Katawa Shoujo Forums

Seems the japanophile I was waiting for was you after all, Ravenlord.

I hope you block me like you said you would in that other thread, cause it will only serve to prove how much of a child you are.

Dullfinn wrote:

WorldlyWiseman wrote:The writer did have other parts of Japanese culture that didn't come up elsewhere in the game (the train system, Tanabata, student cleaning duties)

As we are already treading slightly off-topic, might I ask what you mean by those, specifically? (Okay, the festival thing is clear, and I suppose students have to tidy up their classrooms before they leave, but what about the trains?)

PS: I find it a bit humorous that you place the game's story to occur exactly in the year 2007. Never thought about it like that. Is it really stated somewhere, or are you just thinking about the game's inception date?

Oddball wrote: The trains and Tanabata also show up in Lilly's route.

I might be misremembering something from the Ask thread about the actual date being around there. The phones shown look like mid-2000s models, e-mail is commonplace, and I don't see any reason for the devs to have the game take place in the future (from when development started). It might not be fixed at all, but it's not a big deal as long as we all admit that the internet does in fact exist

Things specific to Japanese culture...the train scenes are a complete memory fail on my part. Lilly's train scene is indeed longer and has more details in it, but neither scene really has anything that Japan-specific in it. I have no idea why I decided to throw that in at the last second. Tanabata is mentioned in Lilly's route, whereas it actually happens in Shizune's route and we have some nice ambient details (but nothing that couldn't be found out with easy research. Again, weak example). Cleaning duties were mentioned in the Shizune path and nowhere else. I was under the impression that students in Japanese schools had to do a decent amount of cleaning (sweeping up and emptying trash and washing blackboards and such) as a work ethic/school budget saving thing.

My point was that if A22 was aware of and made a point of including these details in the background, and then decided to have a character be lesbian/bi, he might be aware of how LBGT individuals are treated in Japan and have that as something that is affecting said character, even if the story doesn't really go into it. My examples are kind of weak. I must sound like a terrible weeaboo.

Dr. Robotnik wrote: Or she could move to America and start a new life like she said that she was going to.

I would absolutely love to speculate on Misha's American Life. Joining a lesbian biker gang? Releasing research animals into the wild as a animal-rights activist? Throwing a trash can at a cop car in the midst of Occupy Wall Street? There's so many ferociously determined people that she could be drawn to doing so many crazy things that her life could go all sorts of places!

Dullfinn wrote:PS: I find it a bit humorous that you place the game's story to occur exactly in the year 2007. Never thought about it like that. Is it really stated somewhere, or are you just thinking about the game's inception date?

Well, they're not all using Bluetooth headsets and flying around in jetpacks, so obviously it must take place in the distant past.

Also, just IMO but you guys should calm down with the troll-hunting. No reason to derail an interesting topic with needless bashing or inciting.

(I'd contribute meaningfully to the topic but, frankly, I know nothing about this. It's interesting to see some opinions / data though.)

Gandara wrote:Well, they're not all using Bluetooth headsets and flying around in jetpacks, so obviously it must take place in the distant past.

I always imagine contemporary stories happening "right now", that is, with no specific date - unless otherwise indicated. KS is a difficult one in that it obviously isn't happening in the future, but if it's happening now, where are all the compures? If it is "2007", what's indicating that? Judging from those phones it might even be the year 2000! (Relevance? Well, none, but the sudden thought and subsequent shock that it MIGHT be 2007 had me thinking all kinds of stuff, like, what happened around the globe in news stories, and in my personal life, etc. Heh. ;)

WorldlyWiseman wrote: I would absolutely love to speculate on Misha's American Life. Joining a lesbian biker gang? Releasing research animals into the wild as a animal-rights activist? Throwing a trash can at a cop car in the midst of Occupy Wall Street? There's so many ferociously determined people that she could be drawn to doing so many crazy things that her life could go all sorts of places!

Oh god yes. Imagine if she joins lesbian Al Qaeda.

