Katawa Shoujo Forums

Oddball wrote: his has nothing to do with telling another person they're a dick. This is HER opening up and saying she's a horrible person then ... doing the exact same things she's been doing anyway.

She's not doing the things she thinks are right, she's doing the things she knows are wrong because that's all she knows. She doesn't take time to reevaluate herself.

Her "big revelation" comes from the fact that she doesn't know what to do with herself or how to lead people. hen right after that, with no conflict, no soul searching, or anything else, she comes right out and says she's decided she wants to help people and make them feel good. First, this is pretty much exactly what she had already said a few acts ago and second, the whole reasons she's mad at Lilly is because Lilly spent more time helping people instead of ignoring them and working on the student council.

She already knows herself pretty well. There's not much to 'reevaluate'. I personally took that whole revelation scene as 'I apparently can't lead people in traditional ways so I'm going to find a way to work around that and not leave so much emotional wreckage in my wake.'

Shizune's path, like Rin's, takes someone who can personally understand her. She views the world as a place where she can affect parts of it to make things happen, and those changes in and of themselves are rewarding to her. She can fall into the trap of treating people people like things, and knows this. She has to make an effort to remember that they are people. To be the leader she wants to be, she will have to think of them as both things with functions AND people with limits. It is a fine line and I think that by the end of the game, she can walk it.

Pickman's Model wrote: Yeah, she's definitely more of a "bro" than any of the other girls. My big issue with her is really the way she treats Misha. If she'd only have THAT TALK with her, everything would be alright, but Shizune seems incapable of discussing emotions, which I see as a possible hinderance when it comes to the development of her and Hisao's relationship. Feels like they're never gonna be more than friends who happen to fuck, which is probably alright for Shizune, but Hisao seems like the kinda guy who'd want more than that.

I think her and Misha DID try to have THAT TALK, and that's what brought about the 'cheer Misha up' arc.

With Hisao and Shizune as a couple, I think a lot of people are looking for that things that they arbitrarily think that a couple should do - cuddling, holding hands, pet names, promises of a lifetime of love, and such - and come to the conclusion that a lack of it must mean that their bond is somehow weaker. It's not an entirely crazy judgement, a lot of us here have grown up in monogamous societies, but put some thought into it and the difference between a really good pair of friends and an 'official couple' and a married couple really is arbitrary. The separation has more to do with what other people think of the relationship and what its boundaries are. The people who place high value on being socially accepted as 'married' and playing that part are going to look down on couples who do things more loosely and don't follow those roles exactly.

So Hisao and Shizune would be 'friends' who throw their energy into larger and larger projects and blow off steam with some light bondage sex. And that is fine.

Synthus wrote:I said no such thing, man. What I said was that it feels lackluster if you read it casually without delving deeper and trying to understand Shizune. If we're going to have a proper discussion, you need to stop misrepresenting me.

I empathised with Misha while having absolutely no sympathy for her. I've been in Misha's shoes. It sucks, and Misha isn't doing herself any favours. Playing the 'nice guy' hanger-on and hoping the object of your affection does a U-turn is pretty much the worst way to deal with it.

Shizune hit all the right buttons for me from the very start, whereas Misha did the exact opposite. Also, I accept that this is my fat prejudice (and maybe misogyny, depending on which asspained feminists you ask) at work, but whenever I look at Misha something in the back of my head goes 'future fatty' and I end up being turned off completely.

In keeping with your fat joke, I wanted to bring up Misha and her parfaits. A lot of attention is paid in the writing to how she lets them melt together, and I asked the devs if this detail was meant to illustrate how Misha handles her emotions. It would make sense, especially since we get more overt description of Shizune separating her food and how she compartmentalizes her emotions. They never answered me, but seeing Misha as someone for whom there is truly only 'One Love' (I'm misusing the term slightly, don't jump me rastas).

Her attraction to Shizune spills over into loyalty and those feed off of each other, then she feels loyal to Hisao as her friend and that spills into her attraction a bit even though she isn't really attracted to men in general. She doesn't make any effort to manage all this devotion, even as it hurts her, even though she seems to know that Shizune cannot reciprocate. She may not know how.

