Katawa Shoujo Forums

Alpacalypse wrote:I think I'm with Valjean on this one.

I think you are too!

All you say is true, but lends little to the consideration of whether this is a 'dick move' (I'm quite sure it isn't, literally) or not.
The 'dick move' idea comes from a deeper philosophical idea that to have someone restrict your freedom is a bad thing, that initially unpleasant surprises are a bad thing to do to people, and so on. You're projecting. But it's interesting to see that whatever Hisao initially feels, he's quite happy with the outcomes. It's Shizune who isn't, if you keep following her arc. And thus is justice served.

brythain wrote:

Alpacalypse wrote:I think I'm with Valjean on this one.

I think you are too!

All you say is true, but lends little to the consideration of whether this is a 'dick move' (I'm quite sure it isn't, literally) or not.
The 'dick move' idea comes from a deeper philosophical idea that to have someone restrict your freedom is a bad thing,

Hisao could not actively participate in his first time having sex. How is that not an objectively bad thing? And even if it's not an objectively bad thing, who gave Shizune the right to restrict Hisao's freedom? Regardless of the fact that he didn't resist, what makes it right for her to tie him to a chair, straddle him, and only untie him when she's finished? How on Earth was that called for? And what teenager indulges in bondage play when they've never even had sex before? Most people discuss that sort of thing with their partner first, and only proceed once they're sure they know what the other person is comfortable with.

So what gave Shizune the right to, as Alpacalypse put it, introduce Hisao to sex for the first time but make it so that he could not participate in the act?

You're projecting.

Unless you're saying that there weren't better ways for Shizune to go about having sex with Hisao, ways that didn't take all control away from Hisao, I don't think we're projecting...

But it's interesting to see that whatever Hisao initially feels, he's quite happy with the outcomes.

What are the outcomes? Shizune rode him and he reached orgasm... of course he'd be "happy" with that outcome. But even later he reflects on how he wished he could have moved around:

Valjean Lafitte wrote:

You're projecting.

Unless you're saying that there weren't better ways for Shizune to go about having sex with Hisao, ways that didn't take all control away from Hisao, I don't think we're projecting...

But it's interesting to see that whatever Hisao initially feels, he's quite happy with the outcomes.

What are the outcomes? Shizune rode him and he reached orgasm... of course he'd be "happy" with that outcome. But even later he reflects on how he wished he could have moved around:

]

See, it's quite obvious you're projecting. As Hisao, you want to be in control. That's hypocritical. You don't want Shizune to be in control because you yourself wanted to be in control. Now -that's- a dick move. Literally. Think about what that means to Shizune, who can't talk (as far as we know) or even hear what Hisao is saying (or not saying) during the act. Who needs to be in control for it to be 'fair'? Think about it.

brythain wrote:

Valjean Lafitte wrote:

You're projecting.

Unless you're saying that there weren't better ways for Shizune to go about having sex with Hisao, ways that didn't take all control away from Hisao, I don't think we're projecting...

But it's interesting to see that whatever Hisao initially feels, he's quite happy with the outcomes.

What are the outcomes? Shizune rode him and he reached orgasm... of course he'd be "happy" with that outcome. But even later he reflects on how he wished he could have moved around:

]

See, it's quite obvious you're projecting. As Hisao, you want to be in control. That's hypocritical. You don't want Shizune to be in control because you yourself wanted to be in control. Now -that's- a dick move. Literally. Think about what that means to Shizune, who can't talk (as far as we know) or even hear what Hisao is saying (or not saying) during the act. Who needs to be in control for it to be 'fair'? Think about it.

'Control' is a relative term. You know as well as I do that Hisao did not mean that he wanted to dominate and restrict Shizune. When Shizune was riding Hisao atop the Student Council room desk, she was, in a sense, in control because she had taken charge of their sex. But notice that in that instance Hisao can still feel her, can still freely move around, and can switch sides and get on top if he wishes to.

Also, not being able to hear what Hisao is saying during the act would not really put Shizune at a disadvantage if they were on an equal playing field. To answer your question, no one needs to be in control for it be fair. 'Controlled' sex, in the bondage sense, is only fair when it's discussed and agreed upon in advance. Restricting someone you know won't fight back because they trust you and they're afraid of hurting you? I'm not sure what to call that, but it doesn't strike me as a 'fair' way of controlling the situation.

Valjean Lafitte wrote:'Control' is a relative term. You know as well as I do that Hisao did not mean that he wanted to dominate and restrict Shizune. Also, not being able to hear what Hisao is saying during the act would not really put Shizune at a disadvantage if they were on an equal playing field. To answer your question, no one needs to be in control for it be fair. 'Controlled' sex, in the bondage sense, is only fair when it's discussed and agreed upon in advance. Restricting someone you know won't fight back because they trust you and they're afraid of hurting you? I'm not sure what to call that, but it doesn't strike me as a 'fair' way of controlling the situation.

