There are no "good" endings

[Xanatos]

1) Welcome to the internet. Discussions happen here. If you see an argument about superiority, that's just a problem with you. I see a simple discussion.

That's not discussion. You clearly have no intent on listening to the other person at all and are really just talking to them to be right about something.

Cool story. Continue being a dick and assuming you have some magical ability to know the intentions of strangers. I'm sure it'll be true as long as you hold the delusion long enough.

[Oddball]

Come on, guys. Play nice.

[Dr. Robotnik]

Cool story. Continue being a dick and assuming you have some magical ability to know the intentions of strangers. I'm sure it'll be true as long as you hold the delusion long enough.

Not only did you seriously just say "cool story bro", but you just applied the "I don't like what you have to say soyou have no idea what you're talking about" logic you berated me for supposedly having. Clearly I'm delusional for thinking that someone who only argues technicalities and constantly calls the other person an idiot is just trying to be superior and not actually have an intelligent discussion. Clearly, I am the dick.

Also, nice job not even replying to anything relevant and instead just insulting me. Whatever it takes to win, y'know?

[ProfAllister]

Wow, lots of reactions to my post. Let's see here...

Lilly stopped being extremely dependant on Akira long before Hisao transferred in. She's pretty well in control of her life by the time Act 1 rolls around.

I'd beg to differ. She's still extremely emotionally dependent on Akira. There are some scenes where she seems downright clingy.

She was actually bullied by the kids in elementary and middle school. The orphanage was the one place she was relatively safe, though she did start noticing how most other kids her age there got adopted. I also doubt Lilly'd ever discard Hanako out of boredom (or any other reason). It's unlikely the two would go and study the same subject after Yamaku, so their paths may split at some point, but Lilly sees their friendship as very legitimate.

Mea culpa on the factual inaccuracy. As for the LillyxHanako relationship, this is from Hanako's perspective, not the omniscient narrator. Hanako very much expects Lilly to discard her once she's bored.

I'm not certain how you can call that "resolved well enough". That last F doesn't really belong there. They'll be BFF's until the end of school year and that terrifies Misha. If it was truly resolved, the main conflict in Shizune's route would be Jigoro's random ranting. The "resolution" involved Shizune rejecting Misha's advances and moving on and Misha being rejected and not moving on. So now Misha's stuck in that agonizing "can't live with her, can't live without her"-pattern that'll eventually blow up when Misha realizes graduation is getting closer and Shizune's going to move on without her. She'll confront Shizune with that and Shizune'll be like "we'll at least have our memories here" and the two will have their falling out just like in Shizune's route. Hisao or no Hisao, their falling out will take place eventually. Their relationship is a ticking time bomb.

As with Hanako, this is from Shizune's point of view. Hence the Question mark after "GOOD END".

Shizune pushes Lilly away because Lilly wants to spend time helping people instead of working and ends up destroying the student council because nobody else wants to do things her way.

She makes a new friend. Shizune pushes her friend hard in order to use her as a translator.

Her friend translates for her, but it does nothing to help her actually connect with people. She says she can't talk naturally to people through a translator but doesn't like to write things down or text them. You talk to Shizune on her terms or not at all, and with how she tends to act, most people don't seem to want to bother.

Her friend falls in love with her. Shizune rejects her. Her friend completely changes the way she looks and acts in order to be closer to Shizune and basically does whatever she thinks she can in order to make Shizune like her more. Shizune doesn't like this, but doesn't do anything about it.

First off, I'm revoking your "talking about Shizune" privileges, Oddball. Nothing personal. It's just my job to enforce these things.

That being said, you're largely accurate here, but again, not looking at things from Shizune's perspective. If I were telling it from Misha's perspective, things might be a little different (but, also judging from the fan labelling of endings, Misha would get a "NEUTRAL END").

You're reading WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too far into this, to the point where you're just wildly speculating. Chaos theory? Are you serious? This is a Dating Sim about a school for cripples, not Stein's;Gate.

Also, you're once again assuming the extreme of my point when I couldn't be more clear about it being "being a friend will help them" and not being "Hisao is the goddamn messiah that will solve everyone's issues completely with his wizard dick".

I comment how chaos theory dictates that choosing Emi's route means you cause an earthquake in China, and you somehow think I'm serious? Really?

And I was using hyperbole for the other aspect because you seem to be missing the point. I was literally saying that Hisao doesn't magically solve the girls' problems by sexing them up. No one (or very few people) seriously believes that. The POINT of that statement is that the girls are not simply waiting for a Prince Charming on a white stallion to save them from their problems. The girls are not helpless and condemned to misery if Hisao isn't there for them. There's nothing saying that their story will be worse, or they won't get over their problems without Hisao. Things could be worse for them without Hisao. They could be better, or they could just be a different way of reaching more or less the same position. If you care so much about the lives of fictional girls, don't insult them by robbing them of any agency.

