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Atario wrote:

Liminaut wrote:When Lilly is confessing to Hisao in the field she makes Hisao promise that he will never leave, all the while she knows that she's going to be leaving him to go to Scotland. She knows this all throughout the arc, but she never tells Hisao until Akira forces things.

Absolutely not. She never knows what she's going to do till Hisao presumes she's leaving, which is her signal that he doesn't care that enough about her to ask her to stay. So she says "yeah, you're right, I'm going… I've always known I was going, yup". This despite just having told him she didn't let him know yet because she hadn't decided yet. She's indecisive, not a bitch.

You have a good point, but still. Lilly has this major decision in her life that could massively effect Hisao,and Lilly keeps this to herself. It would be better for the relationship if she shared this information, especially if she is indecisive. Lilly and Hisao could work things out intentionally, instead of the mess that happened. Considering that Lilly demanded that Hisao never leaver, when she knew she could not make that same promise back to Hisao ... What the hell, Lilly?

While we're on the subject of Lilly, what kind of total dick parents give their child a name that's not pronounceable in the child's native language?

Lilly has two native languages.

Look at the wiki http://katawashoujo.wikia.com/wiki/Lilly. Lilly's name is pronounced "Riri".

No. That's just the closest Japanese can come to her actual name, which is Lilly, in English, in roman letters.

What you say makes the dickishness even more dickly. *Lilly* know how her name is supposed to be pronounced ... and every day she has to listen to her classmates, friends, even her lover get it wrong. It's not hopeless of course, but a lot of Japanese can't even hear the difference between L and R (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJHT99lryaI)

And now I have this image of Lilly just losing at and going off on her mother: "My name is goddamn Riri! That's how they pronounce it in my home country! If you don't like it then why the hell did you name me that!"

Yes, I know, anger like that is massively out of character for Lilly -- which is why it would be such a terrifying spectacle if/when she does snap.

... and now I have this completely out of character image of Lilly as a Scottish punk with bright blue mohawk ...

Mirage_GSM wrote:

Absolutely not. She never knows what she's going to do till Hisao presumes she's leaving, which is her signal that he doesn't care that enough about her to ask her to stay.

That this is only your interpretation. A lot of people - me included - disagree.

Here's the thing, though. The only evidence to back up the "bitch" interpretation is Lilly's answer of "some… time" after Hisao asks how long she's known she's going.

That's a hesitant, monumentally vauge reply, and easy to make up on the spot. One that doesn't even necessarily say she's known for any appreciable length of time at all, much less the entire time. "Some time" could mean anything from a millisecond on up!

Now, what's the evidence for the "indecisive" interpretation?

First, Lilly's reaction when she finds out Akira told Hisao about the summons. She seems annoyed and confused; she says she wanted to know what her decision was before telling him. This would have to mean she didn't know yet, since she hadn't intended to tell him yet. She's annoyed that Akira's forced it out into the open, and confused because she still hasn't made up her mind.

Second, when Hisao asks what she's going to do, she doesn't say. She instead gives a few weak reasons why it would be ok to go. Hisao is the one who just up and tells her she's going, and barrels forward with the assumption without even letting her say yea or nay.

Third, the whole history of their relationship. As you point out, she begged him never to leave her. They said they loved one another. They went on dates. They had sex numerous times. They habitually slept over in one another's rooms. They made the relationship known to their friends. All indications of sincere involvement.

But despite all that, some choose to believe she's a huge lying bitch, harboring this plot to use Hisao and throw him away. I'm a little dumbfounded as to why, when simple indecision explains it perfectly.

Remember Hanlon's Razor!

Liminaut wrote:You have a good point, but still. Lilly has this major decision in her life that could massively effect Hisao,and Lilly keeps this to herself. It would be better for the relationship if she shared this information, especially if she is indecisive. Lilly and Hisao could work things out intentionally, instead of the mess that happened.

I'm certainly not saying she's blameless. Either one of them could have solved the problem well in advance of the deadline; she by being open with her dilemma, he by being open with his feelings. Neither did till it was almost too late. There's plenty of blame to go around.

What you say makes the dickishness even more dickly. *Lilly* know how her name is supposed to be pronounced ... and every day she has to listen to her classmates, friends, even her lover get it wrong.