It's only relative because you're reading into Hisao's words what you want to read. And from a scene where he is being a dick in all senses too. From which we can infer that Hisao is indeed being a dick and has dickish tendencies. So your psychological analysis falls against the immediate contextual analysis. If no one needs to be in control for it to be fair, then clearly by your logic Hisao is having unfair thoughts. Duh.

brythain wrote:

Valjean Lafitte wrote:'Control' is a relative term. You know as well as I do that Hisao did not mean that he wanted to dominate and restrict Shizune. Also, not being able to hear what Hisao is saying during the act would not really put Shizune at a disadvantage if they were on an equal playing field. To answer your question, no one needs to be in control for it be fair. 'Controlled' sex, in the bondage sense, is only fair when it's discussed and agreed upon in advance. Restricting someone you know won't fight back because they trust you and they're afraid of hurting you? I'm not sure what to call that, but it doesn't strike me as a 'fair' way of controlling the situation.

It's only relative because you're reading into Hisao's words what you want to read. And from a scene where he is being a dick in all senses too. From which we can infer that Hisao is indeed being a dick and has dickish tendencies. So your psychological analysis falls against the immediate contextual analysis. If no one needs to be in control for it to be fair, then clearly by your logic Hisao is having unfair thoughts. Duh.

Oh come on. If you want to talk contextual analysis, judge Hisao's character by the sum of his actions throughout the entire game, not by this one dickish thing he does with his girlfriend's best friend. I'm not reading into Hisao's words what I want to read, I'm reading something I know about Hisao that rings true throughout every route: he's not domineering. 'Control' to him doesn't mean restricting someone else's freedom. If you of all people who have written countless KS fics and read the game God knows how many times can't at least agree with that-- I mean, if you honestly think that Hisao means he would liked to have taken away Shizune's freedom of movement, that he would even think something along those lines -- I don't know why we're having this argument.

Seriously, I'm not reading anything into the text that hundreds of thousands of KS fans haven't already read into it. The way the scene plays out between Hisao and Misha is totally different from his experience with Shizune, and it would be obvious to anyone who has played the route that the 'control' that Shizune exerted over Hisao and the 'control' Hisao says he has in the situation with Misha are two entirely different things. To say that Hisao is 'controlling' Misha by unbuttoning her blouse and being on top just as Shizune controlled Hisao by restraining him to a chair is simply a false equation.

I'm just reading your logic and applying it.

1. No one needs to be in control.
2. Hisao says he'd prefer it.
3. You say control is dickish.

Therefore, Hisao is dickish or has dickish tendencies.

You're taking his side. Hence...

EDIT: Well, the key really is that they're different Hisaos in every route. You know this. Thousands of KS fans have millions of KS opinions. Not all of them can be right. I'm just looking at what you say, and asserting that you're projecting an opinion that may be partly supported but isn't necessarily true.

EDIT2: I just re-read your last para. What? I never brought Misha into my argument. By bringing that scene in, it was you who set up the false equivalence!

brythain wrote:I'm just reading your logic and applying it.

1. No one needs to be in control.
2. Hisao says he'd prefer it.
3. You say control is dickish.

Therefore, Hisao is dickish or has dickish tendencies.

You're taking his side. Hence...

Please re-read argument:

'Control' is a relative term. You know as well as I do that Hisao did not mean that he wanted to dominate and restrict Shizune. When Shizune was riding Hisao atop the Student Council room desk, she was, in a sense, in control because she had taken charge of their sex. But notice that in that instance Hisao can still feel her, can still freely move around, and can switch sides and get on top if he wishes to.

Also, not being able to hear what Hisao is saying during the act would not really put Shizune at a disadvantage if they were on an equal playing field. To answer your question, no one needs to be in control for it be fair. 'Controlled' sex, in the bondage sense, is only fair when it's discussed and agreed upon in advance. Restricting someone you know won't fight back because they trust you and they're afraid of hurting you? I'm not sure what to call that, but it doesn't strike me as a 'fair' way of controlling the situation.

I talk about two different forms of control: being in control over someone and having a sense of control, but you're only applying the former so that you can say I'm calling Hisao a dick. No offense, but that's a cheap argument tactic.

