Katawa Shoujo Forums

Xanatos wrote:On the topic of birthdays: Birthdays should really only be celebrated once a decade. Surviving one year isn't a big victory, generally speaking. On your 90th birthday, you should be legally allowed to kill one person of your choosing (literally anyone, and they have to come to you) with your bare hands (substitutions accepted: You can pick a person to drink with if you're a pacifist or something). Once you hit 100, you legally own anything you can manage to pick up even a little off the ground.

Well. I guess I could have sex without anyone raise their eyebrow and legally watch all kind of porn at 18. But as these "law" aren't strictly enforeced on the Internet. So...

Btw, I never had sex, But I might pass being teenager with "Healthy sex drive"

So it turns out I'm jealous and an asshole, and unattractive.

Some background: I'm 33, I'm a mature student at college studying ASL. My girlfriend and I have been together for 12 years. However, she has very low libido which frustrates us both. Doctors haven't found anything wrong, so we're stuck for a solution apart from me (with a high sex drive) just having to put up with it, something I've done for quite a few years now. Fairly recently some people told me about open relationships and when I suggested this to her as a way of coping with our little problem, she agreed. Standard rules for this sort of thing apply, all of which are about safety and discretion, but the bottom line is if I find a willing partner, she doesn't mind.

I have a friend at college. On the very first day she sat next to me and was very flirtatious from the moment we started talking. I also happen to think she's beautiful and when some very bad things happened to her in that first week (a third girl to be mentioned later was present) she was suddenly gone from the class again and I didn't see her again for months. So, it was much later that she finally started coming back to class. I think what cemented my interest was when she blew off her friend (very bluntly) to ride home on the subway with me. Her stop is before mine, and when she got off she turned and look back through the window and gave me the biggest smile. Now, she's also in an open relationship, albeit the next stage (polyamorous) and has a boyfriend who is married with a pregnant wife (he's also more than twice her age). She thinks the world of him, though the wife is apparently very moody and doesn't always approve. After going for a night out with some friends and talking about the whole open thing (she goes to sex clubs) one night I texted her saying that I was interested in her. She reciprocated and the next day we excitedly had lunch to talk about ourselves in much more intimate detail than before, and also to discuss our own rules. She was a bit concerned at first by my girlfriend - admitting it was hypocritical to not want to be the other woman considering her lifestyle - but trusted me that it wasn't an issue, my girlfriend wouldn't mind.

It was great at first. I'd go over to her house, we'd snuggle on the couch and talk about stuff; one day when she was sick she didn't want to cancel our plans so I went over with some medicine and comfort food, and cuddled her in bed until she felt better and fell asleep. It didn't last. She had a very tough upbringing, and also has BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder) so she made sure to instruct me how to not freak her out, because it can sometimes just take a little thing. Problems at therapy and with her doctors and medication meant she was never in the mood for hanging out, only to talk about her problems and burst into tears multiple times over the course of the conversation. The beautiful, funny girl I'd liked was now so unhappy, and I couldn't do anything except sit and listen, hold her hand, and offer kleenex. I told her I would be there anytime she needed something, she told me that she always felt so much better after talking to me. When her boyfriend's wife ordered them to break up on the same day that her roommate declared she was moving out in two weeks, she was crushed. Reading week was coming up in college and I hopefully asked if she could find some time for me: she said she doubted it, it was more likely that she would be too busy trying to find a new roommate in order ensure she could pay the rent.

This turned out to be true, and we didn't get together. Later on, she posted on Facebook that she was feeling sick and wondered if anyone would volunteer to be a nurse. I texted her and offered to bring her more stuff. She declined, and the conversation suddenly turned into a 'dumping' via text. She claimed that she felt awkward around me, and that our personalities clashed. I protested that we never spent enough time together to build out friend(ship) with benefits any more so yes, it might feel like we were growing apart. She admitted that she felt like she'd rushed into our relationship and that '(her) feelings had changed'. Two days before we had worked through one class to get her assignment ready for another class like crazy people, she'd held my hand under the desk in the computer lab as we typed furiously to get her assignment ready - what? You told me all this really personal shit and I told you so much personal shit (stuff I'd never told anyone before), when I'd left your house the last time we couldn't stop hugging goodbye, what the hell? I texted that we should talk about this later, before I got upset and said something I'd regret.