And, for the record, everything in this post was serious. Except for revoking Oddball's "talking about Shizune" privileges. I don't have any power to do that.

See how much more boring things are when you have to explain what parts are serious?

[Dr. Robotnik]

I comment how chaos theory dictates that choosing Emi's route means you cause an earthquake in China, and you somehow think I'm serious? Really?

Oh, I must've missed that.

And I was using hyperbole for the other aspect because you seem to be missing the point. I was literally saying that Hisao doesn't magically solve the girls' problems by sexing them up. No one (or very few people) seriously believes that. The POINT of that statement is that the girls are not simply waiting for a Prince Charming on a white stallion to save them from their problems. The girls are not helpless and condemned to misery if Hisao isn't there for them. There's nothing saying that their story will be worse, or they won't get over their problems without Hisao. Things could be worse for them without Hisao. They could be better, or they could just be a different way of reaching more or less the same position. If you care so much about the lives of fictional girls, don't insult them by robbing them of any agency.

You're the one missing the point. I'm saying that Hisao being there for his friends would help them, but somehow you're getting "they need to be saved by Hisao who will solve all of their problems". Can they get better? Yes. Do they need Hisao? Not necessarily. Can he help? Yes. Should he have been there for his friends? Yes. <-That is my point, not what you incorrectly assumed based off of nothing. Shit like this makes me not even want to take part in discussions because, no matter how plainly and clearly and literally I state what I mean, people either do that shit or reach some completely asinine conclusion that's nowhere close to my point.

inb4 you guys continue to misinterpret my statement in a logical extreme despite me saying that my point is literally what I mean.

[Denouement]

Isn't "inb4" posted by OTHER people in response to something someone said, hence the shortened "in before" in order to increase speed to be "inb4" said thing? I mean, of course you're going to be "inb4" a type of response if you type "inb4" within your OWN post.

[Dr. Robotnik]

I meant inb4 because, at this point, it would be pretty much impossible to misinterpret what I've said.

[SemisoftCheese]

inb4 you guys continue to misinterpret my statement in a logical extreme despite me saying that my point is literally what I mean.

I'm sorry to re-enter this argument (it seems pretty violent), but I do want to say this:

Dr. Robotnik, you are right in that a good friend helps out his other friends, regardless of whom they're loving or whatever they want to do.

Can Hisao help his friends with his problems? Yes. Does he know that they have them even without romancing them? For your argument's sake, let's say yes.

Could Hisao been a better person by saving all five ladies at once? Yes. As a friend, did he have a duty to be there for them? No.

Could you wake up at six every morning and train for the olympics? Yes, you could. On a smaller note, could you not go to Starbucks every day and donate the change to UNICEF? Yes, you could. Are you a bad person for not doing so? I don't think so.

Are you a bad person, Dr. Robotnik? I think the way you're arguing this post, you have a passionate belief that friends help out other friends, no matter what. I think if you were my friend, I'd be lucky, because you'd probably be a great guy to have when I'm feeling down or need some help. But if I had to do something, and you weren't there to help me out, or you didn't want to, would you be a bad friend? Are you a bad person when you don't give change to a beggar? Are you a bad person when you can't look a terminal cancer victim in the eye, because they'll be gone soon and you won't?

I've walked down a lot of roads of friendship. And I can say this. Friendship isn't about help. It's not about loyalty. Friendship, Dr. Robotnik, is not "being there" for someone. You have to ask yourself why you're truly friends with someone.

Friendship isn't the ability to look a terminal patient in the eye. It's not visiting him every week in sterile halls, or buying him melted ice cream from the cafeteria. Or sneaking him cigs on his breaks. Friendship is something inside the heart, something which rolls like the break of wave. Something that is good for simply existing, no matter how far you want to carry it. Friendship is just as good when you're waving to someone in the hall, or when you've known someone for twelve years. It's good whenever you can have it, and the only kind of "bad" friendship is the one where your friend is in a grave.

You're not friends with someone because they wave hi to you in the hallways and you think they're funny. You don't have a duty to help them, nor they to you, no matter how many years you've been together.

I brought coffee to my grandfather because it made him happy. He was in the hospital, and he loved Dunkin Donuts, so I went out and got it for him. Not because he was my friend. Not because I had a duty to help him. Not because I wanted to be a better friend. I didn't gain "friend" points by helping him, nor did I lose points when I didn't. I had no reason to help him. He was my friend, but I didn't have to help him because he was my friend. Because if I did, it would be forced, or out of duty, and that's not what friendship is about.

