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She was born with heavily deformed arms and soon after her birth, they where amputated . But I also forgot where in the VN that is stated.

gRaViJa wrote:She was born with heavily deformed arms and soon after her birth, they where amputated . But I also forgot where in the VN that is stated.

It's not in the game itself, but is stated in her bio on the Katawa Shoujo website:

Since Rin’s arms are tiny stumps due to a severe birth defect and subsequent surgery, she uses her feet and occasionally her mouth to do everything

Finally, I finished Rin's route(s) a couple of nights ago. Ended up with the neutral ending (break-up in rain) first. After Emi's fun and somewhat realistic route, I now have mixed feelings about Rin's. In a way I even feel cheated, somehow, because she definitely wasn't the kind of character I thought she was. What with being so "weird but cool" (as Hisao puts it) in the demo/Act1 - and also on Emi's path - but ending up being... well, something else entirely. Not necessarily a bad thing, per se, but just something I wasn't expecting and didn't like.

In hindsight, I wonder if it could have even been possible to write her as the kind of character she first seemed like? I mean, I really loved the scene where she had "OD'd" with the cough-medicine - my absolute favourite in the story - but a whole story with encounters like that? I'm not sure... Sadly, I didn't really "get" the story, at all. I felt it dragging too much, and the questions/decicions were very arbitrary. The over-all feeling I got from it, was that Rin was just toying with Hisao. (And he was a real doofus, too!) There was also no real progression, not on his part anyway. He's just watching from the sidelines, everything happening around Rin. Hisao is left there to, what, doodle with himself? That's why I didn't feel bad at all when Nomiya went all apeshit when scoulding Rin. And even Emi suggested she and Hisao should kick Rin's ass.

And speaking of Nomiya; judging from this thread, he's a very under-rated character. I mean, I can definitely see where he's coming from and what his motivations are. I don't think he's desperately trying to re-live anything through Rin, it's just that he's very passionate about art and especially the "art scene". It's always painful to see someone gifted having troubles, not reaching their full potential... In fact, I'd say (for me) Nomiya was definitely the highlight of this story/path. As a art-school dropout myself, I can very much relate to pretty much all of the art stuff, from musings on 'what is art' and what makes 'an artist' tick, to how much it means the have exhibitions and how important it is to garner some name-recognition.

After reading all (yes, honestly) posts above, I feel a bit better about Rin's path, though. I'd especially like to thank Mirrormn for all the analysis offered, and also the one person who saw symbolism in the way Hisao and Rin shared the umbrella in the rain. Perhaps the story was just a little too "highbrow" for my taste. (Or the fact, that I read it drunk, made me miss all the important, yet subtle nuances.) Still, I have some unanswered questions. Like, what was the talk about Rin's need to "break" herself? It comes up strongly in the masturbation scene, yet I don't understand the connection. It is as if it's implied that it is her first time masturbating? I mean, really? The cough-medicide and smoking I can kinda get, but not that... Also, is it only on her "neutral end" that she decides to go to the fancy art-school? (And what on earth could possibly be the in-game explanation for Hisao drawing a Yuuko-plant on his testpaper, heh.)

On a sidenote, I found all your discussion about Rin having Asperger's syndrome quite funny, and - well - retarted, too. Given that aspies have trouble recognizing facial expressions (unlike Rin, who is puzzled about Hisao's apparent perpetual sad face) and don't tend to be very artistic or creative (this latter part is mainly my own experiences, so you can take it with a grain of salt, as it were) I think it's clear she isn't autistic.

Anyhoo, next up Shizune, I suppose. But mainly for Misha. I'm a little puzzled as to why Hanako and Lilly seem to be so popular, since they've never really attracted me, at all. I'm not sure if I'm going to read their routes, because I've already invested a little too much time with this product (for lack of a better word). Hmm...