My second friend is my confidant. She's extremely switched on and we can talk for hours about just about anything. She was also friends with the first girl and was also concerned for her during that long 'down' stage. The day that the first girl broke it off with me, I had finally worked up the nerve to tell the second girl that there was something going on between us. We'd talked about First a lot in the past, frustrated that there was a wonderful person in there who seemed to both want and need support but would just push anyone who got close away. This is a symptom of BPD, fear of trusting someone who betrays them, also illustrated by the wonderful sentence "I hate you. Don't leave me". When I got 'dumped' I immediately messaged this friend. She warned that I was developing an emotional relationship with First that went beyond the remit of friends with benefits. This scared me, and I realized that it was impossible to avoid when I'd starting being a go-to for her personal issues. For the next little while I was upset and depressed, something never aided by seeing the person responsible carrying on as if life is all fine and dandy. We've slowly started talking again and are now at a stage where it's like the dumping never happened. She's constantly telling me how much I make her laugh and that I'm the best and I help her with her homework, so I'm completely confused, especially when there's always a hug goodbye that is very close and lingers in the way that a platonic one doesn't. Stupid here (me) is petrified of broaching the subject in case it sets our friendship back 50 steps again.

Second is also an open person - she has a number of guys that she calls if she wants to have sex, and currently lives with her ex who she occasionally sleeps with also. She knows I'm interested in her and takes it in her stride. When she mentioned her roommate/ex was away for the weekend I suggested I come over, but she declined saying all her 'special' friends are people she's known for years and doesn't think the two of us are there yet. That night I apologized for the inappropriate advance and she immediately forgave me, because she understands that I am frustrated and looking for FWBs. We have a really strong connection and do a lot of things together, including rock climbing and 'adventures' where we just find a nice place to go for a walk so we can talk openly without worrying about people we know overhearing. I'd go so far as to say she's my best friend because of all this, and I've put thoughts of FWB with her to the back of my mind for the foreseeable future. She has personal space issues and so isn't affectionate at all - a hug is as far as she ever wants to go with anyone, and I always respect this.

Last night she invited me to the single launch party for her friend's band. In attendance was our mutual friend from rock climbing and college, a fairly shy and reserved guy. Usually Second and I will blab away for hours and he won't say more than ten words (his English isn't the best). She mentioned that she was happy I was going too, just because she didn't want him thinking it was a 'date' and getting the wrong idea. Off we went, and after a few beers he was a bit more chatty. After we left the bar, though, something wasn't right. He was being affectionate toward her, and she was letting him. He was breaking all her personal space rules. When I had a moment alone with Second I asked her what was going on - that she'd wanted me along to show the whole thing was just friends, now he was all over her and she was in some instances reciprocating. She responded that she didn't mind him hitting on her after all, and that she invited a lot of people to this party and so on and so forth.

Well. Being a third wheel is always awkward. But when you're watching a girl canoodling with a guy she said she wasn't interested in, when she knows you have an interest in her... tears of frustrated jealousy, barely being suppressed. It's stupid and unfair and selfish but I couldn't help it. I put the bravest face I had on but she knows me well enough to know something was wrong, and asked me to tell her NOW what was up (not later, NOW). What, in front of the person who's the problem? Not going to happen. It was after 3am by this stage and we ended up at the night bus stop. I was the only one who knew how to get home (in that I was the only one willing to pull their phone out and look on the internet for the bus routes and times). The bus arrived already full and the 20 or so people at the stop forced their way on, leaving us and a few others behind. Second and the guy retreated inside an ATM area for warmth while they waited for the next bus. I couldn't bear to look any more, so I made the politest excuses I could and left. A block away, I hailed a cab and took the financial hit just to get home ASAP so I could go to bed.

