Team Shizune vs Team Lilly

[Doraleous]

Team Shizune

Say what you want about her competitive, bossy nature, when push comes to shove, she's honest and she's way more believable as a character

[metalangel]

Passive blue-eyed blonde with big tits wins. Not a surprise.

[ShadeHaven]

Passive blue-eyed blonde with big tits wins. Not a surprise.

Why do I feel guilty that I agree with you?

[metalangel]

Passive blue-eyed blonde with big tits wins. Not a surprise.

Why do I feel guilty that I agree with you?

It's the Western standard for an ideal beauty.

I wonder if things would be different if she looked different.

[Doraleous]

Passive blue-eyed blonde with big tits wins. Not a surprise.

Why do I feel guilty that I agree with you?

It's the Western standard for an ideal beauty.

I wonder if things would be different if she looked different.

Her appearance is the thing I have the least trouble with. It's her personality that makes her such a too good to be true character, the looks just add insult to injury.

Also, I couldn't care less about her lie being justifiable or not, it's more the fact that it's the cheesiest excuse for a misstep in all the relationship troubles throughout all the routes. You see, Lilly is so perfect that she needed some bigass external pressure to make a mistake. Hisao and Lilly together belong in a Disney movie.

Shizune is not my favorite character or route but, in this case, Team Shizune all the way.

[Daitengu]

Since when is withholding information considered lying?

I'd say Lilly's fault is more of being over protective to the point of hiding problems, than being a blatant liar.

[rydiafan]

Since when is withholding information considered lying?

I'd say Lilly's fault is more of being over protective to the point of hiding problems, than being a blatant liar.

that's a good point ... but that doesn't change that fact the i still have no respect for her

[Wander]

Team Shizune

Say what you want about her competitive, bossy nature, when push comes to shove, she's honest and she's way more believable as a character

Being "believable" doesn't make her any more likeable. My issue isn't that, but the fact that she's incompatible with my personality.

[Mirrormn]

Since when is withholding information considered lying?

From A Morning's Reverie (right after Kenji knocks Lilly over and she curses):

I turn to Lilly before she leaves. While I do like the comfortable and warm silences we usually share, this was anything but. I don't want to leave things like this.

Hisao: "You seem... quieter than usual recently. Is anything wrong?"

She shakes her head almost automatically, as if to dispel any notion that I need to worry about her.

Lilly: "It's just the exams taking their toll. I'll be fine."

I don't think that's the reason. I very nearly say so, but decide against it. There's no point trying to draw it out of her if she doesn't want to tell me, especially when she's in a foul mood like this.

This is basically an intentional and explicit lie on Lilly's part, although I don't know that I would call it "blatant". Hisao probably could have gotten Lilly to tell him what was really bothering her if he had kept pressing the issue (or, even better, brought it up again at lunch or after school, in a more private circumstance), so it was really more of a weak evasion than any kind of determined and malicious falsehood. And Hisao actually realizes, at the beginning of False Cadence, that he should have been more insistent in that situation, because Lilly's pride prevents her from easily sharing her problems with others.

[Guest Poster]

You see, Lilly is so perfect that she needed some bigass external pressure to make a mistake. Hisao and Lilly together belong in a Disney movie.

That's not really true. Lilly has several flaws. The thing is, they're all rather subtle and Lilly tends to mask them well with her polite speech and lady-like behavior. Without some external crisis, some of those flaws might not have reared their head until way after KS actually ended. Most of Shizune's flaws come forth from her actions in certain situations. Most of Lilly's flaws come forth from her inactions in certain situations. The latter ones are harder to notice immediately, hence the need for some external pressure.

I wouldn't really call Lilly dishonest...the whole Scotland thing was more a case of procastination (a trait Shizune regularly gets on her case for) and problem avoidance. (a trait she admits to having while she and Hisao try to deal with a spaced-out Rin in Act 1...if Lilly doesn't know how to properly handle a situation, she avoids having to deal with it for as long as possible)

[Wander]

You see, Lilly is so perfect that she needed some bigass external pressure to make a mistake. Hisao and Lilly together belong in a Disney movie.

That's not really true. Lilly has several flaws. The thing is, they're all rather subtle and Lilly tends to mask them well with her polite speech and lady-like behavior. Without some external crisis, some of those flaws might not have reared their head until way after KS actually ended. Most of Shizune's flaws come forth from her actions in certain situations. Most of Lilly's flaws come forth from her inactions in certain situations. The latter ones are harder to notice immediately, hence the need for some external pressure.

