Katawa Shoujo Forums

Snow_Storm wrote: Just liike I'm so tired of people taking fictional video game characters seriously. Get help, son.

Psstt... I think you might be in the wrong forum.

With all the argument of 'Lilly being Mary Sue', Shizune is (xx), or Hanako is better off at (xx), we all can come to an agreement that...

...at least it's a better love story than twilight

Megumeru wrote:With all the argument of 'Lilly being Mary Sue', Shizune is (xx), or Hanako is better off at (xx), we all can come to an agreement that...

...at least it's a better love story than twilight

Or Gigli. (That's a few years back, I suppose.)

Megumeru wrote:With all the argument of 'Lilly being Mary Sue', Shizune is (xx), or Hanako is better off at (xx), we all can come to an agreement that...

...at least it's a better love story than twilight

ha ha, reminds me of this image I had on my computer:

Snow_Storm wrote:

Megumeru wrote:With all the argument of 'Lilly being Mary Sue', Shizune is (xx), or Hanako is better off at (xx), we all can come to an agreement that...

...at least it's a better love story than twilight

ha ha, reminds me of this image I had on my computer:

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z154 ... f45ede.jpg

Oh Twilight.

I read the first book through just so that I could have the right to mock my cousin about it.

It really was horrible. Words just can't describe how bad and bland it was.

None of them, just being realistic since they are young.

I don't think being young means none of them could last.

It doesn't mean they couldn't last, but it does mean they are statistically unlikely to.

Paddy wrote:Also, she is protective, of anyone she knows, and falters if she thinks she's made the wrong move. Like when Hisao collapsed when he tried to have blind sex with her, one of the things that hurt him was the pity in her voice.

This one's important to note, though, because in most works it would not be considered a major flaw: the kind of pseudo-flaw that many authors would use to mask a Mary Sue. But within the specific context of this game, which speaks out so vehemently against pity for the disabled, for Lilly to be a white knight (which, frankly, she is) becomes quite a serious flaw: far worse than it would be elsewhere. One might be able to work that "flaw" into a Sue in other works, but not here: here, pity is an instant disqualifier.

This is not to say that she isn't cliched. Given this game's source material, there's no way around that: the only thing the RAITA sketch ever said about "a blind girl" (who became Lilly) is that she would be "a bit cliched." Lilly is perhaps more than "a bit" cliched, which is saying something given that she was apparently toned down from some of the earlier concepts, some of which apparently were indeed Sues. But not all cliches lead to Mary Sue, and the cliches that made it through to the final game don't lead down that path.

Nekken wrote:

Paddy wrote:Also, she is protective, of anyone she knows, and falters if she thinks she's made the wrong move. Like when Hisao collapsed when he tried to have blind sex with her, one of the things that hurt him was the pity in her voice.

This one's important to note, though, because in most works it would not be considered a major flaw: the kind of pseudo-flaw that many authors would use to mask a Mary Sue. But within the specific context of this game, which speaks out so vehemently against pity for the disabled, for Lilly to be a white knight (which, frankly, she is) becomes quite a serious flaw: far worse than it would be elsewhere. One might be able to work that "flaw" into a Sue in other works, but not here: here, pity is an instant disqualifier.

It's ironic, isn't it? In Lilly's arc, Hisao's the one being patronised. In Hanako's, he's the patroniser.

This is not to say that she isn't cliched. Given this game's source material, there's no way around that: the only thing the RAITA sketch ever said about "a blind girl" (who became Lilly) is that she would be "a bit cliched." Lilly is perhaps more than "a bit" cliched, which is saying something given that she was apparently toned down from some of the earlier concepts, some of which apparently were indeed Sues. But not all cliches lead to Mary Sue, and the cliches that make it through to the final game don't lead down that path.

She still really is one of my favourite relationships.

Mirrormn wrote:It doesn't mean they couldn't last, but it does mean they are statistically unlikely to.

Yeah, it's about as likely as a person being born without arms who just happens to make friends with a person that doesn't have leg-- oh. Wait.

