Katawa Shoujo Forums

Titus wrote:Was being scared of his kindness, was that something like the "change"? That it made Rin like Hisao more than just a friend?

Sort of. The problem with kindness is that kind people want to do things for you, which they can't if they don't understand you. Basically, Rin is Schrödinger's lover. Being observed collapses her indeterminacy into a single state; and there are a lot more unpleasant states than pleasant ones. That's scary.

For example, if Hisao cheats on Rin with Emi, he would feel guilty for that. And then Rin would feel inadequate for not being angry enough to make forgiveness meaningful, but Hisao needs forgiveness to move on. And while Rin's still trying to figure out how she feels about that, Hisao would go down in a spiral of guilt and despair, interrupting Rin's thoughts and confusing them even more. All because she matters to him as a person with her own wants and needs (however undefined those wants and needs might be).

Basically, whenever you need to know what Rin wants, what she really wants is the peace of mind you're about to disturb with that question. And that's why kindness is scary.

Thank you: Daitengu, Mirrormn, and Dawnstorm !

I read your responses over several times and pieced it together. After re-reading Shizune's route before I found the thread discussion exhausted me, at least now I have a cheat sheet

...and...the kiss attempt that was rejected by Hisao, I'll take that as Rin's "confession" or acceptance to Hisao's feelings towards her?

And Hisao got angry at that moment because he thought she was just using him again? To be honest that scene dumbfounded me, the last thing Rin said to him when Hisao said he was leaving was "that's fine". What the fuck, Rin?

Titus wrote:Thank you: Daitengu, Mirrormn, and Dawnstorm !

I read your responses over several times and pieced it together. After re-reading Shizune's route before I found the thread discussion exhausted me, at least now I have a cheat sheet

...and...the kiss attempt that was rejected by Hisao, I'll take that as Rin's "confession" or acceptance to Hisao's feelings towards her?

And Hisao got angry at that moment because he thought she was just using him again? To be honest that scene dumbfounded me, the last thing Rin said to him when Hisao said he was leaving was "that's fine". What the fuck, Rin?

With Rin, it could mean several things lol.

I imagine Rin's mind is something like this:



___________________________________

Emotion

___________________________________
- -- -- - - - --- - --- -- - - - - --- - - - --
___________________________________

Self

____________________________________
------------- - ------------------- -----------
____________________________________

Thought

___________________________________




Mmmm, describing it in words.... There's her acting(as in action/doing) self, her emotions, and her thoughts. Her thoughts and emotions are segregated from her acting self by fog. While her thoughts are easy enough to figure out if they are lightbulbs, her emotions are clouds, and cloud watching while in fog is... hard.

She probably just accepts whatever happens at face value because understanding comes slow and hard if it has to be defined. She may get some abstract notion that what she did was wrong, but figuring out the fine detail is difficult. Even if she knows exactly what the problem is, by focusing her thoughts on it, she's still confused emotionally. When you don't know what you feel you tend to not show emotion or you show it in odd ways. At least that's how it is for me.


I wonder if that makes sense...

Titus wrote:Thank you: Daitengu, Mirrormn, and Dawnstorm !

I read your responses over several times and pieced it together. After re-reading Shizune's route before I found the thread discussion exhausted me, at least now I have a cheat sheet

...and...the kiss attempt that was rejected by Hisao, I'll take that as Rin's "confession" or acceptance to Hisao's feelings towards her?

And Hisao got angry at that moment because he thought she was just using him again? To be honest that scene dumbfounded me, the last thing Rin said to him when Hisao said he was leaving was "that's fine". What the fuck, Rin?

