Katawa Shoujo Forums

Titus wrote:...Has Hisao this ambiguous, semi-love semi-whatever relationship with her? It's not real "love" anymore, is it?

Does that mean the story ended with "we're fucked but so what Rin is happy and I'm sticking with her" ?

The concept of love in and of itself is very difficult to define. I don't think that I'm alone when I say that each of the five routes portrayed a different type of love story and by extension, five different types of "love".

Emi: High school romance that evolves into something more profound by the end.
Hanako: Love for moe girl that evolves into a love between equals.
Lilly: Honeymoon-like, idealistic love that has a decent chance of staying honeymoon-like until the day they die.
Shizune: The compassionate love that an aged married couple tends to have with only rare bouts of pure passion.

I get the feeling that Rin and Hisao are in love. From my perspective, it's the type of love that manages to exist even though the people involved have horrifically poor chemistry, but isn't that a form of love nonetheless?

Titus wrote: FFFFF-

Is it love, are they in love but just can't close the gap of understanding each other except expressing their love through intimacy using kissing and sex, am I right?

Well... yes and no. I've said most of this before in this thread, but I'll reiterate it instead of just posting quotes of myself to make the response more cohesive.

First, you have Rin. She doesn't understand herself very well, but she definitely knows she's not normal, and that bothers her ("I don't know what's wrong with me!" and other quotes from Raison d'être support this). She also doesn't understand love in many different senses: she doesn't get the difference between a friend and a girlfriend, aside from physical intimacy, and I suspect that because she is aware that she is fundamentally not normal, she is unsure if she is capable of feeling love in the traditional sense even if she did understand it.

She definitely has some feelings for Hisao, though. As she says in the good ending, she is afraid of Hisao's kindness, and doesn't know how to feel when he treats her that way. That can be interpreted as Rin experiencing a deeper feeling of love that she was previously completely unfamiliar with, and thus unable to cope with.

Hisao, on the other hand, is angry. In my first playthrough of Rin's route, I didn't really get how angry he was, because when I read through the scenes where Rin "rejects" Hisao's confession, and where she asks him to stay away from the atelier so she can paint, I understood why pretty thoroughly and forgave her for those actions immediately. Hisao doesn't understand and has a hard time forgiving. Those two rejections really take a toll on him, and he is not over them by the end of the route. This is why he's hesitant to return Rin's confession when she says she loves him in Proof of Existence.

But, like Rin, his feelings are undeniable. He reflects on how obsessed he is with Rin several times throughout the route. I think the best example is as he's comforting her in Raison d'être, and he thinks about how the gravity of Planet Rin has pulled him dangerously close.

There's still a gap between them at the end of Proof of Existence, but kissing and sex are certainly not the only ways they've been able to bridge that gap. A few notable examples where they seem to understand each other well are when Rin specifically asks to remain in Hisao's comforting embrace during Raison d'être, that being the kind of emotional closeness he desires most; when Hisao helps Rin undress and get re-dressed after she gets caught in the rain; Hisao's moment of pure white clarity at the beginning of Proof of Existence; and most of the conversations between Hisao and Rin in Raison d'être and Proof of Existence. There was also a really beautiful point that someone else made somewhere (I think it may have been on Reddit instead of these forums) that Rin is fundamentally a creature of experiences, and Hisao is fundamentally a creature of words, but in the end of Proof of Existence, Rin decides to use words to express her love for Hisao with a verbal confession, whereas Hisao decides to respond with a kiss. Thus, each of them puts their feelings in the form that is most easily understood by the other.

Now, unfortunately, there is bad news as well. Despite all this evidence of love and growing understanding between Hisao and Rin, there is a very strong case made through the text of the route that, essentially, true love is impossible. In both Raison d'être and The World Only You Can See (the neutral ending), Hisao tells Rin that it's impossible for him to truly understand her artwork, and by extension for anyone to truly understand anyone else, because the experience of life itself is just too subjective. If you transfer that fundamental impossibility of human understanding to the realm of romance, you have to conclude that it's impossible for two people to truly love each other, as well.

