Katawa Shoujo Forums

Pyramid Head wrote:

Not to rain on your parade but with how high the website ranked Clannad which is very poorly written as far as the actual drama is concerned, the praise is hollow. It's like bringing up how highly Half-Life 2 was praised by a website that called Modern Warfare 3 very good. Of course i'm a video game expert, and visual novels very rarely count as video games, so maybe i just haven't had enough exposure to realize Clannad is sitting on a garbage throne because good items in that particular medium are scarce. After all, outside of this one, Clannad, and Analogue: A Hate Story, i've had very little exposure to visual novels so maybe i just haven't been traumatized enough to crawl to Clannad like an abused child to a priest.
Or an abused child to a different priest depending on your starting religion.

Calling yourself an expert doesn't really do your credibility any good.
Before you "pass judgment" on Clannad, let me ask you this.
Did you read upto the end of After Story?

acewing905 wrote:

Pyramid Head wrote:

Not to rain on your parade but with how high the website ranked Clannad which is very poorly written as far as the actual drama is concerned, the praise is hollow. It's like bringing up how highly Half-Life 2 was praised by a website that called Modern Warfare 3 very good. Of course i'm a video game expert, and visual novels very rarely count as video games, so maybe i just haven't had enough exposure to realize Clannad is sitting on a garbage throne because good items in that particular medium are scarce. After all, outside of this one, Clannad, and Analogue: A Hate Story, i've had very little exposure to visual novels so maybe i just haven't been traumatized enough to crawl to Clannad like an abused child to a priest.
Or an abused child to a different priest depending on your starting religion.

Calling yourself an expert doesn't really do your credibility any good.
Before you "pass judgment" on Clannad, let me ask you this.
Did you read upto the end of After Story?

That's actually one of the big reasons i hate the Clannad expansions, i do know what happens in the end of After Stories. I actually kind of liked Tomoya and thought that if Nagisa was just the annoying best friend alongside Sunohara it could have been decent, but instead we've got a bullshit magical element Nagisa as the person Tomoya chooses, and it just really pisses me off how stupid things get from there.
...except maybe i should be kinder to it because there is an alternate version called Tomoyo After which i haven't been able to track down beyond a spin-off manga, and let me tell you that it is offensively stupid in the way it handles the characters. Still, for the sake of argument, i didn't read to the end of After Stories but already know what happens in the endings. Why?

Pyramid Head wrote: That's actually one of the big reasons i hate the Clannad expansions, i do know what happens in the end of After Stories. I actually kind of liked Tomoya and thought that if Nagisa was just the annoying best friend alongside Sunohara it could have been decent, but instead we've got a bullshit magical element Nagisa as the person Tomoya chooses, and it just really pisses me off how stupid things get from there.
...except maybe i should be kinder to it because there is an alternate version called Tomoyo After which i haven't been able to track down beyond a spin-off manga, and let me tell you that it is offensively stupid in the way it handles the characters. Still, for the sake of argument, i didn't read to the end of After Stories but already know what happens in the endings. Why?

Apparently, Tomoyo After is crap. Most people agree with that, so let's leave that.
I asked about After Story because people who have given Clannad high ratings have done so because of After Story. If you know only the ending, you won't really get it. Clannad After Story (Eg: When Ushio dies in the "normal" end just after telling her father that she loves him. (Anyone who is planning on reading/watching Clannad, don't read this spoiler)) can make many readers feel really emotional. "Feels", if you will. Mind you, I myself have only watched the anime of After Story, because the VN needed a walkthrough to unlock the "true end", and that's something that breaks immersion for me. But the VN is much better (comparing the first Clannad anime to the first part of the VN, which I read), so I can understand why it got so many high ratings.
In short, you can't judge it because you haven't experienced it. At least watch the anime (both Clannad and Clannad After Story) before judging it.

acewing905 wrote:

Pyramid Head wrote: That's actually one of the big reasons i hate the Clannad expansions, i do know what happens in the end of After Stories. I actually kind of liked Tomoya and thought that if Nagisa was just the annoying best friend alongside Sunohara it could have been decent, but instead we've got a bullshit magical element Nagisa as the person Tomoya chooses, and it just really pisses me off how stupid things get from there.
...except maybe i should be kinder to it because there is an alternate version called Tomoyo After which i haven't been able to track down beyond a spin-off manga, and let me tell you that it is offensively stupid in the way it handles the characters. Still, for the sake of argument, i didn't read to the end of After Stories but already know what happens in the endings. Why?

