Katawa Shoujo Forums

yummines wrote:
btw heres an image to all those who support "Hisao raped Hanako" theory

LOL. Ahhh.

Am I the only one that gets annoyed by people sticking "Ara ara" into Lilly's dialogue?

yummines wrote:-snip-

btw heres an image to all those who support "Hisao raped Hanako" theory

Hahahaha, saved.

Oddball wrote:Am I the only one that gets annoyed by people sticking "Ara ara" into Lilly's dialogue?

probably, ufufufu~.

Oddball wrote:Am I the only one that gets annoyed by people sticking "Ara ara" into Lilly's dialogue?

The image is a reference to this mostly defunct meme: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/honk-honk-doug-comic So in this case it makes (a little) sense.
About the theory that genitalia were drawn to underline the awkwardness, "wrongness" and so on of the sex scene... So why there are none in the Misha sex scene? That one, as I see it, is definitely more awkward and depressing.

I would say that it was depicted in that way, not only the genitalia but also the pose, etc, to emphasize that it's was pure, raw, primal and physical sex. It underlines that at that moment they were only able to express themselves to each other in a purely physical way. It's ironic that they do love each other, but that they're unable to communicate to the point that they end up having such raw sex. I guess the rawness of the scene is what shocks most people, but again, I think the shock is necessary to drive the point of the story home. It sure did so for me, and that's why I think this scene is very important to me.

yummines wrote: -snip-
btw heres an image to all those who support "Hisao raped Hanako" theory

and there goes the Hanako/Lilly non-aggression pact down the drain. Ufufufufu...


No, I don't think Hisao raped Hanako. It's mutual, she likes him, he likes her and that's that. If Hisao actually rapes Hanako, it implies that she actually wants to be raped and that proves the theory that 'the quieter the girl the weirder she gets' adding the idea that Hanako has a rape-fetish Which she doesn't have in regards to her character. So no, it's mutual.

Think about it like this:
1. A girl invites you to her room, then ask you to lock her door.
2. She starts to strip.

If you're a healthy, young male you will get ideas and probably know where this is going to go. No exceptions. Even if the girl probably has no intention for that, she knows that this is where it is going--hell, I think Hanako wants it to happen because she is afraid of losing Hisao. So no, I don't think Hisao raped Hanako--it's mutual, get it over.

Just a rather awkward and terrible approach by Hisao towards the subject; WHAT THE HELL HERO!?

I read that scene as her wanting to insure privacy because she was planning on reciprocating his earlier trusting gesture but she still feels VERY awkward about her scars. She turns away to show him both because the scars are worse from behind and because she still desires some sense of modesty. His wanting to touch them was probably nervously expected, but actively coming on to her in this state probably caught her by complete surprise; I suspect that Hanako very rarely thinks of herself as being sexy, and her nude form even less so.

After that she was caught between being baffled but appreciative of his reaction, not really prepared for sex but also not daring to stop him for fear of ruining the mood that she saw as positive generally if still confusing. This isn't at all what she wanted or expected but she isn't against it either, and so just goes with the flow as best she can, awkward and a bit frightening as it may be, in the hopes that this can lead to equality between them.

I don't call it rape either but if I was in Hisao's situation I wouldn't feel good about it if I found out she was having the sex because she thought that was the way to tie me to her (partially because it wouldn't be but my moral compass is another reason). I'd rather have sex when she's interested into sex as well. Recall the first sex scene with Shizune? That felt for me as viewer much more honest, much more like sex as it should be in a relation as I view it in my naive romantic way
I'm not saying I wouldn't have tapped her if she stripped and offered it, I'm saying that I wouldn't feel comfortable with it afterwards if I found out the sex was meant as a 'sacrifice' so I'd stay with her. But as Beoran said, this story is written in a Japanese culture with Japanese morals. My moral compass and culture differs and I'm not judging Hanako & Hisao.

Megumeru wrote:Think about it like this:
1. A girl invites you to her room, then ask you to lock her door.
2. She starts to strip.

If you're a healthy, young male you will get ideas and probably know where this is going to go. No exceptions. Even if the girl probably has no intention for that, she knows that this is where it is going--hell, I think Hanako wants it to happen because she is afraid of losing Hisao. So no, I don't think Hisao raped Hanako--it's mutual, get it over.

This is actually a very poor way to think about it. If a girl takes a guy into her room, locks the door, and strips, it does not necessarily imply consent for sex. There are many situations in which it would be perfectly reasonable for a girl to take those actions without the desire for sex, and Hanako's situation (deciding to show Hisao the full extent of her scarring) could very easily have been one of them. Now you can say "if she just wanted to show Hisao her scars, she could have left her bra on", etc., but that's really quite debatable and not something you should base a ruling of consensual sex on.

However, Hanako does demonstrate consent, non-verbally, later on in the scene:

Hisao: "Hanako..."
She gives a nod without so much as glancing at me, and makes her way to the bed as I do.

If you voluntarily get into bed naked with someone in situation like that without any signs of physical or verbal protest, you're essentially giving non-verbal consent. End of story.

As an interesting side-note, here's a survey study that asked females how they would give or not give consent for sex, and males how they would expect a female to give or not give consent for sex. It was found that both females and males expect consent to be non-verbal and non-consent to be verbal, and females actually prefer non-verbal consent and verbal non-consent more than males.