Whether or not that is a depressing message really depends how you look at it. Personally, I try to take Rin's view on the matter:

Rin: "But isn't that terrible?"
Hisao: "I guess it is, in a way."
Rin: "I think it might make me sad after all."
Hisao: "Yeah. I know. I wish I could do something to help it."
Rin: "It can't be helped, I think. ...but... if you say that... It makes me feel a little better."

I interpret her last statement to mean that even if "true" love is impossible, momentary love - a connection between two people that makes them feel some sort of profound happiness or comfort, even if only temporarily - is still something to be treasured.

Mirrormn wrote:I interpret her last statement to mean that even if "true" love is impossible, momentary love - a connection between two people that makes them feel some sort of profound happiness or comfort, even if only temporarily - is still something to be treasured.

...I agree. Perhaps Rin's route portrays a cynical type of romance, one that is almost sure to fail. Despite that, the relationship between Hisao and RIn is so beautiful that how could it possibly be called anything but love? When I saw this, I was convinced that it had to be love.

encrypted12345 wrote:Perhaps Rin's route portrays a cynical type of romance, one that is almost sure to fail.

Sadly, true. I think that even in Rin's good end, the prospects of them maintaining a long-term relationship are poor. You just have to appreciate their connection for what it is, for whatever time it will end up lasting. Hence the pervasive themes of time and seizing the present throughout the route.

I think one thing Hisao has failed to take in, or maybe even properly realise, is that Rin needs to keep her environments separate. And that's going to cause problems the closer graduation comes. They probably won't outlast that, as it's going to be very easy for Rin to run away. And Hisao will probably misunderstand that as "rejection". Again. (During the exhebition preparations, Rin didn't reject Hisao; she agreed to partition her life, and have a Hisao-free partition - which made life easier to handle for her. This is going to keep causing problems, if Hisao doesn't catch on.)

Forget "love". If you wish to pin Rin down on that term, you might get her to show the sort of wrongly-directed dedication she showed during the exhibition. She'll be focussed on becoming a Rin who "can love Hisao" (whatever she thinks that might entail). Hisao has learned that, I'm sure. But he's not yet clear on how she partitions her life to keep it managable.

For example, Rin never talks about her family. If their relationship should survive Yamaku, a lot depends on them - if they show up near the end, and Hisao manages to connect to them, the relationship might have a chance to go on beyond that. Hisao has to spread out into non-Yamaku Rin. Rin herself is probably not going to make any effort. I don't see her work like that. And I'm not sure Hisao has enough time left to figure that out.

Mirrormn wrote:

encrypted12345 wrote:Perhaps Rin's route portrays a cynical type of romance, one that is almost sure to fail.

Sadly, true. I think that even in Rin's good end, the prospects of them maintaining a long-term relationship are poor. You just have to appreciate their connection for what it is, for whatever time it will end up lasting. Hence the pervasive themes of time and seizing the present throughout the route.

On the other hand, because they've accepted this, I feel they actually have good prospects in the longer term. I've seen a lot of relationship fails because one (or both) partner put idealistic faery-tale-love expectation on the relationship. Someone like Hisao at the end of Rin route, going for it while accepting they'll never understand each-other fully, could be better prepared to make it last.

gecko wrote:On the other hand, because they've accepted this, I feel they actually have good prospects in the longer term. I've seen a lot of relationship fails because one (or both) partner put idealistic faery-tale-love expectation on the relationship. Someone like Hisao at the end of Rin route, going for it while accepting they'll never understand each-other fully, could be better prepared to make it last.

This. The Rin/Hisao relationship at the end of her good end has better prospects than any other in the game for exactly this reason -- they have both accepted one another for who they are and left the need to understand one another, or to force the other to conform to their ideals, behind. This is not a bad sign. Instead, it is the only way adult relationships survive in the real world.

gecko wrote:

Mirrormn wrote:

encrypted12345 wrote:Perhaps Rin's route portrays a cynical type of romance, one that is almost sure to fail.