This is all conjecture on my part, of course. And I'm saving the latter part of your quote, for posteriority

Sin of my sins wrote:Shizune has over 100 votes? Some of you must love the idea of being under the toe of a bossy woman then, I presume.

I am a-okay with being a smaller part of a larger project if I can trust the leadership to step up and get shit done. I am a-okay with dedicating myself to someone who thinks enough of me to ask me to step up and get shit done. Fear is not the mind-killer, complacency is.

Sin of my sins wrote:Shizune has over 100 votes? Some of you must love the idea of being under the toe of a bossy woman then, I presume.

I'm not gonna be like Hisao and get tossed around by that girl and tie at rock-paper-scissors too.

Woop, more proper discussion! Going to get to the rest of it when I get back from work, but for now I'll respond to MS first.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Synthus wrote:The result is a lackluster and disjointed story.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:The rest of the arc felt, as you said, comparatively lackluster in an emotional sense. But on my second, more critical playthrough, I didn't feel much more emotionally connected to Shizune and her story.

Synthus wrote:I said no such thing, man. What I said was that it feels lackluster if you read it casually without delving deeper and trying to understand Shizune. If we're going to have a proper discussion, you need to stop misrepresenting me.

I'm not misrepresenting you. We were saying the exact same thing. On my first playthrough, the arc felt emotionally lackluster (with the exceptions of the scenes I mentioned) because I wasn't making the conscious effort to read into it. Christ, now it's starting to not even sound like an actual word. Anyway, I was saying that on my second playthrough, I did find a greater appreciation for the arc itself, but I didn't find Shicchan all that much more sympathetic.

Ok, let me break it down from my perspective.

My assertion was that a critical playthrough got you that much more feels. You cited your own experience with it and said that your experience contradicted mine (i.e. more critical reading =/= more feels), with the caveat that a few scenes hit you in the feels even with a casual playthrough.

...you know what, fuck this, it's a silly semantic argument.

Synthus wrote:...you know what, fuck this, it's a silly semantic argument.

Haha, isn't it, though?

Yep, here we go again. I went to sleep for the night and the board grew 2 pages more. Load up the guns, I guess we are doing this again

Oddball wrote:his has nothing to do with telling another person they're a dick. This is HER opening up and saying she's a horrible person then ... doing the exact same things she's been doing anyway.

She's not doing the things she thinks are right, she's doing the things she knows are wrong because that's all she knows. She doesn't take time to reevaluate herself.

Her "big revelation" comes from the fact that she doesn't know what to do with herself or how to lead people. hen right after that, with no conflict, no soul searching, or anything else, she comes right out and says she's decided she wants to help people and make them feel good. First, this is pretty much exactly what she had already said a few acts ago and second, the whole reasons she's mad at Lilly is because Lilly spent more time helping people instead of ignoring them and working on the student council.

Oh really? It doesn't? I'm surprised this came from a Lilly fan because--hmm, I don't know, didn't she made Hisao realize his mistake when she told him that he has been trying to run away from his problem rather than face it? Like when he's dealing with Hanako?

Oh wait, that is in Hanako's arc, so it doesn't concern Lilly at all. So it DOES affect someone if you tell them 'hey, you're being a dick' or 'you're doing it wrong'

And again, you misinterpret what I meant. She's doing things she THINKS is right; not exactly right in what others think--or in this case on what YOU think--but what SHE thinks. And then you turn your words around and said that she doesn't take time to reevaluate yourself. What?
Why do you think she said 'I have been wrong with xx' or 'maybe I have yy'? You've been saying that over and over and now you said that she doesn't take time to reevaluate herself? Dude, saying 'I think I have xxx on something' or 'maybe I have yyy on someone' is called reevaluating, and she has done more than reevaluating. Sad thing is, no one even come up to his face and tell her what they think is the right way and so she continue what she think is right--not what others think is right.

Now think of it in a bigger context. Let's say I have your best friend/most important person tied to a railroad track and an entire continent under hostage or a threat of mass genocide. The train is 5 seconds away from crushing your best friend/most important person, and my hand is also 5 seconds away from pushing that button and perform the genocide (a la Liquid Otacon with that nanomachines, if you want to make it cool). You can only save ONE of the other. Your best friend/most important person or save the continent? Which will you choose?