To kind of wrap up the discussion about homosexuality in Japan, this article and this article are the most coherent opinions I can find on the subject. This page is pretty interesting, but focuses on men. There are plenty of descriptions of the samurai pederasty tradition, and of semi-legal male prostitutes, and it is implied in a number of places that the arrival of Christian missionaries and the collapse of the feudal system is to blame for this tradition coming to an end.

There seems to be a great deal focus on male homosexuality. I have to pretty much resort to using an anecdote from an ancient forum thread to make all of this relevant.

A girl named Karashi wrote: Hello to the girl wondering about being bisexual in Japan,
I can only give you my personal experience. I am not bisexual... I'm a lesbian. I stayed in a homestay close to Osaka for two months, and fell in love with my homestay sister there (unfortunately, an incredibly charming girl my age). Foolishly, but in the end perhaps for the best, I told her mother that I liked her because I couldn't bring myself to tell this girl, and I couldn't keep my secret any longer.
When I told her mother, I was asked if I had a "big love" ... if I liked both men and women. I said I didn't think so, and at this point, my homestay mother became very upset and angry. She said that "that" (Me liking only other women) was a problem in Japan, and for her family.
After that, I suffered for a month in the homestay, with my homestay mother struggling to tolerate me but finding it impossible. I was forced to leave at the end of that second month.
You can take from this what you will, I suppose, but it seemed that being bisexual was more respectable that being a lesbian.
If anyone has any explanation for this, by the way, I would love to hear it. It was a horrible experience for me, and having just emailed my homestay sister one last time, now that she knows how I feel about her even now, she said that it was sad, but we must say farewell to one another ... cut off all connections.
Does anyone have an opinion on this? Is this standard behaviour? I miss her terribly, but of course can only do as she asks.

The rest of the thread defends the mother's actions as having nothing to do with the girl's sexuality and fails to address why the mother cared if the girl was bi.

So even when gay lovers were an acceptable thing, it doesn't seem like it was so for lesbian women. It doesn't seem to have changed at all, and Japan as a culture basically refuses to talk about it meaningfully. The most Misha could hope for in playing the traditional roles is to find a man who's really into Yuri stuff, get hitched to him, and live a double life with a girl on the side.

This is why I'm giving her the head-canon happy ending of flying over to the US and meeting a chick who has that Shizune-esque-fire-in-her-belly and is really into political activism.

Dr. Robotnik wrote: Oh god yes. Imagine if she joins lesbian Al Qaeda.

The Twin Towers were clearly phallic and had to be destroyed.

WorldlyWiseman wrote:This is why I'm giving her the head-canon happy ending of flying over to the US and meeting a chick who has that Shizune-esque-fire-in-her-belly and is really into political activism.

I suppose that begs the question if her Bush shirt was being worn for symbolic and/or ironic purposes of if she's actually a neo-con at heart.

I took Misha's shirt as a jab at those people who wear clothes with "those awesome Japanese letters" on them without having the slightest clue what they mean.

Misha has no idea what it means, she just likes those cool looking foreign words.

Except Japanese students have to learn English to a vaguelly passable (and hillarious) level, and the name of a US president is not something Japanese people are likely to be confused about.

Too bad it wasn't an HW Bush shirt, perhaps with a line about ruining dinner.

vaguely passable is an accurate way to point it out, really.

I can imagine Misha wearing an Obama shirt with a big 'CHANGE' written on it.

Megumeru wrote:vaguely passable is an accurate way to point it out, really.

I can imagine Misha wearing an Obama shirt with a big 'CHANGE' written on it.

Misha as Obama Girl. Somebody get on this. NOW.

nemz wrote:Except Japanese students have to learn English to a vaguelly passable (and hillarious) level, and the name of a US president is not something Japanese people are likely to be confused about.

Too bad it wasn't an HW Bush shirt, perhaps with a line about ruining dinner.