Sadly, true. I think that even in Rin's good end, the prospects of them maintaining a long-term relationship are poor. You just have to appreciate their connection for what it is, for whatever time it will end up lasting. Hence the pervasive themes of time and seizing the present throughout the route.

On the other hand, because they've accepted this, I feel they actually have good prospects in the longer term. I've seen a lot of relationship fails because one (or both) partner put idealistic faery-tale-love expectation on the relationship. Someone like Hisao at the end of Rin route, going for it while accepting they'll never understand each-other fully, could be better prepared to make it last.

I'm going to partially agree with you here. While their relationship will still be tough, they have jumped the big hurdle by understanding exactly what their relationship is (Hisao especially) and so the rest of their journey should be easier. There could be a break up, but I think that because they know how their relationship is going to go that it would be a lot easier for them.

How optimistic of you all, to see such strength in the weakness of their understanding. And how can I really argue, seeing how happy Rin is on her rock at the end of Proof of Existence.

I just finished Rin's arc for the second time with a good ending, having the Act 3bad ending the first time.

I just don't know how to feel about it. I don't.

Maybe it's because Emi was my first arc. She was a very good first play through, the choices felt very natural, she was likable and the story very nice and concrete (at least here issues are, compared to Rin's). Starting with Rin afterwards because I felt intrigued with her was like running into a brick wall.

I just felt so desperate all the time on the first try. I constantly felt like I was making bad choices and like I couldn't really foresee my actions. Maybe because I'm an art student myself, a lot of the times it felt like I rejected some choices based on my own opinion of art, and those had very unfortunate consequences.
For example, in the very first choice I picked "You're awesome" instead of "I want to be like you", since from my perspective the latter is an inane thing to say about art. Just like Rin replies when you do pick that route, you'd have to be her to paint like her, and to be like some else isn't even the objective of becoming an artist. But no, apparently that gives you a huge minus for the rest of the act. Well maybe for some who's starting out in art that's the more logical and ambitious choice. On that same topic, I also felt that the art teachers behavior was completely lacking of any understanding of art, or that it means to make art. Just rambling about exhibitions and who you know and whatever other useless comments he made.
Some other choices also felt void of logic, and, like someone commented, you only really find out the logic behind each answer after you pick it. In the very last choice I picked "explain it" because I felt it was more positive to encourage Rin to speak for herself than to have her say something because I "need to understand", which is a selfish thing to say imho. But no, once again my failed logic trapped me in a status of loneliness as I watched the credits roll by.

The second time I made some use of flowcharts, but unfortunately that robs me of a lot of the experience of making my own choices and feeling my own affect on the story (which for me is a huge factor in the enjoyment of this game). It also made me care less since I already knew how I had to act. I did get the good ending, but it just didn't feel as honest as when I was desperately overthinking my choices the first time, and I think much of the effect was lost on me due to that.

I guess I felt that even the good ending was not good/satisfactory enough to make up for how bad I felt the first time around or something. Or maybe it was that way in which Hisao kept pointing out how they would never be close/understand eachother that made it feel so unnatural that they'd have a good ending. Maybe I wished he could have changed just a little bit more, to have them be just a little bit closer. Also, the "turning point" felt somehow unnatural. They don't speak for days, Rin just shows up all of a sudden, they have sex and that somehow solves their problems? Or makes them acceptable? Or what? I would think it'd rather underline their distance. It was also very abrupt, just a few scenes from the end I was still pondering weather this was really the good ending or not, and then BAAM. I would have preferred a slower buildup of some sort instead.

Maybe I'm just not a Rin kind of person...

By the way, am I the only one who expected some kind of ashikoki action? Seemed like the perfect arc.

momiji wrote: Maybe it's because Emi was my first arc. She was a very good first play through, the choices felt very natural, she was likable and the story very nice and concrete (at least here issues are, compared to Rin's). Starting with Rin afterwards because I felt intrigued with her was like running into a brick wall.