I could also probably find some examples of court cases where non-verbal consent was accepted as legal consent in rape cases, if anyone is that adamant about needing proof of the concept. Although, the situation in question occurred in Japan, so US court law wouldn't apply.

Kutagh wrote:I'd rather have sex when she's interested into sex as well.

Oh, definately, and that's what made the scene uncomfortable to watch. I think her 'sacrifice' was a rationalization made up on the spot though, not something she in any way planned.

Oh, and the first Shizune scene bothered me too, as even though Hisao was willing and able she didn't bother to ask his consent and he'd likely have been much happier to freely reciprocate. Clearly not rape but not happy sex either, and the emotional cutoff following it is also similar to the morning after awkwardness in Hanako's route.

nemz wrote:

Kutagh wrote:I'd rather have sex when she's interested into sex as well.

Oh, definately, and that's what made the scene uncomfortable to watch. I think her 'sacrifice' was a rationalization made up on the spot though, not something she in any way planned.

Oh, and the first Shizune scene bothered me too, as even though Hisao was willing and able she didn't bother to ask his consent and he'd likely have been much happier to freely reciprocate. Clearly not rape but not happy sex either, and the emotional cutoff following it is also similar to the morning after awkwardness in Hanako's route.

I agree that the Shizune scene wasn't exactly ideal and should've been done in a later stage. In that regard the Lilly path is the best example. First normal sex and then Lilly requesting Hisao to put on a blindfold and playing with him before having blindfolded sex. HASD

Mirrormn wrote:

Megumeru wrote:Think about it like this:
1. A girl invites you to her room, then ask you to lock her door.
2. She starts to strip.

If you're a healthy, young male you will get ideas and probably know where this is going to go. No exceptions. Even if the girl probably has no intention for that, she knows that this is where it is going--hell, I think Hanako wants it to happen because she is afraid of losing Hisao. So no, I don't think Hisao raped Hanako--it's mutual, get it over.

This is actually a very poor way to think about it. If a girl takes a guy into her room, locks the door, and strips, it does not necessarily imply consent for sex. There are many situations in which it would be perfectly reasonable for a girl to take those actions without the desire for sex, and Hanako's situation (deciding to show Hisao the full extent of her scarring) could very easily have been one of them. Now you can say "if she just wanted to show Hisao her scars, she could have left her bra on", etc., but that's really quite debatable and not something you should base a ruling of consensual sex on.

However, Hanako does demonstrate consent, non-verbally, later on in the scene:

Hisao: "Hanako..."
She gives a nod without so much as glancing at me, and makes her way to the bed as I do.

If you voluntarily get into bed naked with someone in situation like that without any signs of physical or verbal protest, you're essentially giving non-verbal consent. End of story.

As an interesting side-note, here's a survey study that asked females how they would give or not give consent for sex, and males how they would expect a female to give or not give consent for sex. It was found that both females and males expect consent to be non-verbal and non-consent to be verbal, and females actually prefer non-verbal consent and verbal non-consent more than males.

I could also probably find some examples of court cases where non-verbal consent was accepted as legal consent in rape cases, if anyone is that adamant about needing proof of the concept. Although, the situation in question occurred in Japan, so US court law wouldn't apply.

naw i dont think you need more sources. i think thats good enough.
whether or not Hanako's plan was to get Hisao to have sex with her, it's clear she gives her consent so its not rape.

Kutagh wrote:I don't call it rape either but if I was in Hisao's situation I wouldn't feel good about it if I found out she was having the sex because she thought that was the way to tie me to her (partially because it wouldn't be but my moral compass is another reason). I'd rather have sex when she's interested into sex as well. Recall the first sex scene with Shizune? That felt for me as viewer much more honest, much more like sex as it should be in a relation as I view it in my naive romantic way
I'm not saying I wouldn't have tapped her if she stripped and offered it, I'm saying that I wouldn't feel comfortable with it afterwards if I found out the sex was meant as a 'sacrifice' so I'd stay with her. But as Beoran said, this story is written in a Japanese culture with Japanese morals. My moral compass and culture differs and I'm not judging Hanako & Hisao.

Did you play the game? Hisao doesn't feel good about it afterwards and feels even worse then he finds out Hanako's reasoning for allowing it.

Oddball wrote:

Kutagh wrote:I don't call it rape either but if I was in Hisao's situation I wouldn't feel good about it if I found out she was having the sex because she thought that was the way to tie me to her (partially because it wouldn't be but my moral compass is another reason). I'd rather have sex when she's interested into sex as well. Recall the first sex scene with Shizune? That felt for me as viewer much more honest, much more like sex as it should be in a relation as I view it in my naive romantic way
I'm not saying I wouldn't have tapped her if she stripped and offered it, I'm saying that I wouldn't feel comfortable with it afterwards if I found out the sex was meant as a 'sacrifice' so I'd stay with her. But as Beoran said, this story is written in a Japanese culture with Japanese morals. My moral compass and culture differs and I'm not judging Hanako & Hisao.

Did you play the game? Hisao doesn't feel good about it afterwards and feels even worse then he finds out Hanako's reasoning for allowing it.

I did play the game, I didn't mention that aspect because I was talking about how I'd feel nor that I'm judging them, because I don't know their morals and culture.