Having a sense of control, i.e., being able to move around freely, is not a dickish thing at all. It's obvious that's what Hisao meant and not that he wished could 'control' Shizune. How is that obvious? Because he says that now he is control as he wished then. But Alpacalypse and I only claimed that taking control away from Hisao (or in other words, exerting control over him) was a dickish thing to do -- that's clearly not what Hisao does to Misha.

Not all of them can be right. I'm just looking at what you say, and asserting that you're projecting an opinion that may be partly supported but isn't necessarily true.

See the above paragraph. My interpretation of that line is supported by the scene itself.

brythain wrote: EDIT2: I just re-read your last para. What? I never brought Misha into my argument. By bringing that scene in, it was you who set up the false equivalence!

You just said that Hisao would prefer it, which is only supported by the Misha screenshot I posted earlier. If that screenshot wasn't part of your argument for his 'dickish'ness, how on Earth did you even arrive at those conclusions?

Valjean Lafitte wrote:

brythain wrote: EDIT2: I just re-read your last para. What? I never brought Misha into my argument. By bringing that scene in, it was you who set up the false equivalence!

You just said that Hisao would prefer it, which is only supported by the Misha screenshot I posted earlier. If that screenshot wasn't part of your argument for his 'dickish'ness, how on Earth did you even arrive at those conclusions?

I'm just showing you where your introduction of non-contextual material leads us. YOU introduced dick-Hisao, since it's your only evidence that he didn't enjoy it.

brythain wrote:

Valjean Lafitte wrote:

brythain wrote: EDIT2: I just re-read your last para. What? I never brought Misha into my argument. By bringing that scene in, it was you who set up the false equivalence!

You just said that Hisao would prefer it, which is only supported by the Misha screenshot I posted earlier. If that screenshot wasn't part of your argument for his 'dickish'ness, how on Earth did you even arrive at those conclusions?

I'm just showing you where your introduction of non-contextual material leads us. YOU introduced dick-Hisao, since it's your only evidence that he didn't enjoy it.

It isn't evidence that he didn't enjoy it, it's evidence that he would have preferred to have some control over his situation. Which Shizune could have easily afforded him without losing control over her situation. Two people, having sex, both of them in control -- imagine that!

Munchenhausen wrote:Hell, if I had to literally ask my girlfriend to affirm her consent before we engaged in any form of the rumpy-pumpy, the whole atmosphere would become rather awkward...

There is a significant and powerful faction that holds that if she isn't actually saying "yes" at every stage of the escalation, there is no consent.

Check it.

Also I had never heard "rumpy-pumpy" before. I'm stealing it.

Trogdor wrote:

Munchenhausen wrote:Hell, if I had to literally ask my girlfriend to affirm her consent before we engaged in any form of the rumpy-pumpy, the whole atmosphere would become rather awkward...

There is a significant and powerful faction that holds that if she isn't actually saying "yes" at every stage of the escalation, there is no consent.

Check it.

Also I had never heard "rumpy-pumpy" before. I'm stealing it.

I wouldn't bring up the People's Republic of Tyranny that is California in here. Jussayin

Steinherz wrote:I wouldn't bring up the People's Republic of Tyranny that is California in here. Jussayin

Burninating is my job.

Munchenhausen wrote:Hell, if I had to literally ask my girlfriend to affirm her consent before we engaged in any form of the rumpy-pumpy, the whole atmosphere would become rather awkward...

Japan says hi.

Losing it early and going for the rumpy-pumpy usually meant you're 110% committed--or planning to be a AV idol. It can severely affect your future, which is also the reason why our population is declining.

No one wants to get married

Well, this one exploded a bit

Anyways, actually, Brythrain is right on this one - I was projecting my moral foundation onto a character from a different culture, with a different set of moral obligations. Sorry 'bout that
On a side note, If you want to read about different moral foundations and how humans have managed to become so divided whilst all believing that they themselves are in the right, I highly recommend The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. Explains a lot about how people decide on their moralities and why there are different sets of moral standards [/shameless book plug]

I will say, however, that I did not think that Shizune wanting control over the situation was wrong - that's entirely desirable, especially considering it was (IIRC) her first time too. What I was taking issue with was Shizune taking total control over the situation whilst affording very little to Hisao, which was brought up in the Misha sex scene (which I actually haven't played through yet, by virtue of my general apathy towards Shizune's route - should probably get on that). Generally, it would be preferable if they were both on equal footing in that scene. If Hisao wanted total control over the situation as well, then yeah, he's a dick, too (but, considering Rin's route, we all know that he has the potential) but it's not specified that he wanted total control (IIRC).
However, you are right that that view comes purely from my own moral standpoint and it's kinda hard to view things from a different one that I don't fully understand. Again, apologies for not recognising my mistake.
Internet debates over fictional sex scenes are fun.