This applies similarly to the situation Shizune and Lilly is doing. Why is Shizune mad at her? Because Lilly picked that one person and neglected her duties for the others. Sure, she's compassion, but if she is positioned in a situation where someone else's life is on the line, she'll make the wrong choice and ends up creating more damage than saving it.

You get what I'm saying? 'Sacrifice one for the greater good', a principal Shizune kept and maintain discipline and order in the Student Council after the crowd left. It is impossible, I say again, impossible by physical and mental means to run a Student Council with only 3 members (in other routes, 2) due to the demand, it often eats up your mind and your body. But why did Shizune managed to accomplish it--this is even done with Misha who slacks most of the time and she handling all the work. So how?

She sacrificed her own freedom to enjoy 'life' in school for the benefit of others. Lilly's good at saving one, but when faced with multiple choice between one person and a crowd, she'll end up killing the entire crowd; Shizune on the other hand will save the crowd. Too bad the crowd she saves were unsympathetic to her plight and called her a 'murderer' for killing that one guy.

Oddball wrote: Shizune comes across as a bit of a bitch until you dig deeper, at which point she becomes a sympathetic character.
Being sympathetic doesn't mean she's not still a bitch. You can feel bad about a person without liking them, and Shizune doesn't seem to much care if people actually like her or not in the game. In fact, she tends to push them away purposely.

A sympathetic character doesn't equal to a sympathetic person. Get your facts straight.

Oddball wrote: I suppose two people that have already shown they care about each other and have just had a deep emotional bonding moment deciding to have sex afterwards is a bit hard for you to grasp.

I can understand why two people that are an "official" couple but don't actually show any real romantic attachment to each other deciding to have sex and then not mention it again for weeks would be more your speed.

In love, or like monkeys in heat (lust)?

I've heard a lot of 'love' bullshit from my university between friends where they had sex like crazy and ends up breaking up a few months later--girl lost her v-card and regretted it too.

Sex is sacred, and for a woman (more less a man) it signifies your purity and commitment to your partner and how much you are willing to sacrifice. It's not mere enjoyment or simple pleasure, it is a commitment, a promise, a bond that ties two person in an oath made by blood. Woman, especially virgins, would more or less think things through long and hard before she decide to give herself to you as she only have ONE CHANCE to make the right choice. In Hanako's route, for example, she gave herself to Hisao believing that would save their friendship--not the solution I'd pick, but nonetheless considering her character she had made that decision and thought about it after he showed her his scar. In Shizune's route, it is similarly applied with her trying to understand/relate to Hisao; a way to overcome that barrier made by the different 'world' they live in, to tell him 'hey, I'm still here by your side to love you. Don't pull yourself away from me'

Lilly, on the other hand, confess to him "I love you!", return to the cottage, then "have sex with me". Yep, sex on first date. Not to mention, she leaves for Scotland--and in her neutral ending, she broke up with him and everything is assumed to have return to how it once was minus Lilly.

Following that mentality, Lilly would most likely find 'love' in Scotland and does the same thing again--difference is, the guy will be very much pissed that she's 'second hand'.
And I first thought Emi was in heat; I was wrong, she used it to as an escape route from her own issues. Lilly? That's just a 'healthy adolescent sex drive' none other interpreted as 'lust'. A closet pervert.

oh, and hey, she admitted it herself that she is a pervert.

Shizune has over 100 votes? Some of you must love the idea of being under the toe of a bossy woman then, I presume.

On the contrary; it means that 100 of us are actually romantic and assertive men who would do all they can to understand the woman/person they are paired up with.

...unlike the other 65% who would prefer the woman to make all their move and act romantic to them and get all the 'feels'.

Doraleous wrote:Yawn, anyway, these two teams need to chill the fuck out and come enjoy a smoke with us, Rin's fans.

I'd love that! Rin is my second favorite, and she's an interesting and unique girl once you understand or capable to follow her train of thoughts

Can Emi fans join?