Apparently, Tomoyo After is crap. Most people agree with that, so let's leave that.
I asked about After Story because people who have given Clannad high ratings have done so because of After Story. If you know only the ending, you won't really get it. Clannad After Story (Eg: When Ushio dies in the "normal" end just after telling her father that she loves him. (Anyone who is planning on reading/watching Clannad, don't read this spoiler)) can make many readers feel really emotional. "Feels", if you will. Mind you, I myself have only watched the anime of After Story, because the VN needed a walkthrough to unlock the "true end", and that's something that breaks immersion for me. But the VN is much better (comparing the first Clannad anime to the first part of the VN, which I read), so I can understand why it got so many high ratings.
In short, you can't judge it because you haven't experienced it. At least watch the anime (both Clannad and Clannad After Story) before judging it.

Yeah, i'm going to have to disagree with you there. If Ushio's death was a random tragedy and you had some control over whether or not the loss of his family would push Tomoya over the edge or if he'd recover from it would work, but the supernatural element that allows you to alter history so that neither Nagisa or Ushio get sick and just implying Tomoya dies right there in the snow is stupid to me. In my opinion supernatural elements like that are the crutch of bad writers who can't do human drama well enough, and i see multiple signs pointing that way when you notice how one dimensional some of the side characters are. I suppose we can agree to disagree since i've certainly seen worse than Clannad, but i don't want to think something that contrived and forced is really the best visual novels can come up with.
But maybe we can agree on Tomoyo After. In a mark of beating a dead horse, the initial ending of Tomoyo After has Tomoya dying during a failed operation on a brain tumor he has, though completing some shoehorned in dungeon crawl minigames will unlock a different ending where Tomoya survives the operation. There are so many points that just make me want to scream when they drop the bomb of Tomoya's tumor on the audience, first of all being an amnesia subplot which is almost a godfather to almost all cliches at this stage, the second part being Tomoya gets in fights even though he has this brain tumor meaning any blow to the head could kill him, and lastly the fact that Tomoya's death by default is detremental to the bullshit true love theme the novel seems to possess. I haven't checked out the visual novel, but for now just take my word for it that the manga spin-off is horrible.

Anyway if we're continuing this discussion past this point we might want to switch over to PMs.

Pyramid Head wrote:If Ushio's death was a random tragedy and you had some control over whether or not the loss of his family would push Tomoya over the edge or if he'd recover from it would work, but the supernatural element that allows you to alter history so that neither Nagisa or Ushio get sick and just implying Tomoya dies right there in the snow is stupid to me.

You didn't understand what I meant at all. Happens when you're spoiled before you get to that point. Note that a reader does NOT know of the supernatural elements when the deaths happen. Which is why that part is emotional. By the end, a happy ending is really really welcome. And how that happy ending happens will not make much sense to someone who hasn't done a few routes upto their good ends in the VN. Of course, the lights themselves are pretty much KEYmagic (a staple for KEY VNs, which is arguably one of their weak points), but that does not reduce the emotional impact of stuff that happens before at all. Just that you won't have that impact in the first place if you're spoiled.
I'll just stop it at that. I can't discuss the nature of the story with someone who doesn't really know the story and is just going by spoilers, so no need of discussing via PM anyway.

I loved this game, and I usually hate VNs like School Days and Mass Effect. I think you'll like it.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend going after the bad/neutral endings on purpose. For most of the path it's the same as the good ending, only something takes a turn for the worse pretty late. And since I'd become attached to the characters, it kind of made me feel like crap to purposefully put them into these bad situations just to check off a few boxes and unlock a few images.

ravenlord wrote:Take the feels and embrace them, and channel them into something constructive and positive.

Many people have taken up running, reading, new classes, music, etc. Basically think about something that you've wanted to do before but never had the courage or motivation to follow through on. Use the feels to grab your project by the horns and make it your own. Make your girl proud as you move forward and improve yourself. Success breeds success, and pretty soon you will find the now inner you ding things that you never dared to dream about. That's the real power of KS

This I can get totally behind, and it's something I've started doing myself. Usually when I get too into a fiction I just get over it, but in this case I'm using it as motivation to better myself. I looked at what these characters accomplish and the "doing things you can't do, just because you can" theme, and wondered what my excuse was for not doing.

Supersona wrote:VNs like School Days and Mass Effect

Supersona wrote:VNs like Mass Effect

Supersona wrote:Mass Effect

Huuh? Even School Days is pretty much borderline in the is-it-a-visual-novel debate, but Mass Effect? Not even stuff like Indigo Prophecy or Heavy Rain that have very little gameplay are considered visual novels. Are you perhaps taking a cheap jab at the ME series like all those elitist idiots that say "Mass Effect is a movie"?

acewing905 wrote:

Supersona wrote:VNs like School Days and Mass Effect

Supersona wrote:VNs like Mass Effect

Supersona wrote:Mass Effect

Huuh? Even School Days is pretty much borderline in the is-it-a-visual-novel debate, but Mass Effect? Not even stuff like Indigo Prophecy or Heavy Rain that have very little gameplay are considered visual novels. Are you perhaps taking a cheap jab at the ME series like all those elitist idiots that say "Mass Effect is a movie"?

