Katawa Shoujo Forums

Dullfinn wrote:Really? That sucks... I think the game should be WAY more clear about stuff like that. I wonder if it's just bad design, or something that would have required more tinkering with the engine? (I find the flowcharts somewhat confusing. They should be, at the very least, built-in, if not also more explicit...)

Actually, that approach is what I would expect from a VN (I haven't read/played any others, so I don't actually know). If you get choices, your choices should determine your experience to some extent. A simple example is the scene where you're forced to encourage Rin to do the exhibition. There are a lot of different choices in that one (and which choices you get to choose between often depends on other choices you made before). The point of it is to let you vary Hisao's personality to some extent. Clearly, if you say different things, if you are a different person, Rin will react in different ways, with different characterisation implications. It's clear that you get a more complete picture of Rin, if you see all of them.

But the story unfolds from Hisao's perspective, and he can only ever do one thing at a time. And he will only ever trigger one set of responses. If this were a regular novel, there would be no choices, and you'd be left guessing for the "holes" in the narrative. No story is "complete". And anything you write down could have been different.

For the record, I don't think you're missing "vital information" in any playthrough.

Mirrormn wrote:When I argue for, or speculate about, the implication of Rin's suicide after the events of the neutral ending, I'm thinking more in the context of what I believe Aura was trying to tell us through his writing than what I believe Rin would do if she were a real person.

Could you clarify? The most I could agree to is that the inclusion of the suicide is supposed to make us worry.

I read the text as a point-of-view tango: we're not our dance partners. Basically, I think the suicide is yet another stage for points-of-view to meet: Nomiya, Sae, and Hisao have all markedly different takes on that. Nomiya either doesn't worry, engages in denial, or thinks its an acceptable risk. Sae has a sort of fatalist attitude and goes for damage control. And Hisao is frightened that he's bitten off more than he can chew. Neither of them face the possiblity head on.

Rather than waiting for us to bring up the obvious cliché of the artist suicide by ourselves, the text presents us with it, and plays around with it, just like with anything else. I'd say the inclusion of the suicide is proactive undermining of a worry that the author could reasonably expect readers to come up on their own. Undermining not in the sense of "won't-happen"; more by throwing you back on yourself. You're worrying about Rin? Well, so do they all. What does that say about Rin? You think you understand her? Well, I do think I undertand her. But - ultimately - the joke's on me. The text makes it quite clear that - no matter how much I may identify with her - I am not her. The suicide's just another facet of this.

Dullfinn wrote:Well, the contrast was to your statistics. And yes, Rin is a special case - especially because she's fictional! But I don't have a hard time imagining scenarios... how about a cucumber lodged between sofa cushions?

Hah. That actually sounds like it would be horrendously difficult to get working properly. Anyway, I'm not saying it's impossible for her to have masturbated in the past, just that it's not unlikely enough for her to have not done so that there is any reason to doubt her own implication that she hasn't. If that makes sense.

Dullfinn wrote:(I suppose it comes down to how she views or feels about sexuality. And that - like pretty much everything else about her - is a mystery to me.)

Well, she does put a high value on personal experiences, especially ones that are unique and intense, and seems to be pretty open and unembarrassed about discussing sexual topics. It's hard to imagine her not being curious, and it's nearly impossible to imagine her having some sort of shameful moral aversion to the act itself. I really think she has just avoided the attempt because it would be (and, as evidenced in the game, is) difficult for her in a purely practical sense. Or perhaps she has tried before, but never reached orgasm, due to that same difficulty, and that's what she means when she refers to "marital purity". That actually seems pretty likely, now that I think about it.

Dawnstorm wrote:

Mirrormn wrote:When I argue for, or speculate about, the implication of Rin's suicide after the events of the neutral ending, I'm thinking more in the context of what I believe Aura was trying to tell us through his writing than what I believe Rin would do if she were a real person.

Could you clarify? The most I could agree to is that the inclusion of the suicide is supposed to make us worry.

I will not clarify, because this:

Dawnstorm wrote:I read the text as a point-of-view tango: we're not our dance partners. Basically, I think the suicide is yet another stage for points-of-view to meet: Nomiya, Sae, and Hisao have all markedly different takes on that. Nomiya either doesn't worry, engages in denial, or thinks its an acceptable risk. Sae has a sort of fatalist attitude and goes for damage control. And Hisao is frightened that he's bitten off more than he can chew. Neither of them face the possiblity head on.

Rather than waiting for us to bring up the obvious cliché of the artist suicide by ourselves, the text presents us with it, and plays around with it, just like with anything else. I'd say the inclusion of the suicide is proactive undermining of a worry that the author could reasonably expect readers to come up on their own. Undermining not in the sense of "won't-happen"; more by throwing you back on yourself. You're worrying about Rin? Well, so do they all. What does that say about Rin? You think you understand her? Well, I do think I undertand her. But - ultimately - the joke's on me. The text makes it quite clear that - no matter how much I may identify with her - I am not her. The suicide's just another facet of this.

is a much more intriguing outlook than anything I could come up with as explanation, so I am going to steal it and replace my own opinion with it.

Yuno wrote:Did anyone else notice this?