Heh. Well, not that bad. As Mirage pointed out, it's kind of a blended L/R thing. Anyway, pretty much any English-language name would be somewhat off when run through the Japanese wringer. So unless Mom was just going to give up and go with all Japanese names (and she already used Akira, as far as I know the only Scottish/Japanese overlap name), the issue would be there regardless.

But hey, maybe it just gives her more foreign exotic mystique!

Yes, I know, anger like that is massively out of character for Lilly -- which is why it would be such a terrifying spectacle if/when she does snap.

Another chance to use the single-line sprite!

... and now I have this completely out of character image of Lilly as a Scottish punk with bright blue mohawk ...

"Mother, it is clearly the case that the Queen ain't no human being! [sips tea from a dented tin cup with a skull and crossbones embossed in it]"

Lilly probably could have helped things by bringing it up for discussion early on, indecision or not. So she's not blameless...

...But it's still mostly Akira's and Hisao's fault. Lilly was forced into action before she was prepared, first by Akira opening her big mouth then by Hisao barreling forward with assumptions, refusal to voice protest, and stubborn insistence that she already decided to leave even though she never said as much. I'd say Hisao's the one being a giant dick in the whole situation.

Mirage_GSM wrote:Well, I don't think Emi is broken... She is still functioning.
But in that end she has shown to be unable to form a healthy relationship twice now, and that is only partly Hisao's fault. Not being able to open up about an event that is so far in the past even to a boyfriend does not speak well for her ability to overcome that problem in the future...
There are other interpretations of course, but that was what I was thinking at the time.

I won't argue that the ending wasn't bad or that she doesn't have major problems ahead of herself. I just think that compared to some of the others, especially Rin, she is in much better shape and has a decent chance to overcome her problems. I am not even sure she is worse off than she was in the beginning. She made an attempt to open up to someone on her own terms and it didn't work out. Of course there is a chance that she won't try that again anytime soon. It is also possible that she recognizes that she had the right general idea, but Hisao wasn't the right person for that.

Ritter Delorges wrote:She made an attempt to open up to someone on her own terms and it didn't work out.

...When? She makes no attempt to open up at all until the good end.

Unless you count "I'll hook up with this guy then fuck him a lot to cover for the fact that I can't form any actually meaningful attachments, all the while remaining closed off!" an attempt...

Potato wrote:Akira opening her big mouth

I don't blame her, though. The deadline was looming — about a week.

Atario wrote:

Potato wrote:Akira opening her big mouth

I don't blame her, though. The deadline was looming — about a week.

Yeah, Lilly probably would've run out the clock otherwise...Mostly Hisao's fault then.

It would be interesting to see what would have happened of Akira never said anything. I would like to think Lilly would end up snapping and ether Hisao says something to comfort and help her then she stays with Hisao or he screws up and says something that makes her decide to leave

The only evidence to back up the "bitch" interpretation is Lilly's answer of "some… time" after Hisao asks how long she's known she's going.

No that's not the only thing. There's quite a lot of subtext, both in the scene at the Shanghai and in the scene with Akira and a few other scenes as well.

Second, when Hisao asks what she's going to do, she doesn't say. She instead gives a few weak reasons why it would be ok to go. Hisao is the one who just up and tells her she's going, and barrels forward with the assumption without even letting her say yea or nay.

Maybe you should reread the scene.
Hisao outright asks her what she decided to do: "What did you decide to do, in the end?"
Instead of answering something like "I don't know yet" or "I still haven't decided." her answer is listing all the reasons why she should go: "My family does dearly want me to return to them, and Akira will be going as well. I could still teach as a career, whether it be here or there."
There's no weighing of options there. No "On one hand my parents want me to go, on the other I really love you and would like to be with you" or even a more neutral "I'd like to stay in Japan." Hisao is not even a consideration in her decision.
The way this is worded it's almost not possible to interpret it as anything but an attempt to cushion the blow of telling him that she's decided to leave.
So the conclusion that she has already decided to leave is perfectly valid in the situation.
And now put yourself in Hisao's position. He is in love with Lilly and wants for her to be happy, and she has just told him that her happiness lies in Scotland. If Hisao were to insist that Lilly does not return to her family and stay with him instead - without her sister at that - wouldn't that be selfish?

It's perfectly reasonable that Akira would take pity on Hisao as well. She knows that the deadline is approaching and Lilly has shown no intention of telling her boyfriend that she's probably going to leave the country. What would have happened if Akira hadn't done anything? Would she have told him the night before leaving, or would she have left him a message?