My third friend isn't the most popular person, though sometimes she thinks she is. During a class skit we had to play the part of husband and wife and we now jokingly refer to each other as such. Second and I agreed that after a year of classes being disrupted by this person's antics, we should just try to get along with everyone, including her, Third. Third is young and inexperienced with life, a strange combination of good little Christian girl (Second and I went to her baptism the other weekend) and that promiscuous girl everyone knows. The 'get along' agreement was made just before we had a very stressful screening session for the next program at college. Third was beside herself with anxiety and spent much of the day with her head buried in my shoulder. Yes, unlike First and Second, Third is very physically affectionate. There's another side to this girl that very few people have seen, largely because it's almost impossible to get her away from her stupid friends for a one to one conversation. She was there when the bad things happened to First at a sex club. She tells me taking the stairs is boring because she knows 'more fun ways' to burn calories.

I'm stuck. I wouldn't mind spending some time with her as FWB but I just can't think of a way to move things past the stage they're at without it all exploding horribly. She invited me to a play today; I mentioned that I wasn't sure, but that I did want to go do stuff together just the two of us (a few weeks ago we went for lunch and it was great fun). She said something very vague about just two people being 'awkward' 'sometimes' before changing the subject.

To top all this off, I didn't pass the screening test to get into next ASL program, so I'm considering an alternative program. Second is already in, and when she discovered Third was going too she had the 'get along' idea so that things would at least stay civil if they had to work together. First is only somewhat confident she passed the screening, so she is applying for the alternative too (she's asked to come with me to the information session so she won't be the only person she knows there and feel anxious). In other words, I've been rejected by my first attempt to change my career (I sold my house, my car and everything I had to move us back to Canada to do this) and also I feel rejected by these three girls that won't be leaving my life if I try to pursue my plan B. My girlfriend and I are still happy, there's just that one part of our relationship that isn't right. I've gone through all this pain and unhappiness trying to fix that and I have absolutely nothing to show for it except depression and more sexual frustration.

I'm miserable. Thanks for reading.

metalangel wrote:(long ass message)

Shit sucks bro. But really, thanks for sharing.

It sounds really dumb, but the only piece of advice I can give is to look inside and find out what "you" want. Don't think about what others want or the implications, figure out exactly what you want. Then add in the cost/benefit of things that might hurt other people, and decide what you want to do and go from there. With that in mind sometimes people get upset with themselves for feeling a certain way that they think they shouldn't feel. But getting upset doesn't help anything and we can't control our feelings, they just happen. What we can control is what we think to ourselves and what we do.

Well, Second and I have talked since I posted that. I apologized for being weird and leaving because I felt like a third wheel, she apologized that things got weird and making me feel awkward.

I'm happy to have such a good friend.

metalangel wrote:Well, Second and I have talked since I posted that. I apologized for being weird and leaving because I felt like a third wheel, she apologized that things got weird and making me feel awkward.

I'm happy to have such a good friend.

very good to hear

My advice to you, metalangel, is to quit living a soap opera. Jesus fucking Christ...

Xanatos wrote:My advice to you, metalangel, is to quit living a soap opera. Jesus fucking Christ...

Seriously.

As for the low libido thing... I've never been able to get that to work. I have almost none, or at least it almost never shows up, and this was always a strain on any sexual relationships. Protip: women don't like it when you tell them you're not in the mood with some regularity. It makes them feel unattractive and unappreciated (of course it's totally fine if they do it ). I've decided I enjoy being alone more than I'm willing to put up with the very bullshit you describe just to get something I rarely want.

Also: Second may be a great friend in your books, but that was a pretty lousy thing to do to a friend if you've told the whole story.

Xanatos wrote:My advice to you, metalangel, is to quit living a soap opera. Jesus fucking Christ...
Seriously.

Yeah, I'm thinking maybe spending less time trying to hook up with someone and more time getting to be friends might be in order. So much drama.

As for the low libido thing... I've never been able to get that to work. I have almost none, or at least it almost never shows up, and this was always a strain on any sexual relationships. Protip: women don't like it when you tell them you're not in the mood with some regularity. It makes them feel unattractive and unappreciated (of course it's totally fine if they do it ). I've decided I enjoy being alone more than I'm willing to put up with the very bullshit you describe just to get something I rarely want.

