Katawa Shoujo Forums

WorldlyWiseman wrote:Does anyone know what kind of LGBT culture there is in Japan?

I think this is what you are looking for: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_S_(genre)

It is fairly accepted in Japan for schoolgirls to have "special" relationships with each other. But it is something that they are expected to eventually outgrow as they get older. Misha crushing on Shizune would not be a real shocker in real life in Japan.

Wikipedia wrote:In 1936, Class S stories were banned by the Japanese government.[6] As co-educational schools became more prominent, Class S relationships became more discreet.[1]

Hrrmmmm...

It's these bits that keep popping up that bother me. On one hand, the law seems to be mostly progressive on the issue (except for marriage). On the other hand, the bits about celebrities and other public figures coming out make it sound like it's a pretty big deal to just say so. Maybe the stigma has more to do with it being viewed as adolescent behavior? Misha just waiting for her 'silly schoolgirl crush' to go away?

Not dismissing you, ravenlord, if that has been your experience with it then I'll take your word for it.

Guess 4LS did a good job accurately portraying the backwardsness and unabashed xenophobia of japanese society then.

Just waiting for some japanophile to jump down my throat.

WorldlyWiseman wrote:Maybe the stigma has more to do with it being viewed as adolescent behavior? Misha just waiting for her 'silly schoolgirl crush' to go away?

Yeah exactly, it is seen as a schoolgirl thing, ok as practice for a normal adult relationship when school is done and they are out in the real world. If it persists past that, then people start to notice.

Pickman's Model wrote:Guess 4LS did a good job accurately portraying the backwardsness and unabashed xenophobia of japanese society then.

Just waiting for some japanophile to jump down my throat.

I wouldn't worry too much. Obvious troll is obvious -- not too many people will jump for that kind of bait.

Just because it's trollbait doesn't mean it isn't the truth. Asking the pertinent questions of expatriates and people who've lived in Japan long enough for the rose tint to wash out of their glasses will reveal that it's a society with issues.

Where some of these issues might stem from looks kind of interesting. I keep seeing reasons to believe that there's a double standard concerning homosexuality. There's tons of information and historical evidence (according to wiki) about male relationships, but very little for females. It suggests that it was considered more 'okay' for guys to do this on the side than for women to do this at all. Might have to do with the expectation for women to get married and have kids? I'm not sure how this plays out in the modern day except for occasional entries about manga like the one ravenlord showed me. Wikipedia may not be the best source, of course, and I may be misreading things.

I just googled hard enough to find an expatriate forum. Not gonna lie, I'm doing some of this research in the name of writing something from Misha's perspective, and I was hoping someone from Japan could just throw me an anecdote or two without me having to register somewhere else. I guess I can ask around that forum if I have any more questions.

Chalking Misha's painful loyalty to her just having a specific 'type' might be a better and less intensive way to go, though. I can imagine Misha being someone who feels like she needs to be useful and having that lead her into the arms of someone who would make use of her. It could be a slightly more universal conflict and have less to do with the politics of a country I am not familiar with.

Synthus wrote:Just because it's trollbait doesn't mean it isn't the truth. Asking the pertinent questions of expatriates and people who've lived in Japan long enough for the rose tint to wash out of their glasses will reveal that it's a society with issues.

Doing that here is trolling, pure and simple. Every country has issues, but mud raking for that here is obvious troll bait. A simple google search would show him where to get that info, if that is what he really wanted. What he wants instead is negative attention, via simple trolling, as seen from his posts in other threads. Trolls are free to post what they want, and normal posters are free to call them on it. Welcome to the internet

ravenlord wrote:Doing that here is trolling, pure and simple. Every country has issues, but mud raking for that here is obvious troll bait. A simple google search would show him where to get that info, if that is what he really wanted. What he wants instead is negative attention, via simple trolling, as seen from his posts in other threads. Trolls are free to post what they want, and normal posters are free to call them on it. Welcome to the internet

Sure I was baiting a bit, but it really is true that the game does a good job of touching upon something which is deemed by society to be a taboo. Japanese society has always had this form of stigma (just look at how Hibakusha were/are treated); people who didn't actively choose to be a certain way being treated as scum. If Misha is indeed a lesbian, she'll probably end up either becoming an outcast, or being forced to marry a man (which she may not refuse because her self-esteem is so shit, plus she wants to "cure" herself) who basically rapes her unknowingly every night. Don't try to pretend Japan is as tolerant as other first world countries when it comes to these things.

ravenlord wrote:

Synthus wrote:Just because it's trollbait doesn't mean it isn't the truth. Asking the pertinent questions of expatriates and people who've lived in Japan long enough for the rose tint to wash out of their glasses will reveal that it's a society with issues.