There's no weighing of options there. No "On one hand my parents want me to go, on the other I really love you and would like to be with you" or even a more neutral "I'd like to stay in Japan." Hisao is not even a consideration in her decision.

Just because she doesn't say something there doesn't mean she's just using him until it's time to go. Lilly is very proper in everything she does. Speaking out against her family and her family's wishes simply isn't the proper thing to do. That and she really does want to have a deeper realtion with her family.

Taking the mindset that Lilly is just using Hisao and is perfectly fine leaving him pretty much directly contradicts every other interaction they have together, including one where she;'s broken down in tears and has completely let her facade of always being in control slip away.

Lilly is faced with a situation where she can't make everyone happy and a fast upcoming deadline, two things she's very bad at. She's also faced with a situation where her upbringing and her heart and leading in two diffgerent directions. It's not that she hasn't decided, it's that there IS no good decision. She wasn't still trying to make up her mind, she was waiting for some kind of sign or a miracle that would work everything out for her. ...
Granted in this case her miracle involved a near death experience at the airport, but we take our miracles where we can get them.

As for not telling Hisao, well, Hisao has basically went along with everything she's said so far anyway. She's used to everyone, Hisao included looking up to her and assuming she's going to know what's best. You can't even get her good ending without turning this on it's head. She has to see that Hisao is being more honest with her than she is with him.

Except zero lines of the ending change, until Hisao makes up his mind to go after Lilly. It's not that Lilly needs to see that Hisao was more honest, it's that HISAO needs to see it.

Mirage_GSM wrote:Maybe you should reread the scene.

I have. Many times. Even while writing what you're replying to.

Hisao outright asks her what she decided to do: "What did you decide to do, in the end?"
Instead of answering something like "I don't know yet" or "I still haven't decided." her answer is listing all the reasons why she should go: "My family does dearly want me to return to them, and Akira will be going as well. I could still teach as a career, whether it be here or there."

You know what else is not there? "I'm going."; or even "I want to go." or "I should go.". In fact the game itself points this out:

In ''Under a Bright Sky'', the devs wrote:Hisao: "Why did you want to go to Scotland, Lilly?"
Lilly [subdued]: "Why…? I told you before: because Akira was going, and because of my family's summons to their home."
Hisao: "Why didn't you say that you wanted to go?"
Lilly [caught off guard]: "I—"

Mirage_GSM wrote:There's no weighing of options there. No "On one hand my parents want me to go, on the other I really love you and would like to be with you" or even a more neutral "I'd like to stay in Japan." Hisao is not even a consideration in her decision.

Being a deconstruction of a yamato nadeshiko, Lilly is here presenting a downside: she's deferring to the wishes of others, family and Hisao included. That leaves it up to everyone else to tell her what they want, and she refuses to preempt anything they might say by asserting her own desires. If he doesn't say he wants her to stay, she's certainly not going to be unbecoming by suggesting by herself that they oppose her parents. In fact it's probably not quite accurate of me to characterize her fault in all this as "indecision". It's more like "passivity".

The way this is worded it's almost not possible to interpret it as anything but an attempt to cushion the blow of telling him that she's decided to leave.

I'd say it's very easy to interpret it another way: Here are the reasons everyone's telling me for going; shoot them down! Object! Give me some reasons to stay! Help! Say something!

And now put yourself in Hisao's position. He is in love with Lilly and wants for her to be happy, and she has just told him that her happiness lies in Scotland.

Whoa! It's a big leap from "here are reasons to go" to "my happiness lies there"! But let's continue…

If Hisao were to insist that Lilly does not return to her family and stay with him instead - without her sister at that - wouldn't that be selfish?

If he were to insist? Sure. But all we're looking for here is an assertion of preference, not insistence. "I want you to stay." would be more than enough.

It's perfectly reasonable that Akira would take pity on Hisao as well. She knows that the deadline is approaching and Lilly has shown no intention of telling her boyfriend that she's probably going to leave the country. What would have happened if Akira hadn't done anything? Would she have told him the night before leaving, or would she have left him a message?

I have a feeling Akira did that for both their sake, actually. Of course Hisao was in the dark and deserved to know, but the whole thing was clearly messing Lilly up as well. Akira felt she had to get things moving to avoid total disaster on both sides.