Nothing wrong for not joining, right? WARNING: SANITY MAY BE COMPROMISED

...you know what, fuck this, it's a silly semantic argument.

Get back in the fight, soldier! It's not over until we beat them senseless like we did last two rounds...

Megumeru wrote:Sex is sacred, and for a woman (more less a man) it signifies your purity and commitment to your partner and how much you are willing to sacrifice. It's not mere enjoyment or simple pleasure, it is a commitment, a promise, a bond that ties two person in an oath made by blood. Woman, especially virgins, would more or less think things through long and hard before she decide to give herself to you as she only have ONE CHANCE to make the right choice.

Not in today's society, it ain't - I can tell you that for sure. Simple human integrity is hard to find anymore, and it dosn't help that the image of a "strong, independant woman/man" the media promotes is that of a total whorebag, who should only ever look out for nr. 1, and should have sex FOR PRACTICE (essentially), and not because they love someone. If only parents actually taught their children to critically analyze all the information (more like misinformation) constantly being blasted into their skulls, then maybe we'd have a better world. Sadly, though, the world is shit, and there's not much you can do about it, except try an uphold your own moral standards, and hopefully inspire others to follow your example - not talking about religion, btw.

With all due respect, I disagree with the views of sex that Pickman and Megumeru are espousing here. The only thing virginity means to me is that the person in question will be absolutely bloody horrible at fucking.

Sex is what you want it to be. You can tack as many labels and riders on it as you want, but at its very core it's a pleasurable physical act that you get better at with practice. The baggage resulting from the cultural conditioning against this view simply gets in the way of clear thought. People fuck for very different reasons, and none of them are any less valid than the other.

Synthus wrote:With all due respect, I disagree with the views of sex that Pickman and Megumeru are espousing here. The only thing virginity means to me is that the person in question will be absolutely bloody horrible at fucking.

Sex is what you want it to be. You can tack as many labels and riders on it as you want, but at its very core it's a pleasurable physical act that you get better at with practice. The baggage resulting from the cultural conditioning against this view simply gets in the way of clear thought. People fuck for very different reasons, and none of them are any less valid than the other.

Well, isn't that the case with everything? The way in which we experience reality is almost entirely(if not entirely) subjective. It's just that, speaking from personal experience, I've never met anyone who was a "free spirit" and weren't also emotionally stunted in some way. You know, like the kind of girls who date douchebags because their dad was a douchebag, and now they think that's the only kind of relationship they have a chance at.

Synthus wrote:With all due respect, I disagree with the views of sex that Pickman and Megumeru are espousing here. The only thing virginity means to me is that the person in question will be absolutely bloody horrible at fucking.

Sex is what you want it to be. You can tack as many labels and riders on it as you want, but at its very core it's a pleasurable physical act that you get better at with practice. The baggage resulting from the cultural conditioning against this view simply gets in the way of clear thought. People fuck for very different reasons, and none of them are any less valid than the other.

True, it is what one wants it to be. Just the same, some want it to be something other than just physical pleasure. What's wrong with that?

Sex is sacred, and for a woman (more less a man) it signifies your purity and commitment to your partner and how much you are willing to sacrifice.

And that doesn't apply to Lilly because of what reasons? Because she loved him but it was too early for her to be in love? Because she loved him but was still unsure what to do with her family? At this point, we aren't even sure if she had got the summons yet and if she had, we certainly don't know if she had made up her mind.

acewing905 wrote:

Synthus wrote:With all due respect, I disagree with the views of sex that Pickman and Megumeru are espousing here. The only thing virginity means to me is that the person in question will be absolutely bloody horrible at fucking.

Sex is what you want it to be. You can tack as many labels and riders on it as you want, but at its very core it's a pleasurable physical act that you get better at with practice. The baggage resulting from the cultural conditioning against this view simply gets in the way of clear thought. People fuck for very different reasons, and none of them are any less valid than the other.

True, it is what one wants it to be. Just the same, some want it to be something other than just physical pleasure. What's wrong with that?

Nothing's wrong with that. What's wrong is when you force your morals onto others.