Dullfinn wrote: After reading all (yes, honestly) posts above, I feel a bit better about Rin's path, though. I'd especially like to thank Mirrormn for all the analysis offered

Hey, no problem. It actually took me quite a while to... feel okay about Rin's route, even the good ending. At first, I felt a little like you did: frustrated at Rin, frustrated at Hisao, frustrated at the resolution of their story, etc. I think Rin's route contains some uncomfortable truths that you have to come to terms with before you can actually enjoy the story for what it is, and I'm always happy to help other people reach that enjoyment. People that don't like or don't understand Rin's route make me sad

I did not enjoy this path. It left a bad taste in my mouth.

None of the choices really seemed to do with anything, and even in the good ending, it seems like they ended up together because it was written to be so. There was a lot of anger between us, and when there wasn't, she just kept being closed off and distance. We never closed the distance, but simply got tot the end of the game. It's a sharp contrast from the other paths I've played through, where the protagonist and the love interest both grown as people together.

Dullfinn wrote:Still, I have some unanswered questions. Like, what was the talk about Rin's need to "break" herself? It comes up strongly in the masturbation scene, yet I don't understand the connection. It is as if it's implied that it is her first time masturbating? I mean, really?

1. Rin paints to express herself, in particular to capture a Rin-mental-snapshot on canvas to help her remember past-Rin when she looks at it. Having other people understand her by looking at the paintings is a secondary reason; actually more of a hope than a reason.

2. Remember when she tells Hisao about this, and Hisao suggests Rin write a diary? Rin says that's a good idea. That's programmatic for how Rin works. Hisao doesn't understand that the paintings are Rin's diary - Rin isn't good with words. But when Rin is with other people she needs to rely on words, even though she's not that good at it. She's perceptive and instinctively takes in the other person's perspective. So when Rin says "That's a good idea," she means it. In a way, Hisao has "taken her over".

3. This happens a lot in different ways. Sometimes Rin has epiphanies (such as when she talks about the change with respect to the sky and herself, and Hisao points out the conncection), but mostly it's Rin and Hisao approaching each other, and Rin seeing herself - unconsciously - in Hisao's terms. That doesn't work out too well in the long run; that's why it looks like she's playing with Hisao. But she isn't. It's her method of trying to connect, even though she's not quite aware of it. Word-meaning is always tentative; and words change meaning the more you get to know your conversation partner.

4. What does this have to do with the above? Well, if Rin paints with an exhibition in mind, she no longer paints to express herself. Or rather, she still does, but the institutional context of the exhibition is foremost on her mind. Since painting is still a means of self-expression, her self gets subsumed under the purpose of exhibiting painting. It's a state of continual stage fright; not good for creativity.

5. And to complicate stuff, she has no clear conversation partner. There's no-one to approach. Hisao wants her to do it. Nomiya wants her to do it. Sayonji runs the exhibition. Lots of people will ask her about her paintings. Paintings need names (or do they?) Or maybe they'll be numbered... All these things intrude on Rin and fill her; but she gets nothing personal in return.

6. That leads to a situation where the current Rin is insufficient. She must get rid of that insufficient Rin. She can't paint to express herself; she needs to paint to please others. To build up the new Rin, she has to destroy the old Rin.

7. So what about the masturbation? Rin's exhausting herself painting. Since she usually paints expressing herself, she needs things to express. That is: she needs to live. See how she recharges by aimlessly wandering about and looking at interesting things? She's missing that input, so she can't have output. But she needs to. So there's this growing feeling of despair, but it doesn't want to come out anymore. Rin needs to feel herself again, and she can't in that static atelier. Masturbation is practically the only non-damaging path left. The next step is self-mutilation. Orgasm might work. Pain, too. See?

Also, is it only on her "neutral end" that she decides to go to the fancy art-school?

It's not conclusive, but I'm pretty sure she at least delays it. It's most likely something Nomiya suggested, and he's angry with her for the time being, and it's not something she'll actively persue until she has to (e.g. post-graduation plans and no good alternatives).

