Katawa Shoujo Forums

Oddball wrote:

axlryder wrote:

megiddo wrote:hehe, objectively excessive reaction.

Hey now bro, you can be objectively excessive. If I'm punishing my child, I can be objectively excessive. If I'm telling my friend I don't like something they're doing, I can be objectively excessive. I can guarantee that if you brought in a psychologist, they'd be like "yeah, Hanako's reaction was excessive, duh." Of course she's trying to end the relationship at that point, but she's also not in a frame of mind to fully gauge the situation and the potential ramifications of her actions. Hell, Hisao's obvious heart condition ALONE is enough reason to realize that such a shock could be potentially damaging or fatal.

Not being able to gauge the situation and keep control of the situation kinda goes hand in hand with loosing your temper. It's incredibly hard to flip out and keep control at the same time. Try it. It doesn't work that well.

Obviously, but that's the point. Hanako doesn't know how to deal with emotions or express her feelings. She stopped considering anything and gave into blind rage. Blind rage, while sometimes inevitable against certain stimuli, is almost never objectively okay. One who is emotionally healthy is able to experience anger while still keeping under control and venting that anger in a proper and calculated way. That's part of growing up and being an adult. Hanako is little more than a well guarded child. Of course that doesn't stop us from gauging her reaction, objectively, as excessive.

For clarity, as I think there was a communication breakdown here, I'm referring to us being objective, not Hanako.

axlryder wrote: Obviously, but that's the point. Hanako doesn't know how to deal with emotions or express her feelings. She stopped considering anything and gave into blind rage. Blind rage, while sometimes inevitable against certain stimuli, is almost never objectively okay. One who is emotionally healthy is able to experience anger while still keeping under control and venting that anger in a proper and calculated way. That's part of growing up and being an adult. Hanako is little more than a well guarded child. Of course that doesn't stop us from gauging her reaction, objectively, as excessive.

For clarity, as I think there was a communication breakdown here, I'm referring to us being objective, not Hanako.

That's what happens when people ignore what you say and continue doing things to you, that you don't like. Pissed is a normal reaction after "please leave " got ignored like a half dozen times.

Daitengu wrote:

axlryder wrote: Obviously, but that's the point. Hanako doesn't know how to deal with emotions or express her feelings. She stopped considering anything and gave into blind rage. Blind rage, while sometimes inevitable against certain stimuli, is almost never objectively okay. One who is emotionally healthy is able to experience anger while still keeping under control and venting that anger in a proper and calculated way. That's part of growing up and being an adult. Hanako is little more than a well guarded child. Of course that doesn't stop us from gauging her reaction, objectively, as excessive.

For clarity, as I think there was a communication breakdown here, I'm referring to us being objective, not Hanako.

That's what happens when people ignore what you say and continue doing things to you, that you don't like. Pissed is a normal reaction after "please leave " got ignored like a half dozen times.

Again, there's a difference between getting mad and flying off the handle. Flipping one's shit is never healthy or "normal". It's at that point when you raise your voice slightly and express yourself in a firm way. Not even after the half dozen or so "go away"s, usually after the first one. You say you're setting a boundary and aren't negotiating, and then say you'll alert the appropriate individual if the action continues. Assuming Hisao isn't a crazy person, he'd have to listen to that. You shouldn't just go from one extreme to another. Of course Hisao should have listened, but Hanako still freaked out. That sort of vitriol isn't good for anyone (even dangerous in this case) and was clearly a byproduct of her own emotional repression.

axlryder wrote:Again, there's a difference between getting mad and flying off the handle. Flipping one's shit is never healthy or "normal". It's at that point when you raise your voice slightly and express yourself in a firm way. Not even after the half dozen or so "go away"s, usually after the first one. You say you're setting a boundary and aren't negotiating, and then say you'll alert the appropriate individual if the action continues. Assuming Hisao isn't a crazy person, he'd have to listen to that. You shouldn't just go from one extreme to another. Of course Hisao should have listened, but Hanako still freaked out. That sort of vitriol isn't good for anyone (even dangerous in this case) and was clearly a byproduct of her own emotional repression.