Doing that here is trolling, pure and simple. Every country has issues, but mud raking for that here is obvious troll bait. A simple google search would show him where to get that info, if that is what he really wanted. What he wants instead is negative attention, via simple trolling, as seen from his posts in other threads. Trolls are free to post what they want, and normal posters are free to call them on it. Welcome to the internet

Regardless of how much butthurt it causes in weeaboos, the fact remains that it is somewhat relevant to the discussion. You're free to dismiss his entire argument because 'lol 2/10 troll', or you can choose to explore the point. I really don't know how much realism 4LS was aiming to inject into the setting, but if they were directly importing Japanese cultural taboos and biases this could be a very interesting discussion.

ravenlord wrote: Doing that here is trolling, pure and simple. Every country has issues, but mud raking for that here is obvious troll bait. A simple google search would show him where to get that info, if that is what he really wanted. What he wants instead is negative attention, via simple trolling, as seen from his posts in other threads. Trolls are free to post what they want, and normal posters are free to call them on it. Welcome to the internet

Wait, was I trolling for asking about it in the first place, or was Pickman trolling for being irreverent about it?

The fact of the matter is that the answer isn't easily googlable. Even the manga article you gave me has things in it that I can take one way or another, and the internet discussion boards I'm finding wobble back and forth. The only consensus I can reach is that there's a culture-wide don't-ask-don't-tell policy on the subject (unless you have wild amounts of money or influence). There seems to be a lot of encouragement to be discreet about it unless you're around people you trust, which seems to be the same operating procedure as in the US. Technically, that's enough to write the scenes I had in mind, but further discussion is always interesting. How an environment like this might affect Misha in 2007 is an interesting mental exercise, but as I mentioned before the effect might be undercut by the presence of the internet.

Anyway, you can call me lazy for trying to get an easy answer out of this here board, but calling people troll is just trying to shut down a potentially cool discussion.

Synthus wrote: Regardless of how much butthurt it causes in weeaboos, the fact remains that it is somewhat relevant to the discussion. You're free to dismiss his entire argument because 'lol 2/10 troll', or you can choose to explore the point. I really don't know how much realism 4LS was aiming to inject into the setting, but if they were directly importing Japanese cultural taboos and biases this could be a very interesting discussion.

I can't actually tell if 4LS really incorporated this part of the setting into the game. Misha being into girls is only brought up in relation to its effect on her and Shizune's friendship. The writer did have other parts of Japanese culture that didn't come up elsewhere in the game (the train system, Tanabata, student cleaning duties), so he could have been aware of this other part of it and just chose not to focus on it too much for storytelling reasons, or he wasn't that aware of it and just went with Misha not wanting to talk about it because people don't just talk about those things. (woo long sentence)

That wouldn't answer why she doesn't try for another girl, but that could be chalked up to Shizoon being sooooooo awesome~.

VVV - Misha's mouth drools like a dog at the thought of Shizune, obviously

I need a mop to clean up the goo dripping from the italics.

Pickman's Model wrote:If Misha is indeed a lesbian, she'll probably end up either becoming an outcast, or being forced to marry a man (which she may not refuse because her self-esteem is so shit, plus she wants to "cure" herself) who basically rapes her unknowingly every night.

Or she could move to America and start a new life like she said that she was going to.

WorldlyWiseman wrote:The writer did have other parts of Japanese culture that didn't come up elsewhere in the game (the train system, Tanabata, student cleaning duties)

As we are already treading slightly off-topic, might I ask what you mean by those, specifically? (Okay, the festival thing is clear, and I suppose students have to tidy up their classrooms before they leave, but what about the trains?)

PS: I find it a bit humorous that you place the game's story to occur exactly in the year 2007. Never thought about it like that. Is it really stated somewhere, or are you just thinking about the game's inception date?

The writer did have other parts of Japanese culture that didn't come up elsewhere in the game (the train system, Tanabata, student cleaning duties)

The trains and Tanabata also show up in Lilly's route.

WorldlyWiseman wrote:Wait, was I trolling for asking about it in the first place, or was Pickman trolling for being irreverent about it?

Pickman was the troll. Your question was a good one, which is why I linked you to what you were looking for. It is an interesting topic, in all countries