However, this reminds me of another piece of evidence that Lilly truly had not decided yet. Akira tells Hisao: "Lilly hasn't told me whether she plans to accept, and it seems she hasn't told you, either." I would have to assume she would have told Akira had the decision actually been made; there would be no reason to hold the information back from her.

One of Hisao's definitive faults is that he takes people at face value. He's clearly been used to relatively shallow relationships, both with his friends and his parents, and has no idea that genuine friendship can leave many things unsaid.

In every route save Emi's (where he experiences first hand two faces he can't reconcile and is distressed by it), he falls for how the girl is presenting herself to the world without too much questions. Even when he tries to "understand" her, it's through the prism of an archetype, which is why it fails, as with Rin.

Now, how does he see Lilly? As "perfect", of course, but more precisely as someone who's several steps ahead of him in life. She's always in control, she has the most casual relationship with her disability (save Rin, but she doesn't really count), she has her future planned, she appears worldly, she has much deeper connections with Akira and with Hanako than what he has been used to.

Ergo, the only obvious explanation that comes to him when he discovers the truth is that Lilly had already decided a long time ago, possibly even before they started dating. Now, he could react with anger ("was this all just pretend?") or with empathy, and he goes with the later very quickly, probably once again because he never perceived her as outright manipulative (which she isn't, though she does have tendencies).

And here we come to another aspect of Hisao - he lacks self-awareness when it comes to how he appears to other people, or more precisely he doesn't imagine that they would make different choices based on what he does or doesn't. That Lilly is waiting for a reaction on his part doesn't come to him until she is almost gone. Thus, for him "empathy" means understanding and accepting what Lilly appears to choose, which is her family over an high school first love, because he thinks that she has her priorities so straight that it is futile and presumptuous, perhaps even cruel, to interfere.

Oddball wrote:Taking the mindset that Lilly is just using Hisao and is perfectly fine leaving him pretty much directly contradicts every other interaction they have together...

Uhm... Did I say that anywhere or imply it? Because if that's the case please point it out to me and I'll try to make myself more clear.
I never thought Lilly was using Hisao nor that she was fine with leaving.
What I said was that she failed to inform Hisao (and Hanako) of the possibility that she might soon be leaving the country, and regardless of whether or not she had already decided that is most definitely a major breach of confidence (or a "dick move" as I called it earlier).
I'm perfectly willing to accept that she did not intentionally hurt Hisao, and that she felt bad about it, but that doesn't make what she did okay by a long shot.

a fast upcoming deadline, two things she's very bad at.

I never looked at it this way, but no, that's not enough of an excuse either

Atario wrote:You know what else is not there? "I'm going."; or even "I want to go." or "I should go."

Of course it is there. It is not said outright, but as I said above it's almost impossible to interpret what she said another way. ("Almost" because there appear to be a few who manage to do so^^°)
She is asked a straight question, and instead of giving a direct answer or simply saying that she hasn't decided yet - which would have been a valid option - she lists the reasons why she should go. Why should she reply that way if she wanted to stay or was still in any way uncertain?

Now from a meta-standpoint I know why the line was phrased that way: Lilly had to leave for the plot to advance, and if she had said that she had not decided yet, Hisao would have probably asked her to stay, and if she had still decided to leave after that, it would have been even harder to portray her as a sympathetic character - or even to justify her return in the good end.

The problem is that Lilly would not use this line by accident. If this were Misha (or even Emi), I'd give her a bit more leeway. Misha is often not aware of the effects her words have on others. Lilly however is aware of how language works, and even if the situation is a bit stressful for her, she has to know that answering this way will lead Hisao to the conclusion that she has decided to go.

So the only conclusion to reach (for me - you'll probably continue to believe in your conclusion) is that she actually did decide before that point to go. Just how long "some time" actually is - a few days or a few weeks - is open for debate, but it's not really all that important anyway.

Mirage_GSM wrote:She is asked a straight question, and instead of giving a direct answer or simply saying that she hasn't decided yet - which would have been a valid option - she lists the reasons why she should go. Why should she reply that way if she wanted to stay or was still in any way uncertain?

Maybe she expected Hisao to grow a pair and list reasons to stay, rather than just give up and act as if she was already gone. Nobody wants to hang around for a doormat.