In what reality do you live in where teens act like civilized adults, instead of hormonally imbalanced balls of mistrust that they usually are?

Daitengu wrote:

axlryder wrote:Again, there's a difference between getting mad and flying off the handle. Flipping one's shit is never healthy or "normal". It's at that point when you raise your voice slightly and express yourself in a firm way. Not even after the half dozen or so "go away"s, usually after the first one. You say you're setting a boundary and aren't negotiating, and then say you'll alert the appropriate individual if the action continues. Assuming Hisao isn't a crazy person, he'd have to listen to that. You shouldn't just go from one extreme to another. Of course Hisao should have listened, but Hanako still freaked out. That sort of vitriol isn't good for anyone (even dangerous in this case) and was clearly a byproduct of her own emotional repression.

In what reality do you live in where teens act like civilized adults, instead of hormonally imbalanced balls of mistrust that they usually are?

Reading some of the various posts about how characters should have handled situations, I sometimes get the feeling that I was playing a game with entirely different characters than the one they were playing.

If you're going to say they could have solved their problems by being able to communicate better, you might as well come out and say they could have solved these problems by not having emotional issues and disabilities in the first place. It's not just Hanako and Hisao, may elements from the various routes revolved around characters not being able to communicate properly with each other.

Daitengu wrote:

axlryder wrote:Again, there's a difference between getting mad and flying off the handle. Flipping one's shit is never healthy or "normal". It's at that point when you raise your voice slightly and express yourself in a firm way. Not even after the half dozen or so "go away"s, usually after the first one. You say you're setting a boundary and aren't negotiating, and then say you'll alert the appropriate individual if the action continues. Assuming Hisao isn't a crazy person, he'd have to listen to that. You shouldn't just go from one extreme to another. Of course Hisao should have listened, but Hanako still freaked out. That sort of vitriol isn't good for anyone (even dangerous in this case) and was clearly a byproduct of her own emotional repression.

In what reality do you live in where teens act like civilized adults, instead of hormonally imbalanced balls of mistrust that they usually are?

In a world where 18 year olds (Hanako and Hisao's age) work 2 jobs, go to college and deal with family/relationship matters. Being in the city may be part of it, since you had to be on guard and learn how to deal with crackheads and such. My friends and I were all in similar situations at the time. You grow up pretty fast when pressures like that are put on you. What's more, being immature doesn't magically make your actions justifiable. It just means you're immature.

Oddball wrote:

Daitengu wrote:

axlryder wrote:Again, there's a difference between getting mad and flying off the handle. Flipping one's shit is never healthy or "normal". It's at that point when you raise your voice slightly and express yourself in a firm way. Not even after the half dozen or so "go away"s, usually after the first one. You say you're setting a boundary and aren't negotiating, and then say you'll alert the appropriate individual if the action continues. Assuming Hisao isn't a crazy person, he'd have to listen to that. You shouldn't just go from one extreme to another. Of course Hisao should have listened, but Hanako still freaked out. That sort of vitriol isn't good for anyone (even dangerous in this case) and was clearly a byproduct of her own emotional repression.

In what reality do you live in where teens act like civilized adults, instead of hormonally imbalanced balls of mistrust that they usually are?

Reading some of the various posts about how characters should have handled situations, I sometimes get the feeling that I was playing a game with entirely different characters than the one they were playing.

If you're going to say they could have solved their problems by being able to communicate better, you might as well come out and say they could have solved these problems by not having emotional issues and disabilities in the first place. It's not just Hanako and Hisao, may elements from the various routes revolved around characters not being able to communicate properly with each other.

That was never the point though. Why are people having trouble grasping this? My response was in response to someone who implied that Hanako's actions were not excessive. They were. I was pointing out what an appropriate response would have been, as opposed to Hanako's actual response. It was understandable and expected, but excessive and wrong. Unless you disagree with that, then there's no reason to even pursue this conversational path outside of arguing for argument's sake.