Dang i think you were totally ignored. I want to bring this back up couldn't we use this as an excuse for a patch on KS and possibly reason for them to make a misha route or heck even a Kenji route.

But then again, that's wishing for too much, at least patch this and whatever errors and make this a truly perfect game. That mistake set it at 99.99 perfect%

Despite what people think about the good ending, and how they never really came out and became a real couple or whatever, I find it perfect.

Their feelings for each other defy labels. If they started saying "boyfriend" and "girlfriend", they'd think of it in a different way. So instead, they're just Hisao and Rin. And that's what the best thing they can be.

I went for the Rin ending first, but because I made a wrong choice early on I just ended up with Kenji....

After that I redid it and got the good ending!

The first H-Scene was indeed soul-shattering, but so was the bit later on when Hisao started venting on her.

It was a lot more serious than I expected it to be, but it felt like that was mostly Hisao's fault. Him getting worked up over nothing and so on.

Honestly, Rin was the first story I ended up with in the full-version. I wasn't exactly paying attention in the prologue, and just clicked answers - which, come to think of it, seems like the perfect way to end up initiating her story. Once the story proper started and the journey began, I was riveted. The way Rin interacts with the world is rather unique all on its own, as is the way Hisao attempts to woo her.

The idea that she'd be so conflicted about the gallery event, as well as being completely overwhelmed by the nagging sense that she wasn't good enough for it - even though she's basically a prodigy - really resonated. The ways in which she tries to access that creative genius are mesmerizing and beautifully portrayed - both in text and via imagery. The ever-underlying subtext about her communicating through her art is something I was intrigued by, and felt facets off in my experience. As is her inability to describe or label her work - or answer questions about 'where it came from', or 'what it means'.

It seems to me that when she she puts paint to canvas, she's telling a story through images - a story about how she sees the world - and it's her one wish for someone to see her art and understand her without having to ask. There's also a real sense that she's hoping someone can explain it to her.

In any case, the story is a trip. It keeps you wondering all the time how it'll turn out. My only real complaint is that Nomiya, even though he has a checkered past with prodigy artists, doesn't seem to see any of the issues Rin is having - nor does he seem terribly concerned about her scattered behavior. Is he distancing himself, is he that blind, or is he just a blustering jerk?

Just finished Rin's path and got the Good ending in the field. I have to state though but I couldn't really feel anything in this route despite being an artist myself who has went through (several times) of aggravation when it comes to the craft. Rin would never open up to the MC and it just seemed to me like she was toying with him like he was some other object not unlike her paints. I felt the MC poured so much into her only to be continuously shot down it was infuriating although I too wish the MC was more up-front with his feelings more. I also think the MC failed her too when that ass of a teacher shouted at her what he did (really insulting her, and saying she isn't a real artist? He had to know she wasn't normal mentally either!) he should have burst in to the room and saved her from that and kicked that guys ass as well.

In the end though Rin let another of her walls down for the MC and she seemed to be really happy it just seemed like they still never really understood each other that she still doesn't understand what romance really is(true the MC said this couldn't be a normal relationship) that the only positive outlook I got from the good ending is it didn't seem like Rin would commit suicide anymore and yes suicides are very high in this career being an artist does change you a lot emotionally too much in a way.

Newbonomicon wrote:Despite what people think about the good ending, and how they never really came out and became a real couple or whatever, I find it perfect.

Their feelings for each other defy labels. If they started saying "boyfriend" and "girlfriend", they'd think of it in a different way. So instead, they're just Hisao and Rin. And that's what the best thing they can be.

That was how I felt about it, too. I don't think they're ever going to have a conventional relationship as I would define it, but part of the point of Rin's path seemed to be that that's okay. It doesn't need to be defined; it's enough that, whatever it is, it just is.

Helbereth wrote:My only real complaint is that Nomiya, even though he has a checkered past with prodigy artists, doesn't seem to see any of the issues Rin is having - nor does he seem terribly concerned about her scattered behavior. Is he distancing himself, is he that blind, or is he just a blustering jerk?

My take on Nomiya was that he saw himself as Rin's benefactor, going out of his way to help her into a real art career. I thought he probably saw her as wasting her potential and being lazy, and based on the way he acted in general, I suspect he thought Rin's obtuseness was just her being weird for the sake of being weird or philosophical. He obviously poured a lot of himself into her career, and wanted her to succeed, but it seemed fairly obvious to me that he was also trying to live out his own failed artistic dreams through her. In the end, I think he blew up at her because he was angry that all of his efforts had gone to naught, that she had embarrassed him in front of all his art-world friends at the gallery (reputation obviously matters quite a bit to him - it's the currency of his career), and that, in the end, she remained obtuse instead of offering him any kind of explanation for her behavior. I can see that he would have wanted to impress upon her that you can't be flaky and expect to have a lasting career in art.

In short, I think he meant well, being her teacher rather than trying to be her friend, but was overly emotional about it (go figure, he's an artist) and became more concerned about her professional success (and his own) than he did about her psychological well-being. While I don't like the man, it's not as though he understood Rin any more than anyone else did. She only opens up to Hisao in her path, and even he still struggles to understand her.

