Katawa Shoujo Forums

nemz wrote:

ravenlord wrote:The chess scene was pretty brutal, because it came after the Hanako arc. I was more depressed and disappointed than angry, because I realized at that point that Shizunehad a severe lack of empathy. In my mind that's a worse handicap than being deaf or blind. Also before that point my feelings were tied with Shizune and Hanako, and that incident permanently put Shizune to number 2 in my book, and nearly pushed her below Lilly for number 3.

Ironic, since all she's doing is treating Hanako like she treats everyone else, pushing her to her limits without any hint of kid gloves... exactly what Hanako says she wants from others. Shizune is actually showing her more respect than Lilly and Hisao usually do.

Depends on the treatment. If there is something less than desirable going on, then there is no merit in being "equally" treated so. The best takeaway from that is "yeh, so I steamrolled right over you and your feelings. But don't take it personally, because I blow past everyone that way." I can't see anyone walking away with the pride that "Shizune just crushed me like she crushes everyone else. Cool."

You can either take a defeat in a competition like that as a bad loser, and stomp your feet declaring the game is stupid and you hate it... or you can learn from your loss and try to become better.

Shizune doesn't hold back because she enjoys the challenge and wants people to be the best they can.

Ever try and play one of your parents at a video game? If they were like my parents, some games they'd excel at but others they'd just not be able to compete. How did you handle it? Did you absolutely thrash them or did you deliberately fail to spare their feelings? If they had been genuinely interested in playing that particular game, you shouldn't have to take it too easy on them as they'll be interested in continuing regardless.

There's no honour in slaughter but giving up before you're taken the time to learn the rules and get some practice isn't much better.

metalangel wrote:You can either take a defeat in a competition like that as a bad loser, and stomp your feet declaring the game is stupid and you hate it... or you can learn from your loss and try to become better.

Shizune doesn't hold back because she enjoys the challenge and wants people to be the best they can.

Ever try and play one of your parents at a video game? If they were like my parents, some games they'd excel at but others they'd just not be able to compete. How did you handle it? Did you absolutely thrash them or did you deliberately fail to spare their feelings? If they had been genuinely interested in playing that particular game, you shouldn't have to take it too easy on them as they'll be interested in continuing regardless.

There's no honour in slaughter but giving up before you're taken the time to learn the rules and get some practice isn't much better.

Depends on the motivation behind the game.

I'm a tournament chess player (1850 USCF) so I can slaughter 90% of the human population in a game. 5% can go with me toe to toe, and 5% can beat me as easily as I can be the other 90%.

I would run out of friends who play with me if I simply wiped the floor with them every time I play them. At a tournament I play for blood, win or lose. But in casual settings I play for fun, enjoying the journey of the game and the experience of having the other person around. In that setting, chess isn't the goal. Chess is simply the medium for an interpersonal experience. Chess, and games in general are just tools, and if you take them too seriously then you end up missing the real goal of the game in that setting, like missing the forrest for the trees. Are you looking for a win, or you looking for an excuse to hang out with someone for a little while?

Or she could say "Hey, Shizune just treated me like a normal person, spent time with me doing something I enjoy, and showed me an area of my game where I have room to improve. She's actually kind of nice in her own way."

nemz wrote:Or she could say "Hey, Shizune just treated me like a normal person, spent time with me doing something I enjoy, and showed me an area of my game where I have room to improve. She's actually kind of nice in her own way."

And then she could ride off to Jupiter on her magical talking unicorn.

Or, you know, if Shizune had the slightest bit of human empathy, you could have remembered that for the past several years, Hanako has had trouble interacting with anyone, and that playing chess was Hanako's way of reaching out, so maybe, just maybe, Shizune should try to connect with her or at the very least take it easy on her rather than trying to stomp her into the ground.

But no. Rather than trying to interact with a person that has very obvious trouble interacting with others, she'd rather try to stomp her at a game. Sending the message "Even when it comes to the things you like you're not good enough," is the perfect way to handle people that have self esteem issues.

nemz wrote:Or she could say "Hey, Shizune just treated me like a normal person, spent time with me doing something I enjoy, and showed me an area of my game where I have room to improve. She's actually kind of nice in her own way."

She could say that, though it would come across as seriously sarcastic.

Shizune has a reputation at school (and even within her family), and it is not of an altruistic, kind, Mother Teresa type figure. She has her strong points, but that is not one of them

Oddball wrote: So, just being curious, what do you think of their two big scenes together, the chess game and Hanako's break down in class?

As I'm the person you're quoting to...

It just shows how different the three of them are, really.

The break down was only sparked by Misha inadvertently bringing up the topic of Hanako's birthday; her behavior before that, gentle teasing, was justMisha and Shizune being themselves. They mostly backed off when Hisao asked them to, as well. And when Hanako broke down, they were apologetic and perfectly willing to help as needed, though they didn't baby her or anything.
Thechess scene was a bit harsher on Hanako, but that was just Shizune being herself, again. Shizune doesn't seem like the type of person to pretend she's different than she is, for anyone. She was aggressively competitive (as normal), and as someone else here has said, she didn't treat Hanako any differently than if it had been anyone else in there. Except maybe Lilly. Which is, in some ways, what Hanako actually wants people to treat her like.
I don't see Shizune or Misha in either situation trying to upset her; all three of them are just being themselves.