I think the dev-given reason has something to do with Cheny's daughter, and it would be adorable if that was true in-game, but it might not be.

Actually, Misha and Shizune clashing on politics would be an interesting angle. Shizune seems to have a number of traditional ideas on gender roles (she clearly thinks the guy should ask the girl out, for example...).

WorldlyWiseman wrote: Actually, Misha and Shizune clashing on politics would be an interesting angle. Shizune seems to have a number of traditional ideas on gender roles (she clearly thinks the guy should ask the girl out, for example...).

If you look at the political spectrum, yeah you can find their clash on politics would be interesting--VERY interesting.

Shizune can be seen as your down-to-earth right-wing conservative while Misha would stand on right about the center-left with the liberals. Most people are placed in the moderates which are the 'center'--we polisci students call it the 'uninformed' jokingly.
If you don't understand what a political spectrum is, this should give a clear view at least: http://esl.fis.edu/learners/support/hum ... ectrum.htm

the explanation from that site rather *irked* me in my opinion, but there's a few more ways to explain conservatives, liberals, socialists, etc. and it depends on your preference. From what I learned, the liberals are on the left (not the center), moderates on the center, and conservatives on the right. Then we have the socialists on the further left and the communists on the furthest left, libertarians (don't confuse this with liberals) on the further right, and the fascists on the furthest right. Funny thing is the communists and the fascists are so different that they are so alike--you'll get what I mean one day...maybe

the terms given can also be rather confusing--maybe philosophical to some. What is freedom? Does having less rights equal more freedom? Or is having laws ensures that freedom exists without breaking down to anarchy? Things like these are the topic of discussion in political science classes and they're my kind of junk--I LOVE IT.


anyway, that's politics-wise. A bit off-track i think

Oddball wrote:I took Misha's shirt as a jab at those people who wear clothes with "those awesome Japanese letters" on them without having the slightest clue what they mean.

Misha has no idea what it means, she just likes those cool looking foreign words.

The reverse applies too. I've seen mainland Chinese and Japanese tourists wearing T-shirts with some ridiculous bullshit on them.

Offhand:
'I love Diarrhoea (yes, capitalized) forever!'
'Sparkle Shine Love You'

Seriously. It's like those cocks who try to get tattoos Chinese characters or kanji without having a clue what the fuck they mean or even consulting a native speaker.

Megumeru wrote: If you look at the political spectrum, yeah you can find their clash on politics would be interesting--VERY interesting.

Shizune can be seen as your down-to-earth right-wing conservative while Misha would stand on right about the center-left with the liberals. Most people are placed in the moderates which are the 'center'--we polisci students call it the 'uninformed' jokingly.
If you don't understand what a political spectrum is, this should give a clear view at least: http://esl.fis.edu/learners/support/hum ... ectrum.htm

the explanation from that site rather *irked* me in my opinion, but there's a few more ways to explain conservatives, liberals, socialists, etc. and it depends on your preference. From what I learned, the liberals are on the left (not the center), moderates on the center, and conservatives on the right. Then we have the socialists on the further left and the communists on the furthest left, libertarians (don't confuse this with liberals) on the further right, and the fascists on the furthest right. Funny thing is the communists and the fascists are so different that they are so alike--you'll get what I mean one day...maybe

the terms given can also be rather confusing--maybe philosophical to some. What is freedom? Does having less rights equal more freedom? Or is having laws ensures that freedom exists without breaking down to anarchy? Things like these are the topic of discussion in political science classes and they're my kind of junk--I LOVE IT.


anyway, that's politics-wise. A bit off-track i think

That chart has...problems. It makes absolutely no sense to present these ideas as a spectrum, as each can overlap in different ways. A fascist government can be socialist in the sense that the State owns the nation's industries, and many social conservatives are neo-liberal when it comes to distributing resources. I'm not sure American notions of these ideologies can apply to Japan, but then again I'm not a Government major so I have no idea?