On a sidenote, I found all your discussion about Rin having Asperger's syndrome quite funny, and - well - retarted, too. Given that aspies have trouble recognizing facial expressions (unlike Rin, who is puzzled about Hisao's apparent perpetual sad face) and don't tend to be very artistic or creative (this latter part is mainly my own experiences, so you can take it with a grain of salt, as it were) I think it's clear she isn't autistic.

I agree; I don't think she's autistic. I disagree that it's silly to think so; she has some of the symptoms, and autism has quite a spectrum to it.

Dullfinn wrote:Still, I have some unanswered questions. Like, what was the talk about Rin's need to "break" herself? It comes up strongly in the masturbation scene, yet I don't understand the connection. It is as if it's implied that it is her first time masturbating? I mean, really?

It's really not that hard to believe. She doesn't have any arms, yknow; masturbation would be quite difficult. Many non-disabled girls don't start masturbating until later in life in the first place.

As for Rin's rhetoric of "destroying" or "breaking" herself: this is largely metaphorical. Rin says she doesn't understand or like using metaphors, but she actually uses them all the time, and with deeper meaning than most other people. Rin also has a rather odd conception of conscious identity and self-permanence, and will often define "herself" as a collection of habits and behaviors. Thus, when she declares that she is going to change, or that she needs to destroy herself, it just means that she is going to change her behavioral patterns, abandon her past habits and adopt new ones, etc. This would be kind of mundane if Rin didn't ascribe so much importance to the experience of the present. She is unable to view herself as anything more than her current actions and state of mind, so acting in a different way is tantamount to being an entirely different person.

And yes, as Dawnstorm explained, Rin specifically wants to "destroy" herself while she is painting for her exhibition because she is at a loss for sources of creative inspiration. She usually paints what she feels, but being isolated in the atelier gives her very few experiences to convey onto canvas. Furthermore, she is probably looking for more intense and gritty experiences than she has had so far in her life, because she thinks such experiences will lead to better, more profound paintings (remember when Sae initially sees Rin's work, Sae calls it kitten-like and lacking inspiration). Thus, she looks for more "adult" activities to undertake, even if they have unattractive consequences: she tries smoking despite it being unhealthy and addictive, masturbation despite it being difficult and humiliating... she might even tell Hisao to stop coming to the atelier in part because she wants to fully experience the pain of isolation and longing.

Dawnstorm wrote:Rin needs to feel herself again, and she can't in that static atelier. Masturbation is practically the only non-damaging path left. The next step is self-mutilation. Orgasm might work. Pain, too. See?

I understand your point - and in fact, when the first more explicit masturbation picture came scrolling up, I though Rin had cut-marks (scars) on her body. But it turned out they were just droplets of sweat, or something, heh.

But...

Mirrormn wrote:It's really not that hard to believe. She doesn't have any arms, yknow; masturbation would be quite difficult. Many non-disabled girls don't start masturbating until later in life in the first place.

...I'm still not buying this. I mean, thanks for your thoughts, both of you, but the fact is, there's lots of devices one can stick to walls or the floor, and even devices that are specifically designed to be sat on, so it doesn't really make sense that Rin would have trouble masturbating, in some way. After all, in the story it is given that she can dress herself and maintain some level of personal hygiene, too. (And I definitely disagree on how old girls tend to be when they start experimenting sexually, be it by themselves or with a partner.)

I think my main gripe about the scene is that Hisao just seems to bumble in there, surprising Rin. It would make more sense (or be more powerful) if Rin had invited Hisao beforehand, with something special in mind - or perhaps the complete opposite: asking him to help her from the get-go, kind of out-of-the-blue, since he happened to be there already. Now it's more in the line of "hey, since you caught me like this, would you mind finishing me off, because I don't really have any other use for you right now".