If I recall correctly, this kiss attempt occurs after Rin decides she is finished painting for her exhibition, but before the exhibition actually occurs. Yes, I would say that that act is essentially Rin's idea of returning the confession she received from Hisao. However, she still doesn't really get the concept of a relationship beyond the physical (and maybe the superficially social) aspects. So at that point, she's basically trying to say "I'm finished focusing on painting; now I have time for us to be physically intimate". It's not really a confession of love, per se - I don't think Rin really understands the deeper connotations of love (specifically, the unrequited kindness and comfort that Hisao gives her that she is "afraid" of) until very near the end of the route - but she is comfortable enough with Hisao that she's willing to accept a relationship with him. She does this not because she inherently wants/believes in/understands the socially traditional boyfriend/girlfriend dynamic, but because she thinks that's what Hisao wants, and she does want to make him happy, partly because she simply likes him in the first place, and partly because she feels guilty for pushing him aside while painting. So, she tries to move the relationship forward in the way she thinks is "expected": by kissing Hisao.

Unfortunately, that's not what Hisao is looking for in a relationship. He's much more interested in emotional connection and mutual understanding than physical interaction than a "typical" teenage male would be. This probably relates to the emotional pain of having his friends at extremely-temporary-girlfriend leave him behind in the hospital. That incident matured him immensely, and causes him to be quite desperate for more profound connections than he had in his previous life. He's seen how easy it is for shallower relationships to simply fall away in a time of need. You also have to remember that unlike the other routes, Hisao is struggling with his own feelings for pretty much the entirety of Rin's arc. He doesn't really know whether the feelings he has for Rin are really what traditionally constitutes "love", he doesn't know what actions he should take as a result of those feelings, and he gets very conflicted in his own mind when Rin doesn't respond in a traditional way to his initial advances. He especially doesn't understand Rin's need to focus on her work that caused her to reject his confession; that rejection caused him to very seriously doubt whether Rin actually likes him beyond the point of being a curious interest to her. Even worse, however, is the combination of that flat rejection with the physical intimacy that followed it, especially the night together in the atelier. Taking all these together, Hisao has started believe that Rin is actually far more interested in physical pleasure than he is, and is using him towards that end, but that she does not even have the desire for emotional closeness, which is what he wants above all else.

So, with the attempted kiss in Hisao's dorm room, you get a cruel double dose of dramatic irony. Rin offers Hisao physical intimacy because she thinks that's what he wants. Hisao rejects it, not necessarily because he doesn't want physical intimacy (he is an 18 year old male, after all), but because he thinks Rin is trying to use him for her own selfish purposes. In reality, Rin is honestly trying to get closer to Hisao, which is what he wants, but she simply doesn't know the right way to do so. And as Hisao rejects her kiss and yells at her about playing with his heart, she is devastated. She believes that her efforts to keep Hisao interested in her while she was painting failed, and that he not only no longer has any feelings for her, but actually legitimately hates her (she actually asks later, after Nomiya yells at her, "do you still hate me?").

With regards to the "That's fine" remark, however, I think you may be confusing your scenes a bit. In both instances of Hisao angrily yelling at Rin - either in the atelier during Shards of Ire (bad ending) or in the Hisao's room after the attempted kiss in Demused (good/neutral ending), she becomes visibly upset. Hisao even notes that it's very surprising to see Rin so upset, as opposed to her usual indifference towards everything. She doesn't say "That's fine" as Hisao leaves in either scenario. Instead, she demands that Hisao go away (although when it's in his dorm room, she then realizes that she should be the one to leave instead).

Edit: What I find really interesting about this whole situation is that after this conversation, Hisao isn't really "pining" for Rin like he does in the short days immediately preceding it. In fact, he takes the argument almost as badly as Rin does, and seriously questions whether he should even continue to pursue her. This is why, during the exhibition, there is not really any option to console Rin or make up with her. At that point in the story, Hisao really doesn't think things will work out with Rin. And you can see that mindset in the neutral ending, as Rin says she thought Hisao might be able to understand her, and Hisao refuses to entertain that notion. He even says "All people... are alone. We just use each other to alleviate that loneliness," and then immediately reflects "I wonder why I put it like that." I think this is specifically referencing that he is still bitter about his view that Rin was trying to use him selfishly (either physically or as a creative inspiration). And even though he is angry at the thought of Rin leaving for art school, he's still very guarded about expressing his feelings for Rin again (his response to "Do you hate me" is even "I don't know"), because he's not really sure about them anymore. In the good ending, it's not until Hisao comforts Rin after Nomiya yells at her that he even begins to recover from these bitter feelings, and he's still not completely over them at the end of the route (which is why he responds to Rin's final confession less than vehemently). In the end, Rin's reflections on his kindness finally brighten his outlook on their relationship, and make him believe that they might be able to reach other after all.