If I'm punishing my child, I can be objectively excessive. If I'm telling my friend I don't like something they're doing, I can be objectively excessive.

Those are all situations where, I assume, you are in control of the situation. It's easy to be rational and use measured responses in those cases. But that's not what was happening in the "Misstep"-scene.

It's at that point when you raise your voice slightly and express yourself in a firm way. Not even after the half dozen or so "go away"s, usually after the first one. You say you're setting a boundary and aren't negotiating, and then say you'll alert the appropriate individual if the action continues.

That's an extremely rational response, but I'm not sure how well it works when emotion comes into play. If someone's in a bad emotional place, basically a nervous wreck, and someone else keeps pushing their buttons they usually don't whip out the checklist you just described and carefully go down each point. If someone's utterly depressed, they're usually not able to use cool logic to defuse the situation...or they would have rationalized their own depression away already.

Assuming Hisao isn't a crazy person, he'd have to listen to that. You shouldn't just go from one extreme to another.

But he didn't, nor was he going to. Because by that point he already decided he had to protect her from herself, which gave him (in his mind) a free pass to dismiss any and all objections she could raise.

If I understand correctly, you're saying a massively depressed teenager isn't acting rational. Isn't that kinda pointing out the obvious with depressed people, even if you DON'T start pushing their buttons? Is it even rational to expect someone in that kind of emotional state to act rationally?

That was never the point though. Why are people having trouble grasping this? My response was in response to someone who implied that Hanako's actions were not excessive. They were. I was pointing out what an appropriate response would have been, as opposed to Hanako's actual response. It was understandable and expected, but excessive and wrong. Unless you disagree with that, then there's no reason to even pursue this conversational path outside of arguing for argument's sake.

Let me see if we're on the same page.

Hanako acted irrationally because she was an irrational person dealing with another irrational person stuck in a situation that needed and extreme response to get the point across, yet under ideal circumstances where everyone was acting rationally, she could have done things differently.

... why would anybody feel the need to make that point?

Oddball wrote:

That was never the point though. Why are people having trouble grasping this? My response was in response to someone who implied that Hanako's actions were not excessive. They were. I was pointing out what an appropriate response would have been, as opposed to Hanako's actual response. It was understandable and expected, but excessive and wrong. Unless you disagree with that, then there's no reason to even pursue this conversational path outside of arguing for argument's sake.

Let me see if we're on the same page.

Hanako acted irrationally because she was an irrational person dealing with another irrational person stuck in a situation that needed and extreme response to get the point across, yet under ideal circumstances where everyone was acting rationally, she could have done things differently.

... why would anybody feel the need to make that point?

Okay, first of all, the situation did not require an extreme response. I required exactly the response I gave. Situations that may require extreme responses are those that involve active shooters and people attempting to commit suicide (among others). Secondly, I was never even commenting on how she could have responded under "ideal circumstances". I was objectively commenting on the reaction she gave. So no, we were not entirely on the same page. My point was literally: Her response to the situation was inappropriately extreme. That was it.

Finally, I made the point in response to someone else who seemed cynical that her reaction was objectively excessive. What made him think that was somehow not true is beyond me. Why you and the other guy felt the need to even interject is also beyond me, since my comment wasn't even initially directed towards either of you.

Guest Poster wrote:

If I'm punishing my child, I can be objectively excessive. If I'm telling my friend I don't like something they're doing, I can be objectively excessive.

Those are all situations where, I assume, you are in control of the situation. It's easy to be rational and use measured responses in those cases. But that's not what was happening in the "Misstep"-scene.

It's at that point when you raise your voice slightly and express yourself in a firm way. Not even after the half dozen or so "go away"s, usually after the first one. You say you're setting a boundary and aren't negotiating, and then say you'll alert the appropriate individual if the action continues.

That's an extremely rational response, but I'm not sure how well it works when emotion comes into play. If someone's in a bad emotional place, basically a nervous wreck, and someone else keeps pushing their buttons they usually don't whip out the checklist you just described and carefully go down each point. If someone's utterly depressed, they're usually not able to use cool logic to defuse the situation...or they would have rationalized their own depression away already.