There's also one other thing I'm not "buying": In my previous post, I didn't touch the subject of suicide, deciding it wasn't very important. But after checking out the "bad end" again, I'd image Hisao being far more likely to commit suicide, than Rin! I mean, she's always led an abnormal life, but to Hisao his condition is still something new. If he gets angry and bitter about the (relatively small amount of) time he wasted with Rin, he's definitely going to face bigger problems, and probably projects (or relationships) that end up being even more wasteful, in the future. Can he take it? Rin, on the other hand, would probably just keep living day-to-day the way she's always done, without much of a hitch. So, while there was the story about Nomiya and Sae's old friend, who killed himself, I don't think it matters much, because in the real world, lost of people kill themselves every day - yet it doesn't mean that someone wholly different would also do it, even if faced with similar problems and circumstances. That's why I don't really get why some claim that Rin would kill herself (in any of the scenarios presented in the game).

Dullfinn wrote:...I'm still not buying this. I mean, thanks for your thoughts, both of you, but the fact is, there's lots of devices one can stick to walls or the floor, and even devices that are specifically designed to be sat on, so it doesn't really make sense that Rin would have trouble masturbating, in some way. After all, in the story it is given that she can dress herself and maintain some level of personal hygiene, too. (And I definitely disagree on how old girls tend to be when they start experimenting sexually, be it by themselves or with a partner.)

I'm honestly not sure about Rin's masturbatory history, and to be honest I don't think it's that important. I don't think it needs to be a "new" experience to make sense in the context.

I think my main gripe about the scene is that Hisao just seems to bumble in there, surprising Rin. It would make more sense (or be more powerful) if Rin had invited Hisao beforehand, with something special in mind - or perhaps the complete opposite: asking him to help her from the get-go, kind of out-of-the-blue, since he happened to be there already. Now it's more in the line of "hey, since you caught me like this, would you mind finishing me off, because I don't really have any other use for you right now".

Heh, I can see why you have problems with Rin's route. It's vital characterisation that he surprises her in a very embarrassing situation. The way she reacts is utterly Rinny. One of the main aspects of Rin is the vast difference between that flat exterior and utterly chaotic emotional cauldron she has inside. She's so busy sorting her feelings that she forgets to feel them. Unless she goes with the flow. She reminds him that she asked him not to come by again, and then adapts to changed circumstances. It looks like it's no big deal for Rin, but I think that's deceptive. Part of the scene's purpose is to show how much she implicitly trusts Hisao. Remember that she - reportedly - kicked Emi when she tried to hug her. Rin not trying to evade an embarrassing situation is a big deal.

What you suggest gives Rin a level of planning she's simply not capable of in that situation. She's already overwhelmed with the situation, and planning anything is hard for her, even when she's comfortable.

There's also one other thing I'm not "buying": In my previous post, I didn't touch the subject of suicide, deciding it wasn't very important. But after checking out the "bad end" again, I'd image Hisao being far more likely to commit suicide, than Rin! I mean, she's always led an abnormal life, but to Hisao his condition is still something new. If he gets angry and bitter about the (relatively small amount of) time he wasted with Rin, he's definitely going to face bigger problems, and probably projects (or relationships) that end up being even more wasteful, in the future. Can he take it? Rin, on the other hand, would probably just keep living day-to-day the way she's always done, without much of a hitch. So, while there was the story about Nomiya and Sae's old friend, who killed himself, I don't think it matters much, because in the real world, lost of people kill themselves every day - yet it doesn't mean that someone wholly different would also do it, even if faced with similar problems and circumstances. That's why I don't really get why some claim that Rin would kill herself (in any of the scenarios presented in the game).

I half agree with you, here (more details in this thread), but I think you might underestimate the impact meeting Hisao has had on her. (On the topic of suicide, I think I'm - on balance - more optimistic than Mirrormn - definitely more optimistic in the neutral end, but slightly more pessimistic in the good end - confirm in the other link.)

On a side note, "old friend" suggests that you haven't gotten around to read some of the text in Rin's route. It's easy to get a library 100 % for Rin and still miss a lot of information, because many scenes contain alternate text for the many choices (some of which won't even show up, unless you made certain choices in other scenes). The Rin route has definitely the most complex information management system of them all.