I did it because I wanted to.

[Megumeru]

Even Kenji has one.

You know....
mercy kill

[Oddball]

Mea culpa on the factual inaccuracy. As for the LillyxHanako relationship, this is from Hanako's perspective, not the omniscient narrator. Hanako very much expects Lilly to discard her once she's bored.

Honestly, I don;'t think Hanako really knows what to think about Lilly (and Hisao for that matter.)

She's lonely and I think she wants a friend, but experience has beat into her head over the last decade or so that nobody really likes her or wants to be her friend.

Lilly seems to challenge that and she doesn't know how to take it. Lilly is her friend... BUT Lilly still looks down on her and treats her like a child. (Which really says more about LIlly's personality that Hanako's here.) Most likely when Hanako stops to think about it, she's torn on the subject.

Lilly is nice and friendly and spends time with her BUT she still treats her like a child BUT she might just be doing that to help BUT once she finishes "helping" she might be done with Hanako BUT ... and so on and so forth.

Hanako keeps looking at it from different angles and really doesn't quite know what to think. She might test things here and there, but she doesn't want to risk rocking the boat too much and driving the only thing that passes as a friend away. It's a little bit more obvious in her relationship with Hisao but at the same time Hisao is a boy that likes her even though he can actually see her. With Lilly she's probably settled into a "this is as good as I'm ever going to get."

First off, I'm revoking your "talking about Shizune" privileges, Oddball. Nothing personal. It's just my job to enforce these things.

Bah! A Pox on you and your house!

That being said, you're largely accurate here, but again, not looking at things from Shizune's perspective. If I were telling it from Misha's perspective, things might be a little different (but, also judging from the fan labelling of endings, Misha would get a "NEUTRAL END").

Well, Shizune's route is sort of an odd one anyway as the main girl in it tends to fall into the shadow of her supporting cast member a lot of times (if not all the time) so I tend to look at her route not just as what would be good for Shizune, but what would be good for Shizune and Misha.

I'd agree that Shizune's good ending would probably be Misha's neutral (although quite frankly, I think it felt more like a neutral ending for Shizune as well. If you had a second choice somewhere in that route, you probably could have gotten the good ending. )

And, for the record, everything in this post was serious. Except for revoking Oddball's "talking about Shizune" privileges. I don't have any power to do that.

Oh. Okay. I take back my Pox then.

You're the one missing the point. I'm saying that Hisao being there for his friends would help them,

If Hisao spends time with somebody once or twice when he first gets to the new school and then doesn't interact with them at all after that, are they still really "his friends?"

He talks to Miki more in Hanako's route that he talks to many of the main characters when it isn't there route. Nobody ever accuses Hisao of not trying to help Miki with her problems.

Are you a bad person, Dr. Robotnik?

Well, there is that whole turning animals into robots things... and trying to take over the world...

[Dr. Casey]

So who's going to help out the poor boy that Emi dated for the better part of her second year at Yamaku? Poor guy, he probably became as misogynstic as Kenji after being used as a fuck buddy and kept in emotional limbo for a year.

[Guest Poster]

Maybe it was Kenji and Yuuko was just a red herring.

[Ste]

I think Hanako's, Rin's and Emi's good endings are really positive endings.

Most of all, Rin's final achievement - "it's all right to be me" - is the best achievement you can get in your life (well, it took me quite a few years to figure out this ).

Lilly's ending is just another Harlequin novel ending.

Shizune's best ending is when Hisao gets ditched: the only decent thing that happens to him after he gets involved in Shizune is his intercourse with Misha.

[Dr. Robotnik]

@SemisoftCheese You're still kinda exaggerating my point. Hisao shouldn't go completely out of his way, however him just being there for them like a friend normally would, would definitely help. Not solve everything, but it would help. Like, if he tried to get to know them, he'd probably help a lot already (he barely considers Misha more than a translator outside of Shizune's route). It's not even that big a hassle, he could've just treated the other girls like friends instead of just ignoring anyone who wasn't his girlfriend. If getting to know your friends is too far out of your way, you shouldn't have them IMO.

@Oddball I stopped that after Adventure 1. Except Colors, but they were special animals and I was just building an amusement park.

@Dr. Casey she said they didn't have sex.

[Pyramid Head]

I was going to argue that there were no good endings because they're still trapped with Hisao but yeah, i understand where you're coming from. Characters you get really attached to can make you feel weirdly deprived when you return to real life. Jah knows i'd prefer to spend time with Hanako or Rin or even Misha than with the government bureaucrats actively trying to turn me into an alcoholic. I really should get in touch with my friends while this is going on. I'm so pissed off these days i can't focus on Katawa Shoujo or my fanfic.