Shizune is hardly down-to-earth in any sense. Her major failing is that she has trouble accepting when people have had enough. She is definitely an idealist. She seems conservative in the sense that traditions should be preserved and followed closely enough, and I would think that she approaches gender roles as 'the rules of the game' so to speak. I've seen woman take this approach to dating; even if they have careers and influence, the man is still expected to be the aggressor, because they are both a part of the system that has benefited them and this is how the system works (in their minds).

I have no idea what politics Misha would have. At every point we see her, she is following along with what Shizune does. She may not even have a definite opinions. If given the chance, she has little incentive to stick with a system that dislikes her for who she is (beyond shame, which is kind of fucked up), so she would turn out less traditional and less likely to support the rhetoric of many conservatives. I would hope that she has the courage to stand up to them when it comes to gender politics. No idea where she would stand in terms of economic and military policy and such.

WorldlyWiseman wrote: -snip-

Indeed, I have to agree that the chart has problems but it is--for most politicians and government major--an easy way to determine which ideology you're aligned to.

The one I showed is a quick-google turn up; ones I'm using differs slightly with moderates in the middle, conservatives on the right, and liberals on the left (the one I googled up has liberals in the middle). Sometimes, bias on these charts are present--in this case, the explanation on 'liberals' where it actually applies to moderates while 'socialists' explanation applies to liberals. Don't get confused between liberals and libertarians! They sound the same, but they're pretty much at the end of each spectrum. This applies to almost everyone in this world.

Also, it is true that a fascist government owns the State's industries--but that's what makes it fascists in the first place, right? A fascist government meant control over the State with the laid-out laws being absolute and supreme military control. As Benito Mussolini once quoted, 'the state is supreme'. Nazism is another form of fascism that is 'racial-driven', so never group them the same as the rest of 'fascism'.

Anyway, do note that the political spectrum comes in a semi-circle. The communists are on the far-left (again, communism comes in many flavors. Marxists, Leninists, Stalinists, Maoists, and Kim Il Sung-ists(?) and they are all different from one another. If Marx was still alive and saw Russia before the collapse, China, and North Korea, he'll cry tears of blood.) and fascism is on the far-right. What's interesting is that the more 'extreme' you go on either of these spectrum the closer they are together until eventually they will meet in the center and left no distinction between fascism and communism with both sharing the same methods of execution on running the State (with a slight variation in 'text'). It being a semi-circle in design tells the irony of the two opposing sides of the political spectrum that the more extreme both sides go, they'll end up just the same in the end.

There's also the issue with social-conservatives (I call them 'S-cons' or 'scons') and the Neo-liberals (N-iberals/Niberals). The main weakness with the chart comes only with a generalized and simplified way of aligning ideology, but it doesn't determine party alignment. Someone who is a scons would might as well join a conservative party to gain popular support, same goes for the Niberals joining a liberal party--in the US, it's like the tea party joining the Republicans. They're not popular (maybe), but they do so in order to gain a 'voice' in the election and--if lucky--one of their candidates appeal to the majority and get appointed.

In Japan, the government runs almost like a British parliament (called the Diet), but not quite the same. They have two parties--similarly conservatives and liberals like the US--with the former holding most of the seats since 1945 if memory serves me correctly (although recently, their liberal party won so that's a change). Japan's political situation is unique though that it has a lot of resigns from office--the most recent one was after the earthquake and Fukushima where Prime Minister Naoto Kan resigned from office.

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anyway, that is somewhat out of topic. Now, what made me believe Shizune would be a conservative (a 'Republican' is a party; so is a 'Democrat') in a sense was how she would preserve the common 'ROE' (Rules of Engagement) in life. She's the type of person who I see would follow a rule to-the-letter and would often sacrifice 'rights' for 'freedom' (these two topics are subjective). Misha, on the other hand (and following her preference) would be more on the liberal side of the spectrum. BUT! Considering what you pointed out, she may as well be a moderate who runs on both ends of the spectrum.

...shit, I just let myself go did I...?