I wish I had your problem. I think I may have too much, and nobody to share it with.

pandaphil wrote:I wish I had your problem. I think I may have too much, and nobody to share it with.

Share with yourself.

muliebrity wrote: As for the low libido thing... I've never been able to get that to work. I have almost none, or at least it almost never shows up, and this was always a strain on any sexual relationships. Protip: women don't like it when you tell them you're not in the mood with some regularity. It makes them feel unattractive and unappreciated (of course it's totally fine if they do it ).

It works the same way for men. Billy Connolly (famous comedian) said that women need to feel loved to have sex, men need to have sex to feel loved. And it's true, a sexual rejection to a man is not just a 'not tonight', it's more of a 'you're ugly and unpleasant and I don't want to be with you'.

Also: Second may be a great friend in your books, but that was a pretty lousy thing to do to a friend if you've told the whole story.

I really don't think she's 'into' him, but yes, it was a lousy thing to do and she's apologized for the awkwardness that resulted. I've talked to him a few times since too and haven't mentioned it. First remarked the other day she was astonished that I'd penetrated what she described as Second's 'real life fortress' so I am even more honoured to call her a friend if she lets so few people 'in'. Second, meanwhile, has given up trying to be First's friend citing many of the same reasons as me (you push people away all the time and then act offended when they don't invite you to stuff?) out of sheer frustration. You can't force someone to be your friend. I observed that this pretty much fulfills the BPD prophecy though: "I won't trust people because they'll leave me/I'm pushing them away now/What did I tell you? They stopped being my friend." Ugh. Second also suggested that I find a new hobby, since "chasing girls who have major problems" isn't working out well for me. She understands, she's on the other side of the coin: she has two very pathetic weirdos she let get too close hassling her and we laugh our butts off about it.

On a related note to that, she's also apologized for the 'get along' plan since she thinks Third's attentions will spoil my good name at college and regrets putting me into that difficult spot. The icing on this already diabetes-inducing cake is that Third is distraught - why? - because the guy SHE wants for a boyfriend refuses to show affection in public! Her plan to solve this? Have him and her bestie over to her house and see if he will, in front of the bestie! If not, it's dumpsville for him. I pointed out the flaws in this plan, I don't think she got it.

pandaphil wrote:
Yeah, I'm thinking maybe spending less time trying to hook up with someone and more time getting to be friends might be in order. So much drama.

http://www.girlschase.com/content/how-g ... ival-guide
http://www.girlschase.com/content/attra ... ation-date

You must have heard of the friend zone by now, right?

http://www.laddertheory.com/

I have friends. All the people from my class that I am going to end up friends with, I'm already friends with. There's one other that I want to go for a beer with before the end of the year but that's all.

I recall, many years ago, a friend lamenting 'the friend zone' repeatedly, as well as that he felt he'd given away a girl to me (in truth, the girl was repulsed by him) and I remember, after the girl and I parted ways, watching his drunken attempts to win her back which I would have physically intervened in had she not told me to stay back and watch her handle it herself (which she did).

I need to stop mentioning the "friend" thing. This is the second time I've gotten in trouble over it.

Oh hell, I should just stop posting in this thread entirely. I've got no business trying to offer advice when my own life is such a freakin' mess.

pandaphil wrote:Yeah, I'm thinking maybe spending less time trying to hook up with someone and more time getting to be friends might be in order. So much drama.

Let me tell you about a friend of mine. I've brought him up on these forums before as being very Kenji-like. For the 4 or so years that I've known him, he has been going to great lengths to try to find a lady-friend to bone. He's tried adjusting his behavior in manifold ways, from going out of his way to get better at asking for phone numbers to starting a fake OK Cupid account posing as a woman to try and see things from a female perspective. I've seen him grow to recognize his own flaws (like slight misogyny) and try to change to become both a better and more desirable person. He's gone on many dates, but unfortunately keeps shooting himself in the foot; one girl he was doing very well with ended up telling him never to contact her again because he said (in response to her whining that most men aren't interested in her as a person, that they don't appreciate her wonderful personality) that she doesn't have a great personality. He did this to try and prove a point, I forget what it was, but this sort of thing is still happening.