Assuming Hisao isn't a crazy person, he'd have to listen to that. You shouldn't just go from one extreme to another.

But he didn't, nor was he going to. Because by that point he already decided he had to protect her from herself, which gave him (in his mind) a free pass to dismiss any and all objections she could raise.

If I understand correctly, you're saying a massively depressed teenager isn't acting rational. Isn't that kinda pointing out the obvious with depressed people, even if you DON'T start pushing their buttons? Is it even rational to expect someone in that kind of emotional state to act rationally?

urrg, I'll say it again, the entire point of my post was that Hanako's reaction WAS irrational and inappropriate. What are you people even arguing? That Hanako is an emotional wreck and thus obviously not operating at a capacity that would allow for rational though? Obviously. I made that point abundantly clear in multiple previous posts. Again, unless you're trying to argue that her response was objectively the appropriate one to take (it wasn't), then you're wasting our time.

Also, if Hanako had given the reaction I suggested, Hisao would have left. The reason he was disregarding her words is specifically because of the way she protested. He was pushing because the perceived weakness of her conviction made it appear as though she wasn't serious or not aware of her own wants/needs. He was being uncharacteristically stupid, yes. However, the reaction I suggested (firmly setting a boundary in a raised tone and then threatening to call for help if he disregarded) would have been enough for even the irrational Hisao to understand the situation. That he was crossing a line. What's more, people who possess decent amount of emotional maturity (even those of us who suffer from depression and emotional triggers) can react appropriately in emotionally stressful or enraging situations. It's merely a matter of being equipped with the appropriate tools and knowledge, as well as learning to temper yourself. Again, obviously Hanako wasn't capable of that, nor had she had the opportunity to become capable of that, but her emotional and rational capacity was never the point of my comment.

I guess I was arguing two things. One was that her response was irrational, but not necessarily inappropriate when taking all the circumstances into account. (you could argue that her response in her neutral ending was more inappropriate because she resigned herself to a role of being Hisao's ward instead of calling him on his faults at the cost of her own shrinking self-esteem)

The other was that, well...I felt some of your statements were too eager to dismiss humankind's emotional nature. I mean, statements like "Situations that may require extreme responses are those that involve active shooters and people attempting to commit suicide (among others)." or "(firmly setting a boundary in a raised tone and then threaten to call for help if he disregarded)" sound like straight out of a police manual and it would probably be wonderful (or not) if everybody could keep their emotions in check at all times and calmly and rationally deal with even emotionally charged situations, but I dunno...I can't help but feel reality is often a lot more complex than that. Maybe I'm too cynical if I say that even people who are generally emotionally mature can be put into situations that'll make them dismiss procedures and lose their temper. I know I've seen several examples in real life. Or maybe 99% of humanity simply isn't emotionally mature.

Why you and the other guy felt the need to even interject is also beyond me, since my comment wasn't even initially directed towards either of you.

Gotcha. So we're only allowed to talk to you if you talk to us first.

I'll try to remember that and refrain from communication with you in the future.

I'd have more to say, but Guest here pretty much nailed it for me. You really do sound more like a technical manual than anything familiar with human nature.

Oddball wrote:

Why you and the other guy felt the need to even interject is also beyond me, since my comment wasn't even initially directed towards either of you.

Gotcha. So we're only allowed to talk to you if you talk to us first.

I'll try to remember that and refrain from communication with you in the future.

I'd have more to say, but Guest here pretty much nailed it for me. You really do sound more like a technical manual than anything familiar with human nature.

Oh look, disregarding the actual truth of my statement into favor of putting words in my mouth. Yes, truly your insight into what constitutes quality communication is stifling. Honestly, you sound like someone who's pointlessly whining because he butted in when it wasn't really necessary to do so.

So what exactly is the truth in "Why you and the other guy felt the need to even interject is also beyond me, since my comment wasn't even initially directed towards either of you," if it's not "I wasn't talking to you, so don't talk to me?"

I'm curious.