On a sidenote, I found all your discussion about Rin having Asperger's syndrome quite funny, and - well - retarted, too. Given that aspies have trouble recognizing facial expressions (unlike Rin, who is puzzled about Hisao's apparent perpetual sad face) and don't tend to be very artistic or creative (this latter part is mainly my own experiences, so you can take it with a grain of salt, as it were) I think it's clear she isn't autistic.

In order to get a spectrum diagnosis, someone has to match a certain number of criteria. (but not all of them) That means that person 1 who exhibits telltale marks A, B, C and F and person 2 who exhibits telltale marks C, D, E and G have a similar diagnosis despite sharing nearly none of the symptoms. Some people on the spectrum can recognize facial expressions just fine and most of them can clearly see the difference between a smiling face and a sad face. Also, there's plenty of artists on the spectrum...the eye for (or obsession with) detail can help sometimes. I've also met several kids on the spectrum who were creative in other ways. Unfortunately, several of the most creative ones were also the ones who dropped out of school and spent most of the day either lying in bed or playing World of Warcraft.

So I wouldn't call the claims Rin has autistic telltale marks retarded. While I realize the word autism or asperger has become a bit of a buzzword in recent years, people love self-diagnosing to explain away social difficulties, dismissing it off the bat seems like the other extreme. Of course, whether the telltale marks related to ASD that Rin displays would be enough to diagnose her with autism, asperger or PDD-NOS is another debate altogether.

Dawnstorm wrote:

Dullfinn wrote:...I'm still not buying this. I mean, thanks for your thoughts, both of you, but the fact is, there's lots of devices one can stick to walls or the floor, and even devices that are specifically designed to be sat on, so it doesn't really make sense that Rin would have trouble masturbating, in some way. After all, in the story it is given that she can dress herself and maintain some level of personal hygiene, too. (And I definitely disagree on how old girls tend to be when they start experimenting sexually, be it by themselves or with a partner.)

I'm honestly not sure about Rin's masturbatory history, and to be honest I don't think it's that important. I don't think it needs to be a "new" experience to make sense in the context.

Truth. But still, Dullfinn, I think you're overestimating the prevalence of female masturbation; only about 60% of American females have masturbated by the age of 18 (source). Part of the reason for this is because it's difficult for girls who still live with their parents to acquire such "devices" as you mention. Although, given Rin's personality, I guess she would be much less likely than most girls to let embarrassment prevent her from asking her parents for a sex toy...

Also, after she climaxes, Rin comments to Hisao: "I am tired. It feels strange. Like I lost something. I mean something else than my marital purity." Which implies that it was her first time.

Dawnstorm wrote:

Dullfinn wrote:I think my main gripe about the scene is that Hisao just seems to bumble in there, surprising Rin. It would make more sense (or be more powerful) if Rin had invited Hisao beforehand, with something special in mind - or perhaps the complete opposite: asking him to help her from the get-go, kind of out-of-the-blue, since he happened to be there already. Now it's more in the line of "hey, since you caught me like this, would you mind finishing me off, because I don't really have any other use for you right now".

Heh, I can see why you have problems with Rin's route. It's vital characterisation that he surprises her in a very embarrassing situation. The way she reacts is utterly Rinny. One of the main aspects of Rin is the vast difference between that flat exterior and utterly chaotic emotional cauldron she has inside. She's so busy sorting her feelings that she forgets to feel them. Unless she goes with the flow. She reminds him that she asked him not to come by again, and then adapts to changed circumstances. It looks like it's no big deal for Rin, but I think that's deceptive. Part of the scene's purpose is to show how much she implicitly trusts Hisao. Remember that she - reportedly - kicked Emi when she tried to hug her. Rin not trying to evade an embarrassing situation is a big deal.

What you suggest gives Rin a level of planning she's simply not capable of in that situation. She's already overwhelmed with the situation, and planning anything is hard for her, even when she's comfortable.