Mirrormn wrote:In the good ending, it's not until Hisao comforts Rin after Nomiya yells at her that he even begins to recover from these bitter feelings, and he's still not completely over them at the end of the route (which is why he responds to Rin's final confession less than vehemently).

Yes, I seem to recall even Aura saying "maybe he doesn't love her?"

Raburesu wrote: Yes, I seem to recall even Aura saying "maybe he doesn't love her?"

Indeed. However, I think that it's more profound than Hisao simply doesn't like Rin as much as he thought at first. It's more that neither of them really believe in the pop culture definition of Love - Hisao because he is a cynic, and Rin because she's too focused on the individuality of experiences and emotions to accept the idea of categorizing, generalizing, and labeling them - so although they undeniably have strong feelings for each other, calling those feelings "love" would probably apply flawed connotations and implications that would not reflect the reality of their future. Consider the exchange from Raison d'être:

Katawa Shoujo wrote:Hisao: I don't think it's wrong to express your feelings, even if you use painting as your conduit. You just can't expect people to understand you any better than they would if you did it any other way. In fact, you can't expect people to understand you at all. It's because everything is so subjective. You see the world the way you do, but it's different from everyone else.

Rin: But isn't that terrible?

Hisao: I guess it is, in a way.

Rin: I think it might make me sad after all.

Hisao: Yeah. I know. I wish I could do something to help it.

Rin: It can't be helped, I think. ...but... if you say that... It makes me feel a little better.

I think Hisao is unsure about his love for Rin because he applies the same philosophy to the concept of love. Maybe nobody can really love anybody else, because of the subjectivity of human experience. But he realizes in the end that as long as people are willing to try, it's not that terrible of a thing after all.

Yes to all those analysis.
Creating art (not just playing with it, but really creating, like Rin tries to do) engages you completely. It's very hard to relate normally with normal people while in a creative phase. Some creators cope by having no relatives or rejecting them (see Picasso), some become completely crazy (numerous examples), some manage a nearly normal life by setting boundaries (like a writer with a "writing room" in her house and a writing schedule set in stone)...
Rin doesn't want to reject Hisao, but she also knows she can't be at her most creative with him around if he's more than a silent support, so she tries to negotiate that, but Hisao can't understand (he's young, and not a creator). Notice that when she rejects his confession, she doesn't completely shoot him down. It's more like "I can't deal with that now, and I'm still happy with you around".

The way I see it, she has two "kinds" of art. One is the art she uses as a form of expression, her second language. The other kind is the "commercial" kind of art where she is just squeezing her works out from nothing. Rin's good at art because she uses it extensively to express herself, not to earn admirers or big bucks. She doesn't practice, because you don't practice trying to express your inner feelings in a way natural to yourself, you simply do it. That's why she had to break herself. Recall back when there was this time when you were genuinely interested in a certain school subject, until exams and curriculum came in and destroyed the interest.

Has there been any good explanation as to why Rin cried while she was asleep in the classroom? And at the end of the route When she cried again, it seemed fake, but why?

newnar wrote:The way I see it, she has two "kinds" of art. One is the art she uses as a form of expression, her second language. The other kind is the "commercial" kind of art where she is just squeezing her works out from nothing. Rin's good at art because she uses it extensively to express herself, not to earn admirers or big bucks. She doesn't practice, because you don't practice trying to express your inner feelings in a way natural to yourself, you simply do it. That's why she had to break herself. Recall back when there was this time when you were genuinely interested in a certain school subject, until exams and curriculum came in and destroyed the interest.