Seriously though, statistically speaking, every character in the game goes against the norm. The setting goes against the norm. While the story goes out of it's way to show that people are just people regardless, I think you you could easily make the argument that due to their unique nature as well as the nature of the school, they've could have built on special bonds between each other that you just simply don't see in normal highschools.

Nekken wrote:

Paddy wrote:Also, she is protective, of anyone she knows, and falters if she thinks she's made the wrong move. Like when Hisao collapsed when he tried to have blind sex with her, one of the things that hurt him was the pity in her voice.

This one's important to note, though, because in most works it would not be considered a major flaw: the kind of pseudo-flaw that many authors would use to mask a Mary Sue. But within the specific context of this game, which speaks out so vehemently against pity for the disabled, for Lilly to be a white knight (which, frankly, she is) becomes quite a serious flaw: far worse than it would be elsewhere. One might be able to work that "flaw" into a Sue in other works, but not here: here, pity is an instant disqualifier.

Another thing to note that stands out as a rather large flaw is that Lilly simply doesn't share her problems with people. She doesn't let other people know that she needs them. She tries to keep up the appearance of always knowing what to do and how to handle everything. What makes this even worse is that Hanako, apparently her best friend, really needs to feel needed and could use somebody that she could share her problems with. We've seen her shopping with Hisao, and have to assume that she typically shops with Hanako the same way. It's not like she doesn't want or need help shopping, just that she doesn't seem open about needing it.

I would have to say all of the above. For every path each individual takes, depending on their responses it shows an extremely emotional story.

Although, I have to say that the strongest relationships that will last for a very long time would be Emi's, Hanako's, and Lilly's.

Oddball wrote:

Mirrormn wrote:It doesn't mean they couldn't last, but it does mean they are statistically unlikely to.

Yeah, it's about as likely as a person being born without arms who just happens to make friends with a person that doesn't have leg-- oh. Wait.

Seriously though, statistically speaking, every character in the game goes against the norm. The setting goes against the norm. While the story goes out of it's way to show that people are just people regardless, I think you you could easily make the argument that due to their unique nature as well as the nature of the school, they've could have built on special bonds between each other that you just simply don't see in normal highschools.

Yes, true. I've actually argued the same point elsewhere (maybe even earlier in this thread =O). There is a fair amount of evidence to support that, due to the specific circumstances of the story, Hisao and his various loves can be considered statistical outliers with regards to emotional maturity and prospects of long term relationships.

@Trufax: damn straight!

As for the viability of the relationships, that's a hard one. I regard the characters as very human, but they're definitely still rooted in the archetypes of first love. As such, there are many qualities that are over-simplified for sake of an engaging narrative that are really relevant to the question of a committed relationship. The way two hearts orbit one-another at any one point over any great length of time is difficult to predict to say the least, and far harder given that these characters are at the start of their lives when they're going to set out to find their place in the world to say still more.

I don't believe in breaking up because of distance, not without assessing the strength and value of the bond anyway. The issue here is usually isolation, but it's all too common for couples to be isolated sitting in the same room if they've allowed themselves to be comfortable in the abundance of their other's availability. Distance would very likely be involved in the healthiest future of these relationships, as I also don't believe in surrendering one's dreams and ambitions to fulfill someone else's; it easily leads to codependency.

So the quality I look for in these relationships to answer whether or not they have a lasting future is that of the ability to live each day with thoughts of another in the back of your mind. If she can be taken at her word, I truthfully think Emi possesses this quality best. Take each day as it comes knowing you have a partner out there, even when you can't see him, who wants to share all the fantastic things that exist in the world with you. Truly believing in that promise is much harder to do in the everyday, though. I've yet to meet anyone capable.

As for Hisao's ability to espouse this philosophy, the parts of him that are proxy mean I can't really evaluate how firmly he believes in it.

I just HHHHHNNNNNGGGGGed while scrolling down.

Anyway, it's quite obvious that Hanako wouldn't let go of Hisao so easily, seeing that she hardly has anyone else to depend on/forge a relationship with, now that Lilly is out of the way...