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Re: Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you g
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:30 am
by Tomate
Keneshiro wrote:Xanatos wrote:Keneshiro wrote:So the end of Hanako's route is that Hisao learns to treat her as an equal, not to protect her, while for Lilly, it's the opposite? Or am I being an idiot again?
The ending is the same for both in that he learns to treat them as equals. The difference is before, he treats Hanako only as something to protect and Lilly only as someone to follow and lean on like a lost dog. She wants an equal and all Hisao tries to be is Hanako-with-a-dick.
Perhaps you should replay the routes.
It'd be a funner way of clarifying than asking a bunch of wackos from the 'net. XD
Heh, maybe I'll give it another go. I honestly had some trouble telling the significance of each event. Clueless as hell.
Tis a shame that the devs wont allow mods, if it was possible we could make a mod like "KS revisited" where the game pauses on critical points and a narrator points out the events, their meaning and structure.
Failing that a mod where Hisao role is played by Søren Kierkegaard the Danish philosopher
Shizune: We are going to play for it.
Kierkegaard: To dare is to lose one's footing momentarily. Not to dare is to lose oneself.
Misha: That's the spirit Sorenchan!
Kierkegaard: Spirit? Every human being is spirit and truth is the self-activity of appropriation!
Think about it.
Re: Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you g
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:57 pm
by Keneshiro
Tomate wrote:
The ending is the same for both in that he learns to treat them as equals. The difference is before, he treats Hanako only as something to protect and Lilly only as someone to follow and lean on like a lost dog. She wants an equal and all Hisao tries to be is Hanako-with-a-dick.
Perhaps you should replay the routes.
It'd be a funner way of clarifying than asking a bunch of wackos from the 'net. XD
Heh, maybe I'll give it another go. I honestly had some trouble telling the significance of each event. Clueless as hell.[/quote]
Tis a shame that the devs wont allow mods, if it was possible we could make a mod like "KS revisited" where the game pauses on critical points and a narrator points out the events, their meaning and structure.
Failing that a mod where Hisao role is played by Søren Kierkegaard the Danish philosopher
Shizune: We are going to play for it.
Kierkegaard: To dare is to lose one's footing momentarily. Not to dare is to lose oneself.
Misha: That's the spirit Sorenchan!
Kierkegaard: Spirit? Every human being is spirit and truth is the self-activity of appropriation!
Think about it.[/quote]
MAYBE I'll replay the routes. So, who's Kierkegaard?
Re: Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you g
Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:59 pm
by Xanatos
Keneshiro wrote:Tomate wrote:
The ending is the same for both in that he learns to treat them as equals. The difference is before, he treats Hanako only as something to protect and Lilly only as someone to follow and lean on like a lost dog. She wants an equal and all Hisao tries to be is Hanako-with-a-dick.
Perhaps you should replay the routes.
It'd be a funner way of clarifying than asking a bunch of wackos from the 'net. XD
Heh, maybe I'll give it another go. I honestly had some trouble telling the significance of each event. Clueless as hell.
Tis a shame that the devs wont allow mods, if it was possible we could make a mod like "KS revisited" where the game pauses on critical points and a narrator points out the events, their meaning and structure.
Failing that a mod where Hisao role is played by Søren Kierkegaard the Danish philosopher
Shizune: We are going to play for it.
Kierkegaard: To dare is to lose one's footing momentarily. Not to dare is to lose oneself.
Misha: That's the spirit Sorenchan!
Kierkegaard: Spirit? Every human being is spirit and truth is the self-activity of appropriation!
Think about it.[/quote]
MAYBE I'll replay the routes. So, who's Kierkegaard?[/quote]
Okay, who broke the quotes? Things I say shouldn't be coming out of Tomate. XD
Re: Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you g
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:38 pm
by Tiercelet
Keneshiro wrote:
MAYBE I'll replay the routes. So, who's Kierkegaard?
Søren Kierkegaard.
Danish Christian-Existentialist philosopher from the early-to-mid-1800s. Wrote a lot of philosophical works, frequently using pseudonyms to explore various perspectives (which he may or may not have actually held), for instance the nature of belief in God in the face of the absurdity (technical term; something like 'beyond rational comprehension') idea of a Supreme Being, especially one who demands obedience or counter-intuitive actions (like in the story of Abraham and Isaac, which Kierkegaard covered in "Fear and Trembling"). Also relevant to the idea of using him as the protagonist of a VN is his essay on repetition -- basically pining because it's impossible to go back and re-make the choices we've made in the past, or otherwise re-live past experiences.