And really, that was hardly Lilly and Hisao's first date. They'd already been spending a lot of time together and had shown feelings for each other. It just wasn't until the field scene that they admitted they loved each other. Or are you going to argue now that she invited him to her house and admitted she loved him out of nowhere as well?

You get what I'm saying? 'Sacrifice one for the greater good', a principal Shizune kept and maintain discipline and order in the Student Council after the crowd left. It is impossible, I say again, impossible by physical and mental means to run a Student Council with only 3 members (in other routes, 2) due to the demand, it often eats up your mind and your body. But why did Shizune managed to accomplish it--this is even done with Misha who slacks most of the time and she handling all the work. So how?

You say this like it's some admirable thing, where Shizune was trust into a position that she shouldn't have been able to handle and suffered because of it. Shizune was directly responsible for all the other members of the student council walking out on her. And as far as handling all the work, she openly admits she fakes quite a bit of the paperwork.

In Shizune's route, it is similarly applied with her trying to understand/relate to Hisao; a way to overcome that barrier made by the different 'world' they live in, to tell him 'hey, I'm still here by your side to love you. Don't pull yourself away from me'

So Lilly's explination of "I love yu,you almost died and I can't stand it I never want you to leave me!" was wrong but Shizune's "I can't even understand you, let's have sex." is fine. Quite the double standard there.

Following that mentality, Lilly would most likely find 'love' in Scotland and does the same thing again--

Hold up. A minute ago she was a virgin that had never had a boyfriend before and now you're talking about how she's just going to go find somebody and sleep with them right off the bat. It's like you're trying to pick two different views of the character and mash them together to justify your hatred.

difference is, the guy will be very much pissed that she's 'second hand'.

How judgement and close minded of you.

On the contrary; it means that 100 of us are actually romantic and assertive men who would do all they can to understand the woman/person they are paired up with.

...unlike the other 65% who would prefer the woman to make all their move and act romantic to them and get all the 'feels'.

So the romantic assertive ones are the people hat DON'T get to make any choices in their realtionship and DON'T have any real romantic scenes in their story and the people that enjoy actually being able to connect with somebody emotionally without having to do a thesis paper on their every conversation are the ones in the wrong. You have a very interesting world view.

Get back in the fight, soldier! It's not over until we beat them senseless like we did last two rounds...

That sounds about like Shizune alright. Everything has to be a competition that you can win. No such thing as compromise or understanding a different point of view.

I think really what this all boils down to is you prefer somebody you have to study, figure out, and work your ass off for (and with), while most people prefer somebody who's company they can just relax and enjoy things with without having to stress and examine every little thing.

Ironically, Hisao's mentality to their problems in both their routes is exactly the same thing. He just assumes they can work things out without his input and stands back and tries to let them handle everything.

Oddball wrote:

acewing905 wrote:

Synthus wrote:With all due respect, I disagree with the views of sex that Pickman and Megumeru are espousing here. The only thing virginity means to me is that the person in question will be absolutely bloody horrible at fucking.

Sex is what you want it to be. You can tack as many labels and riders on it as you want, but at its very core it's a pleasurable physical act that you get better at with practice. The baggage resulting from the cultural conditioning against this view simply gets in the way of clear thought. People fuck for very different reasons, and none of them are any less valid than the other.

True, it is what one wants it to be. Just the same, some want it to be something other than just physical pleasure. What's wrong with that?

Nothing's wrong with that. What's wrong is when you force your morals onto others.

And really, that was hardly Lilly and Hisao's first date. They'd already been spending a lot of time together and had shown feelings for each other. It just wasn't until the field scene that they admitted they loved each other. Or are you going to argue now that she invited him to her house and admitted she loved him out of nowhere as well?

Forcing one's morals on another is wrong. But insulting someone who chooses to remain a virgin is also wrong. Of course, I myself don't see anything wrong with Hisao and Lilly having sex there. Their sex scenes were some of the most natural in the game. But there are also people who have strong beliefs like no pre-marital sex. Saying that they are "absolutely bloody horrible at fucking" is just not necessary, even if they surely would be inexperienced.

acewing905 wrote:Forcing one's morals on another is wrong. But insulting someone who chooses to remain a virgin is also wrong. Of course, I myself don't see anything wrong with Hisao and Lilly having sex there. Their sex scenes were some of the most natural in the game. But there are also people who have strong beliefs like no pre-marital sex. Saying that they are "absolutely bloody horrible at fucking" is just not necessary, even if they surely would be inexperienced.