I wouldn't really call Lilly dishonest...the whole Scotland thing was more a case of procastination (a trait Shizune regularly gets on her case for) and problem avoidance. (a trait she admits to having while she and Hisao try to deal with a spaced-out Rin in Act 1...if Lilly doesn't know how to properly handle a situation, she avoids having to deal with it for as long as possible)

+1, well put.

[megiddo]

It's a tough call. I would say Shizune because she is more exciting and fun. Plus, she seems loyal and honest, unlike Emi.

I think Shizune is the true path, and all the other paths are 'what if's.

[Megumeru]

You know I couldn't help thinking...

this discussion is getting awfully familiar (although a lot more intelligent) to the debate about 'Battlefield 3 vs CoD' and which one is the better game.


CoD appeals to the larger masses (Lilly), while Battlefield 3 appeals to certain people (Shizune). So yeah...you know where this discussion is going right?


Just sayin,
I really need to lay-off that can of beer once in awhile while browsing the forums


BUT ANYWAY!
Let's say a close friend of yours--a girl--comes up to you, tells you that she loves you, then leaves for another country for a very-very long time without telling you 'why', would you think she's being a scumbag or protective? Even if she is your/my close friend, I still think that's a very scumbaggy-ish thing to do leaving you in the dark, telling you 'please go out with me', then heads off to another country. The first thing that gets in my head is 'psyche, I'm just playing with you. Get real' and I'd certainly hate her for it.

It's like being friend-zoned--AGAIN. And this is your girlfriend for Christ's sake! It's like she's dumping you so she could run off with another guy in another country, that's what I feel when I heard Akira said 'Lilly's going to Scottland. I'm dumping my boyfriend because I can't take him with me'. Why? Because if Akira could do so (heck, at least she tells her boyfriend), Lilly could do just the same--only without the warning and that hurts much much more.

but there is one thing we Shizune and Lilly fans/supporters/lovers/etc. could agree upon though:
Both Shizune and Lilly are the two most misunderstood character in the KS verse.

Their rivalry is even dragged out of the game and into here, and--keeping with game lore--as a Shizune supporter, I'll step forward first for a reconciliation.

[themocaw]

Looking back on Lilly's flaws, I'm seeing what they are much more clearly: Lilly is a subversion of the Yamato Nadeshiko ideal.

There's an ideal in Japanese, and certain other Asian cultures, of the refined, selfless woman who lives for her friends and family. Lilly's character looks at the dark side of that ideal: when you sacrifice yourself for others, what's left?

I used to say that Lilly is a Mary Sue with no flaws, but on a second reading of her route, I realized that I was basically doing what everyone else in the story does: falling for Lilly's act. Lilly constantly projects an outside face that appears like the perfect woman: kind, refined, and selfless. Her whole character is based around reaching down to help others, as exemplified by her relationship with Hanako. But because she's so focused on doing what others need her to do, when it comes to claiming something she wants (Hisao), she can't find the guts to stand up and break her "perfect daughter" persona and be selfish for once.

Shizune, on the other hand, has the opposite problem: She knows exactly what she wants, and other people can either go her way or get out of the way. If Lilly is reaching down to help others, Shizune is trying to pull people up to her level, but if they can't hold on, it's not her fault. Her crisis is the opposite of Lilly's: Lilly is so selfless that she risks losing herself, Shizune is so self-oriented that she risks losing everyone else.

Random thought: Shizune's route really is more SHIZUNE's route than any other: Shizune's the one making all the choices here, as if she were the protagonist of her own off-screen Visual Novel. Hisao's singular choice is equivalent to checking if the player has tripped the right "flags" in a normal VN: Has Shizune the character scored enough "points" with the reader that he's willing to pass up free sex with Misha to stay loyal to her? Your choice.

[ShadeHaven]

You know I couldn't help thinking...

this discussion is getting awfully familiar (although a lot more intelligent) to the debate about 'Battlefield 3 vs CoD' and which one is the better game.


CoD appeals to the larger masses (Lilly), while Battlefield 3 appeals to certain people (Shizune). So yeah...you know where this discussion is going right?

Well in that case, Shizune all the way! They're kind of alike in a way. Like Cod, Lilly is slight boring and her daily routine is repetitive (that slightly hurts to say) and Shizune is fresh and vibrant, if not a little controversial, like BF3, I think.