Not sure what else to think about the scenes

Oddball wrote:Or, you know, if Shizune had the slightest bit of human empathy, you could have remembered that for the past several years, Hanako has had trouble interacting with anyone, and that playing chess was Hanako's way of reaching out, so maybe, just maybe, Shizune should try to connect with her or at the very least take it easy on her rather than trying to stomp her into the ground.

But no. Rather than trying to interact with a person that has very obvious trouble interacting with others, she'd rather try to stomp her at a game. Sending the message "Even when it comes to the things you like you're not good enough," is the perfect way to handle people that have self esteem issues.

I dunno. From what I gathered of her personality, Shizune would see it as a greater insult if she took it easy on Hanako rather than went all out. "You're not good enough for me to treat you as an equal."

Is it the wrong approach to take in this case? Very likely... but people in general seem to have a tough time seeing things from a perspective that isn't their own.

But she didn't stomp her until the one game after they changed the rules. Before that they were trading wins, so they can't have been on that different of a playing level. Are you in the habit of going easy on people who can and have beaten you recently?

Besides, that's just how chess is. Sometimes making one critical oversight leads to a snowball effect, enabling your opponent able to dance through your ranks and kill piece after piece with impunity because a critical link in your defense network was broken.

Oh, and of course - I should mention that Shizune, in particular, at this point in time, seems to have very little experience with how other people's reactions to situations differ from hers. It kind of helps set up the major conflict in her arc, and can result into her falling into her depression in the bad ending.

Guest wrote:

Oddball wrote:Or, you know, if Shizune had the slightest bit of human empathy, you could have remembered that for the past several years, Hanako has had trouble interacting with anyone, and that playing chess was Hanako's way of reaching out, so maybe, just maybe, Shizune should try to connect with her or at the very least take it easy on her rather than trying to stomp her into the ground.

But no. Rather than trying to interact with a person that has very obvious trouble interacting with others, she'd rather try to stomp her at a game. Sending the message "Even when it comes to the things you like you're not good enough," is the perfect way to handle people that have self esteem issues.

I dunno. From what I gathered of her personality, Shizune would see it as a greater insult if she took it easy on Hanako rather than went all out. "You're not good enough for me to treat you as an equal."

Is it the wrong approach to take in this case? Very likely... but people in general seem to have a tough time seeing things from a perspective that isn't their own.

I'll agree with that. It's one of the very core problems Shizune has. She simply doesn't seem to get that trying to push people to their limits isn't the way lots of people want to be handled.

Heh. Shizune = Courage Wolf

ravenlord wrote: Depends on the motivation behind the game.

It's a tangent, but that's a problem with far too many multiplayer games online these days. It's all about letting you have a swift, crushing victory as opposed to fighting an extended battle where victory isn't determined by whoever fired the first shot.

Perhaps I was extreme with my example, but the reasoning behind it stands: Shizune wants to encourage people to tax their resources, to be challenged, because that's how they'll learn: faced with a diffcult situation you have to either go for it or just fall apart and be crushed. From her game with Hanako it sounds like Hanako did okay but didn't dig her heels in when the push came. Conversely, Hisao went for a daring, risky (if you'll pardon me) strategy in Risk and impressed Shizune a LOT... I think she came away from it feeling pleased with herself for having judged his underlying character and strength well (underneath the mopey exterior) as well as having more respect for him.

Returning to my tangent for just one last time before it needs to die: the problem with the swift crushing victories like this is it all happens so quickly there's very little time in the conflict before it's over. Think of how, when you have a really good game against someone, regardless... it's incredibly exciting and satisfying, and you're proud to shake their hand (or, online, send them a congratulatory message) even when you lose, because they were a skilled and worthy opponent. A modern game like Battlefield or CoD all too often has an unseen sniper or camper blowing your head off with one shot. Then, to cap it off, too many games rub your face in it: Brickforce plays infuriating laughter, BF3 forces you to look at your opponent's grimacing face for four seconds while they bunnyhop around the map... it's not about respect for one's foe, it all about (in the words of the most popular dogtag in BF3), "punishing noobs".

Shizune wants to encourage people to tax their resources, to be challenged, because that's how they'll learn: faced with a diffcult situation you have to either go for it or just fall apart and be crushed.

What she doesn't grasp here is that just interacting with another person is taxing Hanako's resources. Hanako is pushing herself just to be able to play a game with her. Playing games is one of the few things Hanako does that she can enjoy and almost feel like a normal person doing.

What happens here is that Hanako goes for it and then Shizune reaches out and changes the rules so she can crush her anyway.

Yeah, but Hanako agreed to the rules change. She could have said no. It should have been obvious what was going to happen since she was obviously taking much longer to move than Shizune was earlier, even to the point where Hisao felt the need to comment on it.