To backtrack on this explanation a little bit, you first have to understand that Rin legitimately doesn't want Hisao there in the first place. Not because she doesn't enjoy his company, or even because she thinks he'll be a distraction, but because she doesn't want him to be caught up in her self-destructive spiral - perhaps because she doesn't want him to see her broken and desperate, perhaps because she thinks she'll be a bad influence on him (the ultimatum to stay away from the atelier does, after all, occur immediately after they experiment with smoking together), or perhaps because she's afraid her focus on painting and inspiration will at some point cause her to treat Hisao in a way that is damaging to their relationship (keep that in mind, as it will be important later).

So, inviting Hisao to the atelier for a sexual encounter is completely out of the question. And spontaneously deciding to initiate a sexual encounter while Hisao just happened to be there would also be impossible, because if Hisao showed up at any other time, Rin would just tell him to leave. The only way the deed gets done is if Hisao arrives when Rin is too caught up in a hormonally-altered state of mind (which Dawnstorm has explained in full) to follow her intentional plan of remaining distant from Hisao during her self-destructive period.

And, as it turns out, letting Hisao stay in Delirium leads directly to one of the situations Rin was specifically trying to avoid (the one which I italicized); because she uses him for physical pleasure, but is unwilling to make any verbal commitment to their relationship the next morning, Hisao comes believe that she doesn't really care for him romantically, and is just using him for purely selfish reasons. And that forms the basis of conflict throughout the rest of route!

Dawnstorm wrote:

Dullfinn wrote:There's also one other thing I'm not "buying": In my previous post, I didn't touch the subject of suicide, deciding it wasn't very important. But after checking out the "bad end" again, I'd image Hisao being far more likely to commit suicide, than Rin! I mean, she's always led an abnormal life, but to Hisao his condition is still something new. If he gets angry and bitter about the (relatively small amount of) time he wasted with Rin, he's definitely going to face bigger problems, and probably projects (or relationships) that end up being even more wasteful, in the future. Can he take it? Rin, on the other hand, would probably just keep living day-to-day the way she's always done, without much of a hitch. So, while there was the story about Nomiya and Sae's old friend, who killed himself, I don't think it matters much, because in the real world, lost of people kill themselves every day - yet it doesn't mean that someone wholly different would also do it, even if faced with similar problems and circumstances. That's why I don't really get why some claim that Rin would kill herself (in any of the scenarios presented in the game).

I half agree with you, here (more details in this thread), but I think you might underestimate the impact meeting Hisao has had on her. (On the topic of suicide, I think I'm - on balance - more optimistic than Mirrormn - definitely more optimistic in the neutral end, but slightly more pessimistic in the good end - confirm in the other link.)

I'm not that pessimistic about Rin in the neutral route, really. In a realistic sense, I kind of agree with Dullfinn: just because two people with similar personalities are presented with similar circumstances does not mean they will necessarily react in the same way, especially when the reaction is something so drastic as suicide. When I argue for, or speculate about, the implication of Rin's suicide after the events of the neutral ending, I'm thinking more in the context of what I believe Aura was trying to tell us through his writing than what I believe Rin would do if she were a real person.

Dawnstorm wrote:On a side note, "old friend" suggests that you haven't gotten around to read some of the text in Rin's route. It's easy to get a library 100 % for Rin and still miss a lot of information, because many scenes contain alternate text for the many choices (some of which won't even show up, unless you made certain choices in other scenes). The Rin route has definitely the most complex information management system of them all.

Absolutely. To be more specific: the scene you mention, Dullfinn, in which Nomiya and Sae recount the tale of their "old friend", actually differs slightly but significantly based on your conversation choice. Each choice gives you the same story told from a different perspective, and when you take both perspectives together, the implication of Rin's potential suicide becomes a lot clearer.

Mirrormn wrote:Also, after she climaxes, Rin comments to Hisao: "I am tired. It feels strange. Like I lost something. I mean something else than my marital purity." Which implies that it was her first time.

I interpreted that line to mean the first time she did it with a partner, not her first time masturbating.

Dawnstorm wrote:I'm honestly not sure about Rin's masturbatory history, and to be honest I don't think it's that important. I don't think it needs to be a "new" experience to make sense in the context.