One comes with the other. If you're inexperienced, you're likely going to be a shitty fuck. There's all there is to it. I don't say this with any malice.

Megumeru wrote:

...you know what, fuck this, it's a silly semantic argument.

Get back in the fight, soldier! It's not over until we beat them senseless like we did last two rounds...

Man, I'd love to. It's just that I really can't be fucked to argue with someone who'd Rush Limbaugh Shizune in a bloody argument.

Synthus wrote:One comes with the other. If you're inexperienced, you're likely going to be a shitty fuck. There's all there is to it. I don't say this with any malice.

Really isn't much of a "code of conduct" when it comes to sex. At it's basic level, sex either purely done for procreation or a form of stress relief, and I don't really see how you can be bad at either, unless the problem is in your pants. And it's not just about getting off; there's an emotional aspect to it, as well - especially if you're of the female gender... or so studies indicate, anyway. All in all, Hisao seems to do fairly well SEXXING on all routes, aside from when he's too busy nearly dying to bongswap the slimepit.

Well, this topic has suddenly become crude and tasteless.

Ayayayaya...
when will I have the chance to finish the next chapter now
oh well, I don't mind doing this any who

Now first off, on the topic of sex.
Now let me clear this up, I don't care if you lost your V-card or not or what religion you're in or whether you uphold the tradition of keeping that V-card for your future spouse or what; I don't give a damn, it's your life and your way to use it--in short, I am not pushing 'ideals' upon others.

But let me rephrase what I have been saying: sex is a form of commitment. You can call it whatever you want, but you can never get closer to anyone else other than sex.

Now let me ask for those who have lost their V-cards.
if you have lost yours, and you're going out with say...your fifth girlfriend and she still holds her V-card. Have you ever compared her with another girl who--explicitly--did it 'better'? If so, then I'll say 'so much for a commitment' because now you're thinking of someone else rather than your current girlfriend.

But that is basically from my perspective and judgment. Why do I say it is a commitment? Because when a couple lost their V-card for the very first time together, they are basically a 'noob' on this kind of experience and only have one another to share it. In time, they both can get better at it and will only have each other in their heads.

(of course, in today's society this 'ideal' is pretty much lost in history and as often as it is sex is seen as a 'stress relief and procreation' and whatnot. I may not agree with it, but oh well that's life)

oddball wrote:And that doesn't apply to Lilly because of what reasons? Because she loved him but it was too early for her to be in love? Because she loved him but was still unsure what to do with her family? At this point, we aren't even sure if she had got the summons yet and if she had, we certainly don't know if she had made up her mind.
Nothing's wrong with that. What's wrong is when you force your morals onto others.

And really, that was hardly Lilly and Hisao's first date. They'd already been spending a lot of time together and had shown feelings for each other. It just wasn't until the field scene that they admitted they loved each other. Or are you going to argue now that she invited him to her house and admitted she loved him out of nowhere as well?

Now imagine it like this.

You went on a first date with your high school friend--let's say she just confessed to you a day before. You guys went on a romantic date, had a nice boat ride, then you take her home--oh wait, she ask you to stay at her house before. Woop, here she comes in a skimpy lingerie and simply pluck your v-card right then and there.

What's the first thing you have in mind? She's romantic? No, a pervert.
But some people think otherwise, gets along with it, and in the end regretted it--some confessions in this board refers to it and I've been hearing enough BS from my friends who lost theirs, was proud of it, then regretted it after they start remembering how their first girl was better than their second before breaking up.

and yes, they have been spending a lot of time together. But the moment you know the other party shares similar feelings with you, do you just suddenly attack him/her and throw away something that you can only give away once in a lifetime? As natural as it is, the sex between Lilly and Hisao boils down to lust sprinkled with powdery 'love'--or as what we know as a 'healthy adolescent sex drive'.