True. Since Emi and Rin are so different, I thought it made sense that their routes would be so different. The radical difference between them is not the type of thing you see in visual novels though.

momiji wrote:In the very last choice I picked "explain it" because I felt it was more positive to encourage Rin to speak for herself than to have her say something because I "need to understand", which is a selfish thing to say imho. But no, once again my failed logic trapped me in a status of loneliness as I watched the credits roll by.

Saying "then explain" puts pressure on Rin to explain her bizarre thought process while saying "I need to understand" puts pressure on Hisao to understand Rin. Rin is stressed out as it is, so putting extra stress on her will naturally cause their relationship to shatter.

momiji wrote:I guess I felt that even the good ending was not good/satisfactory enough to make up for how bad I felt the first time around or something. Or maybe it was that way in which Hisao kept pointing out how they would never be close/understand eachother that made it feel so unnatural that they'd have a good ending. Maybe I wished he could have changed just a little bit more, to have them be just a little bit closer.

True, their chemistry is HORRIFICALLY AWFUL especially when compared to Emi and Hisao's chemistry. I thought that they did it believably though. Hisao and Rin both kept fighting in their own ways to keep their relationship going and were rewarded for their determination. Even though there is still undeniably a massive gap between them, as long as they seize the day, there is hope. However, even if the love was doomed to fail, the love that they have now is still beautiful. Thus the emphasis on the present that is stated near the end.

momiji wrote:By the way, am I the only one who expected some kind of ashikoki action? Seemed like the perfect arc.

I wish it had that, too.

encrypted12345 wrote:

momiji wrote:I guess I felt that even the good ending was not good/satisfactory enough to make up for how bad I felt the first time around or something. Or maybe it was that way in which Hisao kept pointing out how they would never be close/understand eachother that made it feel so unnatural that they'd have a good ending. Maybe I wished he could have changed just a little bit more, to have them be just a little bit closer.

True, their chemistry is HORRIFICALLY AWFUL especially when compared to Emi and Hisao's chemistry. I thought that they did it believably though. Hisao and Rin both kept fighting in their own ways to keep their relationship going and were rewarded for their determination. Even though there is still undeniably a massive gap between them, as long as they seize the day, there is hope. However, even if the love was doomed to fail, the love that they have now is still beautiful. Thus the emphasis on the present that is stated near the end.

I guess I'm more similar to Rin in this aspect, because I have some great difficulties bridging the gap to other people. I would probably not have cared for someone like Hisao who went on and on about how complicated I was and how noone understands me. In my relationships it's the opposite, I go on and on about how crazy and impossible to understand I am, my boyfriend just shrugs and doesn't know what I'm talking about.

I dunno, I'm no expert on relationships, nothing close.
but despite the wall between them and the frustration, despair and anger caused by it,
Hisao has shown that he still stayed with her even after things got to their worst
or when they had to accept that definite understanding is impossible.
Surely, their future probably hold many hardships,
but they've both already shown the ability to get through them.
They've both had to accept who they are and what will never be,
even if they can just find solace in precious moments of the present,
even if they have no answer when faced with an uncertain future,
does that really mean that they can't face it?
After all, they've already shown that they can despite the uncertainty, at least in my eyes.

though truly appreciating the precious moments of the present might be enough,
no matter how long, or how short, those moments last.


Moreso than any other route, I personally think that Rin's show the determination to trump hardships
and the simple, pure wish of just being together over everything.

im on Act 2, imo Hisao is being a big jerk trying to get into Rin's pants when its obvious that she's troubled...anywayz had to save cause this was clearly going in a NSFW direction, will continue this evening

Anyways Rin seems a verrry interesting character, even if I dont understand her paintings. I have no idea why people would choose Emi over her, unless they like awkward butt sex

I've finished all the paths and I've been wondering, do we ever find out how Rin lost her arms? I don't seem to remember reading about it anywhere. I suppose she was born that way?

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