I was wondering...This suddenly just popped into my head. What do you think Rin would do after graduation? We could see everyone else having a bright planned out future, but I can't imagine anything Rin would do. What do you guys think?

(aww come on, not every artist is super emotional like Nomiya is...like me maybe? I think anyone can get emotional at their own big personal problems.)

ZXRN wrote:What do you think Rin would do after graduation?

Perhaps she will just... muck about. Of the three girls I've met (Emi, Rin, Shizune) she seems really lost for direction. While it never comes up, could she live on some sort of disability benefit? That way she could do just what she does. Being Rin. Art.

Just finished up with the Rin arc yesterday. Previously had done Lilly, Emi, and Shizune's.

I feel like I'm one of the few ones that didn't really get emotionally invested in her story at all :/

I can't really understand where people are coming from. Like, I was never confused by Rin. I understood pretty much all of what she did and was even impressed by her sometimes. There was no real "mystery" for me remaining by act 3 or 4, yet everyone seems to think of her route as super-emotional and stuff.
I'm not saying her route isn't well written, but I didn't really get why people were so emotionally invested in her and stuff. Like, I hear talk about the smoking scene all the time, yet when I saw that scene it just makes sense in my mind, and still does when I go back to it, yet I can never feel emotional about it.
I admit, however, that I at no point really felt any emotional attachment to Rin, which may have been the problem. I get the feeling that if I had cared about Rin, I might have felt more emotionally moved by her arc, because I understood her and related to her, but never really "cared" for her. However, I don't know if I should be feeling emotionally invested in the story because of Rin or because of what happens. I'm not exactly an emotional brick wall, so I can't really understand why I didn't feel anything, and it was really disappointing for me.

I guess I sort of just want to ask, what do people find so emotionally powerful about Rin's route? Like, can anyone tell me some examples of parts that made them "cry" or feel sad, and why it did this?

Edibility: Debatable wrote:I didn't really get why people were so emotionally invested in her and stuff.

For me, it was a measure of personal experience coloring my perception. Identifying with Rin, and seeing aspects of myself in her, I was thus enthralled. Having had similar experiences (superficially, of course) back when I was nearing the end of high school, I was very interested in seeing it play through. My personal investment made seeing through to the end a priority, and I was not disappointed.

Conversely, I felt almost no attachment to Emi's tale because I had no similar experience with which I could relate to her plight. Figuring out the ending as early as Act 2, I kept reading to see it through more than out of any personal interest. By the end, I felt rather detached from her story; I'd had no real investment in seeing its outcome.

Helbereth wrote:

Edibility: Debatable wrote:I didn't really get why people were so emotionally invested in her and stuff.

For me, it was a measure of personal experience coloring my perception. Identifying with Rin, and seeing aspects of myself in her, I was thus enthralled. Having had similar experiences (superficially, of course) back when I was nearing the end of high school, I was very interested in seeing it play through. My personal investment made seeing through to the end a priority, and I was not disappointed.

Conversely, I felt almost no attachment to Emi's tale because I had no similar experience with which I could relate to her plight. Figuring out the ending as early as Act 2, I kept reading to see it through more than out of any personal interest. By the end, I felt rather detached from her story; I'd had no real investment in seeing its outcome.

That's one of the things that confused me. I related with Rin a lot in the same way as many people are talking about, but that didn't seem to have any affect on me :/
Plus, her character seemed a bit simplistic to me overall. Maybe it's just my perspective on it giving me this view, but I could very easily list off her character traits off the top of my head in just a few minutes and there would be nothing more to her character. I mean, those traits are really interesting to me, but more on an intellectual level than emotional, because I wasn't able to care for her character.

Edibility: Debatable wrote:

Helbereth wrote:

Edibility: Debatable wrote:I didn't really get why people were so emotionally invested in her and stuff.

For me, it was a measure of personal experience coloring my perception. Identifying with Rin, and seeing aspects of myself in her, I was thus enthralled. Having had similar experiences (superficially, of course) back when I was nearing the end of high school, I was very interested in seeing it play through. My personal investment made seeing through to the end a priority, and I was not disappointed.

Conversely, I felt almost no attachment to Emi's tale because I had no similar experience with which I could relate to her plight. Figuring out the ending as early as Act 2, I kept reading to see it through more than out of any personal interest. By the end, I felt rather detached from her story; I'd had no real investment in seeing its outcome.

That's one of the things that confused me. I related with Rin a lot in the same way as many people are talking about, but that didn't seem to have any affect on me :/
Plus, her character seemed a bit simplistic to me overall. Maybe it's just my perspective on it giving me this view, but I could very easily list off her character traits off the top of my head in just a few minutes and there would be nothing more to her character. I mean, those traits are really interesting to me, but more on an intellectual level than emotional, because I wasn't able to care for her character.

More on an intellectual level is right. One of the things I liked most about Rin was she is very individualistic, which is more a trait of a Western relationship; Rin and Hisao both act with more autonomy than any of the other couples, and they treat each other as equal parties in love. In that way I find Rin to be in a way, way more sophisticated. And personally, I could relate to a desire for autonomy, true love, and understanding in a relationship above all the others.