Tomate, your ideas intrigue me and I would like to subscribe to your literature.
Re: Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you g
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:02 pm
by Nyzer
The difference is before, he treats Hanako only as something to protect and Lilly only as someone to follow and lean on like a lost dog. She wants an equal and all Hisao tries to be is Hanako-with-a-dick.
The Hanako part is true, but the fault in the Lilly relationship is hers, not his. There's really not a time where he'd think she needs support until Akira talks to him about the offer. Lilly doesn't take the opportunity to confide in him even though she should, and she in fact hides it so well that her mask about it only slips once. And as far as he knew, she could have been upset about
anything.
Besides, isn't the path to her good ending basically just "don't ever hide anything or bottle anything up to deal with on your own"? If Hisao doesn't make Lilly his confidant in every choice the player gets, she leaves.
He follows and leans on her because she gives the option to, and because she never indicates that she needs someone to lean on as well. It's her failure of communication, not his.
Re: Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you g
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:16 pm
by Xanatos
Nyzer wrote:The difference is before, he treats Hanako only as something to protect and Lilly only as someone to follow and lean on like a lost dog. She wants an equal and all Hisao tries to be is Hanako-with-a-dick.
The Hanako part is true, but the fault in the Lilly relationship is hers, not his. There's really not a time where he'd think she needs support until Akira talks to him about the offer. Lilly doesn't take the opportunity to confide in him even though she should, and she in fact hides it so well that her mask about it only slips once. And as far as he knew, she could have been upset about
anything.
Besides, isn't the path to her good ending basically just "don't ever hide anything or bottle anything up to deal with on your own"? If Hisao doesn't make Lilly his confidant in every choice the player gets, she leaves.
He follows and leans on her because she gives the option to, and because she never indicates that she needs someone to lean on as well. It's her failure of communication, not his.
She doesn't hide it well at all. And she indicates it plenty, just not verbally. Hisao's just too thick to pay it any mind.
Re: Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you g
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:22 pm
by Nyzer
I'm still gonna have to say that I didn't see it. Granted I've only played through any route once, but the first indicator I really saw was her angrily hitting the ground. I can't quite remember if Hisao thought she was acting odd just before Akira took him aside, but even so. Lilly seems to go out of her way to present herself as being self-assured and capable... assuming she's troubled about something based on a couple odd quirks here and there doesn't leap to the idea that something major is automatically happening.
I remember reading some joke post online somewhere. Hers and his journals, or something.
Hers goes first, and what it says is roughly a few paragraphs of "he's been distant for a couple days now, I try to talk to him but he says nothing's wrong, he's a lot more quiet lately, and he always acts as if his mind is on something else. I wonder if he's wandering, or thinking about it? Is this the first sign? Is our relationship coming to a close? Oh, God, I don't want this to be happening..."
His is "still can't figure out why the motorbike won't start..."
Could he have pushed her a bit more when she started showing signs? Sure, but he's got no reason to think that whatever's bugging her is as serious as it is. Hell, he's got plenty of reason to assume that he's what's bugging her, or more specifically, her (justified) worry over his health is what's bugging her. How many attacks did he have right in front of her by then, anyway?
The guy doesn't have the experience or the insight to know that she's struggling with such a major decision, and frankly, I think that if something that important comes up, and you have someone important in your life that it will affect like that, it's on you to open up to them about it, not them to assume something's wrong and ask you.
Re: Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you g
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:03 am
by Keneshiro
Nyzer wrote:I'm still gonna have to say that I didn't see it. Granted I've only played through any route once, but the first indicator I really saw was her angrily hitting the ground. I can't quite remember if Hisao thought she was acting odd just before Akira took him aside, but even so. Lilly seems to go out of her way to present herself as being self-assured and capable... assuming she's troubled about something based on a couple odd quirks here and there doesn't leap to the idea that something major is automatically happening.
Could he have pushed her a bit more when she started showing signs? Sure, but he's got no reason to think that whatever's bugging her is as serious as it is. Hell, he's got plenty of reason to assume that he's what's bugging her, or more specifically, her (justified) worry over his health is what's bugging her. How many attacks did he have right in front of her by then, anyway?
The guy doesn't have the experience or the insight to know that she's struggling with such a major decision, and frankly, I think that if something that important comes up, and you have someone important in your life that it will affect like that, it's on you to open up to them about it, not them to assume something's wrong and ask you.
I have to agree with you regarding the 'not-noticing anything' bit. I was slightly spoiled on the ending so the shock was reduced.
