Katawa Shoujo Forums

Xanatos wrote:

Drummodino wrote:

Xanatos wrote:Lilly has a good end and a bad end. Anyone who calls it "neutral" is wrong. >.>

I've seen it described as a neutral end in a lot of places, but I agree it's pretty freaking awful.

It's neutral for Hanako. But it's also not Hanako's story being told so that's irrelevant. In Lilly's story, for Lilly, it's bad.

No arguments from me.

Firewind wrote:

Xanatos wrote:Lilly has a good end and a bad end. Anyone who calls it "neutral" is wrong. >.>

Compared to the good one yes, this one is awful(duh). But compared to the bad ones from the other girls I'd say this is more like a neutral one (I already said why). It's just your point of view to call that ending bad, just as well as I can call it neutral. I don't think my point of view can be "wrong".

"Oh, well, you left everything you knew and loved behind for a family who selfishly dumped you here years ago but hey, at least you aren't as bad off as that other guy!"...Sounds really awful. Like downplaying the whole thing.

Yeah...Things like "good" and "bad" aren't relative to people around the person involved, they're relative to the person themselves.

Say I lost both my legs. To me, that's pretty bad. Say my neighbor's husband just died. Also bad...But hey, my legs are still gone, and that situation is in no way made less terrible by my neighbor's unrelated plight that does not involve me in any way.

And something being a point of view doesn't preclude it being wrong. Dictators and racists and murderers since humanity's beginning have had "points of view".

Plus "neutral" is a middling term. Hanako has a neutral where she stays in her same position as the doted-on protected friend, Rin has a neutral where she stays the unaffected isolated artist under Nomiya's misguided mentorship. Every other ending tips the scale for either better or worse in some way, but only those two retain status quo. That's not point of view, that's definition.

Xanatos wrote:
"Oh, well, you left everything you knew and loved behind for a family who selfishly dumped you here years ago but hey, at least you aren't as bad off as that other guy!"...Sounds really awful.

That's true, but remember that japanese culture is pretty...let's say different, as you know very well. And the fact that they were still at least friends even when she left that's pretty much neutral to me. You know that it's not mandatory for each girl to have a bad ending OR a neutral ending, but of course a good one is pretty much mandatory.

Xanatos wrote: Yeah...Things like "good" and "bad" aren't relative to people around the person involved, they're relative to the person themselves.
Say I lost both my legs. To me, that's pretty bad. Say my neighbor's husband just died. Also bad...But hey, my legs are still gone, and that situation is in no way made less terrible by my neighbor's unrelated plight that does not involve me in any way.

That makes sense, the fact that someone lost his legs and then the neighbor's husband died doesn't make it less terrible, but can't really see the connection here.

Xanatos wrote: And something being a point of view doesn't preclude it being wrong. Dictators and racists and murderers since humanity's beginning have had "points of view".

These "points of view" are pretty harmful and can affect people. Those points of view regarding the ending of a VN I can say are harmless, so because of that they can't be such thing as "wrong".

Xanatos wrote: Plus "neutral" is a middling term. Hanako has a neutral where she stays in her same position as the doted-on protected friend, Rin has a neutral where she stays the unaffected isolated artist under Nomiya's misguided mentorship. Every other ending tips the scale for either better or worse in some way, but only those two retain status quo. That's not point of view, that's definition.

So because the other bad endings from the other girls were like GET OUT OF MY ROOM/HOUSE/FACE/LIFE and Lilly's bad ending has nothing to do with that and they were still friends makes it equally bad?? That's in no way as bad, and the most I'd call it I guess it could be something between neutral and bad if such things exists, but bad no way. I guess we just have different views regarding stuff like this and we can't come to an agreement no matter what

I think "Better does not mean good" fit's here. Yes Lilly's bad end isn't as bad as it could be but that doesn't mean it isn't bad.

MegaMoto wrote:I think "Better does not mean good" fit's here. Yes Lilly's bad end isn't as bad as it could be but that doesn't mean it isn't bad.

I didn't say it was good, far from it, but it's still not that bad to be considered a bad ending. It is mentioned that they're still good friends, while in the other bad endings they're not even friends anymore. I know that this conversation would not convince anyone about anything so I'll just stick with this:

Weird Heather wrote:Since Lilly's story has two endings, I suppose that one is considered "good" and the other is considered "bad," but the "bad" ending has a neutral feel to it, and I have seen it described as such. "Good," "bad," and "neutral" are relative terms. Lilly's less-than-ideal ending is "bad" compared to her good ending, but perhaps it is "neutral" compared to the bad endings of the other girls.