heart attack he'd have failed to convince her to reconsider with that course of action.

Yet the tone of the story is that she was being called by her parents, showing that it wasn't really her choice, as shown by how grateful she was when she ended up staying.
Saying that Hisao doesn't have a say in the matter is like saying that Hisao had no say in getting Emi to open up or to interfere in the failing relationship between Misha and Shizune.

What right does he have to help someone he loves?

As for getting her to stay, I think Hisao would have a chance if he did talk to her face to face. Barring any moron statements that Hisao is famous for, I think he could be honest enough and tell her how he feels and she would be more than eager to stay with him. Again, in her Good End, she wanted to stay.

I have no idea what that phrasing is supposed to mean, but until Akira told him what's up he really had no way at all of knowing.

I'm talking about Hisao being a total moron and not picking up on not so subtle tips that the girl in his route is not okay. Emi's distance, Rin's confusion, Hanako not needing him to protect her. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I thought something was wrong long before Akira told Hisao that Lilly was leaving.

it IS the foregone conclusion.

Clearly not. In the Good End, by Hisao's action, she stays.

That doesn't look like love to me, but rather some dramatic fantasy of love straight out of a romance novel. She knew this was going nowhere right from the start and proceeded anyway, choosing to indulge in a 'tragic love affair' of her own design for selfish reasons. Love isn't built on lies.

True, love is not built on lies. But it is built on forgiveness.
And your wording 'straight out of a romance novel' is kind of telling that you wouldn't be happy with any explanation of Lilly's route. Her route IS the romance novel route.

The odds of them still being together 5 years later are VERY low.

Chances are the relationship would fall apart with any girl in the game.
Lilly has a step up over the rest of them, except Hanako. Considering that Hisao almost died and that Lilly has turned her back on her family, I can see them being together forever. You don't make that sort of sacrifice and then leave it behind.

While I still disagree with almost everything you said, I do appreciate that you took the time to read the story. I think your take on Lilly's route is a lot more pessimistic than mine and, as I can see by your signature, you're not necessarily a fan of hers anyway.

Nonetheless, thank you for reading my story.

Kayo12 wrote:Yet the tone of the story is that she was being called by her parents, showing that it wasn't really her choice, as shown by how grateful she was when she ended up staying. (...) What right does he have to help someone he loves?

But it clearly is her choice since she's choosing, and she chooses them in all cases save guilt tripping her with a heart attack.

I'm not really sure it's fair to say he's 'helping' her since if she wanted his help she'd have included him in the decision much earlier. Besides, he can hardly be considered nonbiased about her options.

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I thought something was wrong long before Akira told Hisao that Lilly was leaving.

And is there anything within the story you can point to about this feeling or is it just the metatextural knowledge that it wasn't over yet so clearly some twist must be approaching?

And your wording 'straight out of a romance novel' is kind of telling that you wouldn't be happy with any explanation of Lilly's route. Her route IS the romance novel route.

Fair enough on that count.

While I still disagree with almost everything you said, I do appreciate that you took the time to read the story.

Sure, I was interested to see if someone could make a decent case to explain away all the things that annoy the hell out of me in her last act, and while I do think you came up short it's not for lack of trying. Agree to disagree and leave it at that.

True, love is not built on lies. But it is built on forgiveness.

True love is not built on forgiveness, it is built on trust.
Sometimes forgiveness can restore the trust, but unless that trust is broken in the first place, you don't even need forgiveness.

As for getting her to stay, I think Hisao would have a chance if he did talk to her face to face. Barring any moron statements that Hisao is famous for, I think he could be honest enough and tell her how he feels and she would be more than eager to stay with him. Again, in her Good End, she wanted to stay.

He did tell her he loved her. She still decided to go away... No she didn't decide, she didn't change her prevous decision.
In her good end she stayed because he nearly died. This can be interpreted as her havng had an epiphany - or as guilt. I'm willing to give her the benefit of the doubt here, but that doesn't change her earlier behaviour.
I think Hisao handled the situation as well as anyone could be expected to. I'm not sure I could have stayed as civil as he did.

Hmmm... Took me a while to realize this is just i guess a extended cut of the route told from Lilly's perspective. Nice writing though so good job. Also, according to Word of God all the the good endings IS they live happily ever after kind of ending.

No god ever said anything of the sort.
The only answer ever given to questions like this was "That's up to your imagination"
You can probably find it somewhere on the first 70 pages of the ask-thread ^^°

Mirage_GSM wrote:No god ever said anything of the sort.
The only answer ever given to questions like this was "That's up to your imagination"
You can probably find it somewhere on the first 70 pages of the ask-thread ^^°

Really? Well if it's up to imagination then why wouldn't you assume they lived happily ever after.

Personal experience?

Mirage_GSM wrote:Personal experience?

Ok.... I rather be idealistic, but that's your choice.

If I'd had the choice, I'd have chosen not to have the experience