Not the most inspiring story, but the thing is I do find him kind of inspiring. He really wants to find love, and he's going all out to find it. He hasn't succeeded in years (he's not unattractive, I think, but I'm straight so maybe my opinion on that is irrelevant), but he is not giving up, in fact he's just planning another new tactic. It's interesting to see, he really wants it, so he's changed himself significantly over the years. At this point, I think the problem is that he wants a serious relationship for keeps, most women his age don't and he just doesn't like most women very much and can't keep his fool mouth shut. Don't give up, man, just keep trying if you want something, failure makes you tougher. The more you fail, the less you care when you do, and then you can focus on learning from the experience to bring you that much closer to your goal.

I wish I had your problem. I think I may have too much, and nobody to share it with.

Well, it is nice, in a way.

Xanatos wrote:Share with yourself.

Ain't a woman alive that can give you lovin' as good as your right hand.

metalangel wrote:It works the same way for men. Billy Connolly (famous comedian) said that women need to feel loved to have sex, men need to have sex to feel loved. And it's true, a sexual rejection to a man is not just a 'not tonight', it's more of a 'you're ugly and unpleasant and I don't want to be with you'.

Well yeah, I meant that it's more socially normal for a woman to say "I'm not in the mood" or "I have a headache." When I did it, it was often like I wasn't fulfilling some kind of boyfriend duty to provide on-demand sexy times, so eventually I started faking it. I let this slip during a heart-to-heart with one girlfriend and... Kind of wish I'd never started faking it.

My reason for bringing it up was that I found that differing levels of sexual desire put a lot more strain on intimate relationships than I used to think they would, and I've found it ends up a major complaint come breakup season (approximately the months of August, September and October). I can see why it would be an issue with your girlfriend. I'll be interested to hear if this open relationship thing ends up being as okay as she claims.

Second also suggested that I find a new hobby, since "chasing girls who have major problems" isn't working out well for me.

Ayup. Daddy issues, histrionic personality, compulsive lying: getting a little tail doesn't seem worth all of that when there are plenty of lonely and sensible ladies about.

The icing on this already diabetes-inducing cake is that Third is distraught - why?

That's a rung below first world problems. Them's yuppie suburbia problems.

on the subject of the friendzone

I don't think that's what pandaphil was saying. He never said "friend zone." He's frustrated because he's not succeeding in meeting women who want what he does, this is a perfectly understandable thing to be frustrated about. Your friend was acting entitled, pandaphil is only frustrated.

pandaphil wrote:Oh hell, I should just stop posting in this thread entirely. I've got no business trying to offer advice when my own life is such a freakin' mess.

You make me sad. In my interactions here, at least, you seem like a genuinely good person (it's easy to tell you definitely are, actually, even with Xanatos it's easy because you can't hide a good heart under jokes about scatplay and cumbuckets). You don't seem like the sort of entitled manchild metalangel described in his response to you at all, and your advice is perfectly valid as a decent human being who has earnest emotional connections to other human beings. You're a good person, but your quickness to give up on yourself (seen here) is causing you problems, I reckon.

pandaphil wrote:Oh hell, I should just stop posting in this thread entirely. I've got no business trying to offer advice when my own life is such a freakin' mess.

You've got some good advice. It's just up to the person on the receiving end to accept it or not. If it helps, it's good advice. If it doesn't, then it maybe wasn't. Not terribly complicated.
Agreeing with muliebrity as well.

pandaphil wrote: I wish I had your problem. I think I may have too much, and nobody to share it with.

Sharing is caring, correct?
Then:
Sharing=caring
Care for someone
By substitution, you are now sharing for them. Fudge the grammar, and congrats, you're sharing with someone!


(This was a misguided attempt at a funny. Forgive me.)

muliebrity wrote: Let me tell you about a friend of mine.