I don't care if people are doing it pre-marital and what not, but you get my point with this 'sex talk' and what it is.

oddball wrote:You say this like it's some admirable thing, where Shizune was trust into a position that she shouldn't have been able to handle and suffered because of it. Shizune was directly responsible for all the other members of the student council walking out on her. And as far as handling all the work, she openly admits she fakes quite a bit of the paperwork.

Oh, really? What Act is it? Act II? Act III? Act IV?

Or is it the time where she joked about the 'merit badge' and--for some reason--the word reached the hikikomori Kenji? KENJI of all people.

I have just went through the entire Shizune route again to disprove this, but instead I found something else. Want to know? It's about Lilly being irresponsible and missing deadline for the festival's budget report--remember that argument?

Read: Shizune, Act II, 'Spring into Action'

I knew I've read it somewhere. There's a solid, concrete proof right there that she missed the deadline and requested an extension--TWICE.
And you think Lilly who has problems with aligning priorities can do better than her? What a joke. She'll end up solving her own problems and leaving others in devastation. Admirable indeed...

oddball wrote:So Lilly's explination of "I love yu,you almost died and I can't stand it I never want you to leave me!" was wrong but Shizune's "I can't even understand you, let's have sex." is fine. Quite the double standard there.

You're comparing a 'good ending' with a 'mid-point'. It's like comparing apple and oranges; easily distinguishable.

Now let's compare the 'normal' ending with the 'bad' ending, shall we?
In the normal ending, Lilly leaves for Scotland and Hisao never realized her conflict. They broke up, continued on with their lives like normal as they watch the car leaves to the airport. Sure Lilly said 'I'm sorry Hisao', but that's about it--your standard 'goodbye' routine when you broke up with someone. Done.

In the bad ending, Shizune, Hisao, and Misha were all left devastated. Destroyed. Demolished. Crushed. Scattered; just like how the Soviet Union ended in 1991. Hisao look away in regret, Shizune shut herself completely, and Misha was left devastated--that's a chain reaction of a series of unfortunate events. But we're getting a little off-topic on this one.

Unless of course, you mean the 'middle' scene after Hisao confessed to Lilly and the night after compared with Shizune's first night with Hisao.
If it is, then I'll repeat what I said earlier before--or maybe because it has been misinterpreted again.

1. Lilly's first H-scene happened after their confession; as natural as it is, it happened too quickly--even Emi's scene occurred a few weeks after their confession. Lilly's? Right off the bat--and put it in this image that this is after you confessed to someone else and decided to have sex with that person that very night.

2. Shizune's H-scene has its build up, the time, and the flow. Your 'interpretation' is vaguely familiar to you turning a 'blind eye' (heh, 'blind eye') to what I had been explaining in many, many posts--"if it feels good, live and let live" is what I'm getting. Not quite.
It isn't because she doesn't understand Hisao and decided to throw away her v-card--like your interpretation. Throughout her route, they shared their regular tease and banter--these are common, natural interactions between them and how they show their affection with one another or, as I like to say, the 'time' to understand one another. Second, the build-up. I've explained this before up ahead, but if you're a male and you accidentally pushed down a girl and pinned her to the floor you have exactly two choices: go along with it, or apologize.

In a normal conversation where both parties can speak/hear, you'll apologize. But considering the mentality of most male's brain structure (including mine), your body would want to go along with it--especially if you're equipped with the all-famous 'healthy adolescent sex drive'. This is why I tell you to re-read her Act III, 'Closer' to get a better grip of the situation as my own explanation would probably be confusing or fall into deaf-ears (heh, deaf ears). The situation was awkward after all that and Hisao--who suppressed his 'healthy adolescent sex drive'--apologized (forgetting how to sign) and returned to his room to let it pass. Shizune knows and understands this (possibly misinterpret Hisao's action as well) and also, following her mentality of trying to make people happy, answered Hisao and told him that he doesn't have to feel awkward or distant around her; this also answers Hisao's 'healthy adolescent sex drive' and the means for them to get closer.This is the flow.

oddball wrote:Hold up. A minute ago she was a virgin that had never had a boyfriend before and now you're talking about how she's just going to go find somebody and sleep with them right off the bat. It's like you're trying to pick two different views of the character and mash them together to justify your hatred.