Could he have pshed her for the answer? Doubt it. She'll probably flare up and yell at him.
From what I saw of Lilly in her route, she keeps things close to her heart, only willing to confide in those she trusts absoultely. Maybe it's her protective nature that stopped her from telling Hisao and Hanako in fear of them being hurt/angry/feeling betrayed by her? Ah, the social minefield. How mind boggling.
Re: Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you g
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:12 am
by Guest Poster
I'm still gonna have to say that I didn't see it. Granted I've only played through any route once, but the first indicator I really saw was her angrily hitting the ground. I can't quite remember if Hisao thought she was acting odd just before Akira took him aside, but even so. Lilly seems to go out of her way to present herself as being self-assured and capable... assuming she's troubled about something based on a couple odd quirks here and there doesn't leap to the idea that something major is automatically happening.
I remember reading some joke post online somewhere. Hers and his journals, or something.
Hers goes first, and what it says is roughly a few paragraphs of "he's been distant for a couple days now, I try to talk to him but he says nothing's wrong, he's a lot more quiet lately, and he always acts as if his mind is on something else. I wonder if he's wandering, or thinking about it? Is this the first sign? Is our relationship coming to a close? Oh, God, I don't want this to be happening..."
His is "still can't figure out why the motorbike won't start..."
Could he have pushed her a bit more when she started showing signs? Sure, but he's got no reason to think that whatever's bugging her is as serious as it is. Hell, he's got plenty of reason to assume that he's what's bugging her, or more specifically, her (justified) worry over his health is what's bugging her. How many attacks did he have right in front of her by then, anyway?
The guy doesn't have the experience or the insight to know that she's struggling with such a major decision, and frankly, I think that if something that important comes up, and you have someone important in your life that it will affect like that, it's on you to open up to them about it, not them to assume something's wrong and ask you.
There were some signs in addition to her sudden angry outburst. Hisao notes earlier that Lilly used to have very clear plans for her future, but now whenever graduation or her future comes up she starts evading the subject. He can feel some distance between them that wasn't there before. Sure, it's subtle but most stuff about Lilly is subtle. Hisao identified Lilly's outburst as a red flag, but when she recovered her lady facade, he decided against pressuring her. But yeah, this was as much Lilly's fault for not confiding in him as it was Hisao's fault for being too passive.
The major place where Hisao dropped the ball, however, was when he confronted Lilly with the knowledge about the summons. Lilly appeared very unsure about the whole thing and even said "My parents dearly want me there and Akira's going too, so....". In other words, she's not leaving because she wants to, but because her decision is made completely with others in mind. That's where Hisao should have chipped in and asked her what it was that SHE wanted. But by then, he was already so used to just going along with Lilly's decisions without questioning them that he didn't think to challenge her choice.
Re: Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you g
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:45 am
by ShinigamiKenji
That whole discussion makes me realize how bad I am to capture those subtle details... And IRL too.
Re: Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you g
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:09 am
by Keneshiro
ShinigamiKenji wrote:That whole discussion makes me realize how bad I am to capture those subtle details... And IRL too.
We are all socially akward penguins. =/
Re: Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you g
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:33 am
by Xanatos
Keneshiro wrote:ShinigamiKenji wrote:That whole discussion makes me realize how bad I am to capture those subtle details... And IRL too.
We are all socially akward penguins. =/
Can I be a prinny?
Re: Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you g
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:51 am
by ShinigamiKenji
We can be all prinnies, there's always a bunch of them anyway.
Re: Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you g
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:51 am
by Nyzer
But by then, he was already so used to just going along with Lilly's decisions without questioning them that he didn't think to challenge her choice.
Hm. Not everyone has the self-confidence to challenge something like that. She decided to go, for whatever reasons she considered valid, and she didn't want to confide in him about it. From my perspective, that's not exactly giving him a signal that he's important enough to change her mind. Quite the opposite, actually. Someone in that position may think that pressuring the other person is only going to make things worse, especially if they don't have confidence.
Having been in a situation that's not too distant from that... I can't say I reacted all that differently at first. It was only a couple days later that I challenged the other person. Tried to get a better understanding of what they were thinking, tried to talk them out of their choice...
It wasn't worth the effort.
Re: Played Hanako and Lilly routes. Some questions for you g
Posted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:12 pm
by Xanatos
ShinigamiKenji wrote:We can be all prinnies, there's always a bunch of them anyway.
Most people don't understand that question...I ask it anytime penguins are mentioned within earshot. xD