I think both of her arts were the same. The second art was the first art but she just ran out of things to express. She broke herself for the new experiences so that she would have more to express on the canvas.

Rin tin tin wrote:Has there been any good explanation as to why Rin cried while she was asleep in the classroom? And at the end of the route When she cried again, it seemed fake, but why?

For the asleep part, not that I noticed. Probably a nightmare? She's been through some rejection experiences that could lead to very bad dreams.
For the end of the route, she explains it herself. She's afraid of Hisao's kindness. In my mind, because she's just tried to confess to him and is afraid she misunderstood the reason for the kindness and he will reject her. Deeper explanations await you just not far ago in previous posts.

Well, Hisao specifically notes later, while Rin cries in the dandelion field in Proof of Existence, that the tears she is shedding remind him of those tears from the classroom. You can probably take that thought of Hisao's to be a literary tool used to indicate that the trigger for her crying was roughly the same in both circumstances. In Proof of Existence, Rin specifically says she is crying because she is afraid of Hisao's kindness ("People cry when they are afraid, right? See? I can do it too." - one of my favorite quotes from Rin's route).

So, what specifically could she be afraid of as she sleeps in the classroom in The Scent of Light? There are two main possibilities in my mind. The first is the obvious: at that point in the story, she has just committed to doing the art exhibition, so she could be subconsciously fearing the upcoming implications of that decision. It's obviously a big deal to her, since she is convinced she will have to completely change herself as a person to accomplish it. It's very likely that she fears that change.

The other option is that when Hisao finds her asleep in the classroom, he walks over and caresses her face. It could be that she cries because she is afraid of that act of intimacy. This would mean that Hisao either woke her up by touching her, or the physical contact influenced her dreaming consciousness significantly. The latter is probably a lot more likely, because she doesn't seem to acknowledge the crying right after she wakes up, and when she cries later in Proof of Existence, she doesn't seem to realize that Hisao has seen her cry before.

By the way, I love this thread! Every question I answer makes me go back and revisit parts of Rin's route with a new perspective and appreciate it even more.

Epiphanies, epiphanies everywhere.

Also, since Hisao has kind of gave up on a normal relationship with Rin in the last scene in the studio (after her final "self destruction" where Rin said it was a mistake etc.) and once again confirmed in the fight in Hisao's room when she tried to kiss him...

...Has Hisao this ambiguous, semi-love semi-whatever relationship with her? It's not real "love" anymore, is it?

Does that mean the story ended with "we're fucked but so what Rin is happy and I'm sticking with her" ?

Titus wrote: Also, since Hisao has kind of gave up on a normal relationship with Rin in the last scene in the studio (after her final "self destruction" where Rin said it was a mistake etc.) and once again confirmed in the fight in Hisao's room when she tried to kiss him...

...Has Hisao this ambiguous, semi-love semi-whatever relationship with her? It's not real "love" anymore, is it?

Does that mean the story ended with "we're fucked but so what Rin is happy and I'm sticking with her" ?

That sounds about right, yes, though not exactly how I would put it.

Mirrormn wrote:

Titus wrote: Also, since Hisao has kind of gave up on a normal relationship with Rin in the last scene in the studio (after her final "self destruction" where Rin said it was a mistake etc.) and once again confirmed in the fight in Hisao's room when she tried to kiss him...

...Has Hisao this ambiguous, semi-love semi-whatever relationship with her? It's not real "love" anymore, is it?

Does that mean the story ended with "we're fucked but so what Rin is happy and I'm sticking with her" ?

That sounds about right, yes, though not exactly how I would put it.

FFFFF-

Is it love, are they in love but just can't close the gap of understanding each other except expressing their love through intimacy using kissing and sex, am I right?