Hold up a minute, who said she's going to find a boyfriend immediately after she left? It's just your own imagination and interpretation on my justification.

Life goes on, the relationship between Hisao and Lilly is over, they're all going their separate paths. Of course it's logical to look for someone else and--considering her 'healthy adolescent sex drive' I will not be too surprised if she repeats the step she did with Hisao like 'ABC'.

How old are they? 18-19? Life is still young and long. Disappointed or not is that other individual due to her being 'second hand' is up to whoever has her--if it's me, then I'll be damn disappointed.

I don't hate Lilly; 'hate' is a very-very strong word, and words are mightier than the pen. These are my defense against your attacks towards Shizune, to which I defended using live ammunition.

oddball wrote:So the romantic assertive ones are the people hat DON'T get to make any choices in their realtionship and DON'T have any real romantic scenes in their story and the people that enjoy actually being able to connect with somebody emotionally without having to do a thesis paper on their every conversation are the ones in the wrong. You have a very interesting world view.

are you attacking my arguments, or are you attacking me? Because if it is one of your 'jokes' I find it hardly funny--at all. Well, if my last statement actually offended you then I shall apologize for that. Emotions do tend to get the better of judgment, after all (this is also true with Lilly)

No choices? Does Hisao ever strictly been given a direct order by Shizune to do 'xx' or 'yy' without regards? The door that leads to him leaving the student council is right there all along, did he took it? Nope. Who said you're in the wrong? You're the one who interpret it that way. And thesis? I answer as natural as I would in a debate, so if this is how it goes it...goes.

What makes us romantic and assertive? We have a choice--we can let her/our partner do all the work, warm up to us, and make us 'feel good' with all the 'feels' of having a girlfriend, or both of us can try to talk and understand one another that made both me and my partner 'feel good' with one another. There's one side where the partner made the move and the other respond, and there's another side where both parties made the move and responded--the former being Lilly's, the latter being Shizune's.
There's plenty of romantic scenes; love and romance isn't bred through 'words of love' and what-not--everybody can say that, even trained bears and dolphins can do that. Actions are what show that you love someone, but it doesn't have to be physical; commitment and trust can be considered part of actions, and that meant a lot more than saying 'I love you' to your partner/lover/girlfriend (so if you have a partner, give her a hug, take her for a walk, ask her out, correct her if she's wrong, and stop staring at some other girl's boobies when they pass by).

So I don't understand quite exactly what is 'wrong' with you liking Lilly. Not everybody like Shizune, and I can understand that--but those who did took the initiative to understand her as a whole while reading through her route. That is what makes us romantic and assertive. Probably how I phrase the punch seems a little offensive; if so, I apologize for that.

Oddball wrote:That sounds about like Shizune alright. Everything has to be a competition that you can win. No such thing as compromise or understanding a different point of view.

It's never a competition. To me, it's war and both sides were given similar amount of resources to push in and win--it just depends on how it is utilized. Guest Poster and Mirrormn pulled a lot of good points, and that's why I really-really enjoy discussing/debating/etc. here a few posts back.

Hell, life is a war basically. Want to get into a good university? You fight it with someone else you don't know to get that empty slot. Want a good job? Do a good interview and impress the employer enough so they'll hire you instead of that other guy who came into the room five minutes ago. Want that girl for your girlfriend? You're trying to understand the 'enemy', but to do so you need to understand yourself. Sun Tzu's "Art of War" sums up life nicely IMO. But that's just me.

I know when to stop and cease, and as far as it is concerned this new debate is building up to a massive atomic race that will explode any minute--a 'Cold War' going 'hot'. I don't mind stopping this discussion anytime, but I'll tell you that I stepped up and pull up another 'thesis' like this to defend my side from yours.

That's why I said "Welp, here we go again" one-two pages back and "are we REALLY doing this again" and thus, this is my response and how it came to be for the side. You can keep pushing this as much as you want, and I'll stand my ground as hard as I can.

But again, I'll propose this: shall we end this here?