I think it's absolutely vital, because...

Mirrormn wrote:after she climaxes, Rin comments to Hisao: "I am tired. It feels strange. Like I lost something. I mean something else than my marital purity." Which implies that it was her first time.

...as I wrote originally, the wording really DOES imply it was her first time. Now, this confuses me a lot. On the other hand, it would make the experience unique - which lends to it, perhaps, being helpful for her quest to get inspired, and definitely brings her and Hisao closer together, at least physically - yet, on the other hand, I find that implication highly improbable. But then again, I'm not sure where the story is supposed to take place: in realistic, modern-day Japan? Or some wacky anime universe? (Sorry if I'm dragging on this subject, it's just that sexual health is something I read about frequently. For example, I have statistics that show that only 24% of 18-year-old finnish girls are virgins anymore. Quite the contrast, eh?)

Anyway. Thank you Dawnstorm and Mirrormn again for your input. I think I understand what you are talking about. Still, I have a hard time seeing the story the way you seem to do... perhaps that can't be helped? And in the end, it's not that important, because in general I liked to story. (Actually, the only thing that saddens me, is how all these years - from the demo to the present - I though of Rin as a different, more fun kind of character.)

Dawnstorm wrote:On a side note, "old friend" suggests that you haven't gotten around to read some of the text in Rin's route. It's easy to get a library 100 % for Rin and still miss a lot of information, because many scenes contain alternate text for the many choices (some of which won't even show up, unless you made certain choices in other scenes).

Really? That sucks... I think the game should be WAY more clear about stuff like that. I wonder if it's just bad design, or something that would have required more tinkering with the engine? (I find the flowcharts somewhat confusing. They should be, at the very least, built-in, if not also more explicit...)

Guest Poster wrote:Also, there's plenty of artists on the spectrum...the eye for (or obsession with) detail can help sometimes. I've also met several kids on the spectrum who were creative in other ways. Unfortunately, several of the most creative ones were also the ones who dropped out of school and spent most of the day either lying in bed or playing World of Warcraft.

I hope I didn't offend anyone with my comments, since they were just my opinions, based on my own experiences. It's easy to spot the most extreme cases, so those are also the ones that immediately come to mind, when talking about the subject. And I've met creative aspies, too - but they are usually computer programmers, not abtract artists, heh.

Dullfinn wrote:...as I wrote originally, the wording really DOES imply it was her first time. Now, this confuses me a lot. On the other hand, it would make the experience unique - which lends to it, perhaps, being helpful for her quest to get inspired, and definitely brings her and Hisao closer together, at least physically - yet, on the other hand, I find that implication highly improbable.

...

For example, I have statistics that show that only 24% of 18-year-old finnish girls are virgins anymore. Quite the contrast, eh?

I don't see how 24% would translate to "highly improbable", especially considering Rin's disability, which would presumptively mark her as a statistical outlier.

Dullfinn wrote:Sorry if I'm dragging on this subject, it's just that sexual health is something I read about frequently.

Don't worry a bit about it. That's basically all we do on this forum: endlessly drag out debate on tiny minutiae!

Mirrormn wrote:I don't see how 24% would translate to "highly improbable", especially considering Rin's disability, which would presumptively mark her as a statistical outlier.

Well, the contrast was to your statistics. And yes, Rin is a special case - especially because she's fictional! But I don't have a hard time imagining scenarios... how about a cucumber lodged between sofa cushions? (I suppose it comes down to how she views or feels about sexuality. And that - like pretty much everything else about her - is a mystery to me.)

And this forum? Heh, I'm new here, I've only read through couple of threads, but I find it pretty exciting how much talk this KS thingie has generated. Here and elsewhere. When the game was released, it was a surprise to me - I had almost forgotten about it already. Then I felt a bit sad about how long it had been in development, "was it worth it", etc. But seeing the impact it has made on seemingly thousands of people, it really can't be considered a wasted effort. Now if only I can somehow manage to stop obsessing about it myself, heh...