School Days is definitely a VN. I've never seen anyone consider it borderline anything.

And Mass Effect is totally a visual novel. Incidentally, Twin Peaks is an anime.

Nekken wrote: [*]Lilly has three endings, but they're structured in a strange way. Even behind spoiler tags, wild horses could not drag this one out of me.

Huh? Lilly has only two endings. And they're structured in a very straightforward manner. The good end is pretty much an extension to the bad end.

well you could go for the bad/neutral endings now if you would like, but it really is up to your preference.
some say they go for the bad endings first, so they can end on a high note with the good ending.
some say go for bad endings last, because the "first" ending for them feels more real.
some say just go play the game and take whatever ending comes first.

also, go for other routes once you feel like you dont mind Emi not being a part of their story (except Rin's, but obviously she only has a minor part) and don't feel like you're "betraying" her by doing another route. people favor Hanako's route this tends to happen.

overall i would say eventually go for all the endings, because each ending shows a different part of the character, even if the good ending is the one that's technically "canon" (at least i think so, in a multiple path game who can say what's canon?)

yummines wrote:well you could go for the bad/neutral endings now if you would like, but it really is up to your preference.
some say they go for the bad endings first, so they can end on a high note with the good ending.
some say go for bad endings last, because the "first" ending for them feels more real.
some say just go play the game and take whatever ending comes first.

also, go for other routes once you feel like you dont mind Emi not being a part of their story (except Rin's, but obviously she only has a minor part) and don't feel like you're "betraying" her by doing another route. people favor Hanako's route this tends to happen.

overall i would say eventually go for all the endings, because each ending shows a different part of the character, even if the good ending is the one that's technically "canon" (at least i think so, in a multiple path game who can say what's canon?)

I think I'm probably going to wait for a while longer and then try and jump in blind in regards to what girl I want to pick next, but maybe try to go for the manly picnic since it sounds like it's pretty comedic rather than emotional. I'm also thinking about doing my next route a little tipsy-mildly drunk to see if it increases the emotion.

I like to think in a game like this, each player can decide what they want to be the "canon" path.

Pyramid Head wrote:

ravenlord wrote:
As far as KS, it ranks very highly there: http://vndb.org/v945

Out of over 10,000 games, it is ranked #17 -- not too shabby!

Not to rain on your parade but with how high the website ranked Clannad which is very poorly written as far as the actual drama is concerned, the praise is hollow.

Data doesn't lie. 17 out of 10417 makes it more popular than 99.83% of the other VNs out there. And the 1611 votes makes it statistically significant. That speaks for itself.

What you have is an opinion, which is something that anyone can pull out of the air. If you want to discuss the significance of the rankings at VNDB, then come with some facts and numbers. Whether or not you "like" Clannad has zero bearing on the VNDB rankings.

How is Mass Effect a VN in any sense of the term?

As for whether you'd like/be disappointed in KS compared to any other VN...

I can't be the judge of that, I'm afraid. I tend to try new authors or companies only very rarely (and I'm not really sure why, I just get really hesitant to do so), and I only tried this one VN after I'd heard of its unique storyline and background, around the time of the Act 1 release. All this time later and it's still the only VN I've tried. Which is odd, as it's a genre I should have more interest in... but, ah well.

If you come into the game looking for "cripple porn" to "fap to", you will be disappointed. For a few seconds. Then the "feels" will hit, and your mileage varies from there.

I didn't come to Act 1 or the full release expecting that (such games tend to be very... blunt... about being porn games) but expecting an intriguing set of romantic storylines between a semi-playable protagonist and several potential girlfriends at his new school, all with the disability angle mixed in. More than anything, it was the fact that it was in a setting for the disabled that intrigued me. I'm not, myself, but neither have I been close to or even really known someone who is, so I was... curious, perhaps? Like any other human, I can tend to judge someone based on their appearance or whatever, though I seem to ignore and even forget details as I get to know them better simply for who they are. I actually find an incident from my early teen years amusing; the first time I met a lesbian couple (parents of a friend of mine) I actually forgot they were lesbians for a period of time. I understand this ... isn't really typical of most teenage guys. So, basically, I suppose I was curious to see if these guys at 4LS could pull that effect off - write disabled people as people, not as walking disabilities. And I'll admit there were times as the VN progressed that I'd almost forget that the characters were disabled. Obviously you remember if someone is blind, or missing arms, or whatever, but it stops being important, or relevant.
In the end, I was more than pleased with how 4LS wrote their characters. Even Kenji, who shows his hidden sanity at rare times.
What was surprising was the emotional effect that KS left me with, but the last year was one of major emotional turmoil for me in any case - I wouldn't be able to say how it would have affected me if I were in a "normal" state of mind.

I would most certainly give a recommendation of KS to you - I can't say for sure whether it would leave you disappointed or not, but I would not expect it to.

Hey.

People.

It's called a "joke".

You should try it some time.