Tell him to keep it up. I am in the same boat. 24 and actually want a relationship not just sex.

muliebrity wrote:

metalangel wrote:It works the same way for men. Billy Connolly (famous comedian) said that women need to feel loved to have sex, men need to have sex to feel loved. And it's true, a sexual rejection to a man is not just a 'not tonight', it's more of a 'you're ugly and unpleasant and I don't want to be with you'.

My reason for bringing it up was that I found that differing levels of sexual desire put a lot more strain on intimate relationships than I used to think they would, and I've found it ends up a major complaint come breakup season (approximately the months of August, September and October). I can see why it would be an issue with your girlfriend. I'll be interested to hear if this open relationship thing ends up being as okay as she claims.

I have never quite understood how my relationship with my ex ended up. It wasn't an open relationship but I knew I couldn't satisfy her needs. In the end I think I just realized that we where not meshing well and latched to the idea that she was cheating on me. Partly because I could see it happening realistically and partly because I was just scared of losing 5 years of my life.

pandaphil wrote:Oh hell, I should just stop posting in this thread entirely. I've got no business trying to offer advice when my own life is such a freakin' mess.

You make me sad. In my interactions here, at least, you seem like a genuinely good person (it's easy to tell you definitely are, actually, even with Xanatos it's easy because you can't hide a good heart under jokes about scatplay and cumbuckets). You don't seem like the sort of entitled manchild metalangel described in his response to you at all, and your advice is perfectly valid as a decent human being who has earnest emotional connections to other human beings. You're a good person, but your quickness to give up on yourself (seen here) is causing you problems, I reckon.[/quote]

Agreed. Please do not stop posting. I for another enjoy your input, you try your best to help and you are honest as best you can. It is nice to see that still. You have restored a little faith in humanity for me. Seriously don't stop posting please.

muliebrity wrote: Ayup. Daddy issues, histrionic personality, compulsive lying: getting a little tail doesn't seem worth all of that when there are plenty of lonely and sensible ladies about.

Indeed, but it's not an easy subject to broach. There's another guy at school who's in an open relationship because he's a big sleazebag, and makes all sorts of inappropriate advances at everything that moves. I don't want to be tarred with the same brush.

That's a rung below first world problems. Them's yuppie suburbia problems.

I don't think the guy has a chance anyway - for one thing, he's a virgin (she hates having to teach) and for another, when she first expressed interest in dating him, he blanked her for a month. If things do start to work out, it won't be for very long with these tattered scraps.

You don't seem like the sort of entitled manchild metalangel described in his response to you at all, and your advice is perfectly valid as a decent human being who has earnest emotional connections to other human beings. You're a good person, but your quickness to give up on yourself (seen here) is causing you problems, I reckon.

All I intended was a word of caution, that you can and will be put on that second ladder if you're not careful. It takes a lot of nerve to keep trying and being shot down, because after each one you'll wonder what one stupid little thing you could have done differently that would have made everything work out perfectly. Oh, if only I'd done this! If only I'd waited until that. Etc etc etc. It either happens or it doesn't.

My girlfriend took an instant liking to me the moment she saw me, all she knew was that I was her friend's housemate. The getting to know each other (as people) phase pretty much piggybacked on the the trip around the bases (as lovers), why? Because she made the move of 'hey, you're cute, you want to go out?'

A previous girlfriend (the one I mentioned before) I saw from a distance and took a shine to right away. The guy (again, the one mentioned before) introduced us, and she knew I was interested. After one or two nights out as part of a group of friends in this club we frequented, she planted a big kiss on me before going home. The next time we met up she sat down on my lap and we ended up back at my house.

In both these cases, very little time 'becoming friends' first. There are exceptions, of course. Another girl from the same club and I had just known each other for quite a while, as part of the same group of friends. Her house was on the way home to mine so we walked together, and ended up deciding to jump into bed for some fun.

My point is that you should just try making your feelings clear. Don't get into bullshit doublespeak or building up all sorts of weird fantasies of how the situation will go, practically like a movie scene, with you saying this and her saying that and that's how you'll ask her out. Stuff NEVER works out like you plan it. I'm not saying you have to go up to complete strangers, but rather someone who at least knows your name and has seen you around a couple of times or whatever.