Katawa Shoujo Forums

Lots of spoilers for all routes in this post.

Well I won't debate your views on politics - although I disagree with them wholeheartedly, this is not really the place for such arguments. I will say, however, that your interpretation of the actual content of Katawa Shoujo seems flawed. In Emi's route, for example, Emi and Hisao begin having sex well before Emi is actually willing to fully commit to the relationship. Their first sexual encounter, in fact, is basically born of Emi's need for something to physically distract her from being temporarily unable to walk (at that point, she has just been confined to a wheelchair), but although being unable to walk is deeply disturbing to her, she refuses to tell Hisao anything about those memories that haunt her. I mean, that's basically the major conflict of the story arc. They have sex several times (two encounters are featured in the text of the story, but it is implied that they're sexually active at other times as well) in this relationship that Emi very adamantly does not view as a long-term thing. If you reach one of her bad endings, you can see she is so well-prepared for a breakup that she has actually rehearsed what she will say in the event of one.

Most of the other sex scenes are no better in terms of "elucidat[ing] the human level of sex" in terms of it being a "binding between two people who love each other not just today, nor tomorrow, but now and forever":

• In Hanako's route, Hisao almost rapes Hanako - he realizes the next day that he never explicitly asked her for consent, and doubts whether she had enough strength of will to object on her own.
• You could also make a case for almost-rape in the atelier scene of Rin's route, if you propose that she is in an altered mental state at that point (I mean, the scene is even called "Delirium") and thus cannot consent. And even Rin's "better" sex scene, during Without Breathing, Without a Sound, occurs at a point in the relationship where Rin has not confessed her feelings for Hisao, and Hisao has still not fully recovered from his anger at Rin because of her dismissive treatment of him leading up to the exhibition. Even afterwards, when she does confess, he's not entirely willing to return the admission of love. There are also very strong literary themes in Rin's route about living in the present, seizing the moment, the inability of humans to truly understand each other, etc.
• In Lilly's route, every sex scene occurs while Lilly is aware that she will be (or might be) leaving for Scotland soon, but has not yet told this to Hisao.
• In Shizune's route, there is more borderline rape! Note that when Shizune ties Hisao's hands to the chair, it entirely prevents him from communicating with her. Now you could argue that he could still make his objections (if he had any) known by struggling to break free or something, but it's still an incredibly coercive position to be put in, because any objection to sex would have to be extremely awkward and possibly endanger the entire relationship. Later on, on the bad path, Hisao cheats on Shizune with Misha, in a sex scene that is comprised of basically nothing but shame and regret. Even the last sex scene in the good path of Shizune's route is not as much a celebration of a committed long-term relationship as it might seem, because it is implied in the good ending that Shizune and Hisao are going separate ways after graduation.

And of course, although you mention responsibility and STDs, Hisao is only responsible enough to use a condom in 1 out of 5 routes. Whoops =/

I will agree that Katawa Shoujo does portray a very deep level of emotional commitment and love, but that love is usually shown to be depressingly fleeting, and it is almost always in spite of the often messy and awkward sexual encounters, not strengthened by them.

These forums are always so interesting. One poster has a very idealistic view of the sex scenes, and one has a cynical view of them. I suppose both interpretations are valid in a sense.

Let me put it this way. Sex is shown as being a very human act. Sometimes, it is portrayed as an act of pure love. Other times, it's a coping mechanism. And sometimes, it is shown to be an act of complete idiocy. Both the positives and negatives of sex are shown. Well, except for accidental pregnancy at least. Besides, Hisao does use a condom at the last sex scene of Emi's route and Lilly explicitly states that she uses birth control. Rin is ... Rin and Shizune's sex scene was perfectly in-character.

Oh, and Hisao's scene with Hanako was not rape. She practically led him on! She freakin stripped, so there's no arguement that she wanted it and that the sex was consensual. It was just consensual for all the wrong reasons.

Mirrormn wrote:Lots of spoilers for all routes in this post.

Well I won't debate your views on politics - although I disagree with them wholeheartedly, this is not really the place for such arguments.

Agreed. I imagine you are far from alone.

I will say, however, that your interpretation of the actual content of Katawa Shoujo seems flawed. In Emi's route, for example, Emi and Hisao begin having sex well before Emi is actually willing to fully commit to the relationship.

I did not get the impression - especially considering the route I took - that Hisao was of the same notion. I guess I was speaking from his point-of-view.

Their first sexual encounter, in fact, is basically born of Emi's need for something to physically distract her from being temporarily unable to walk (at that point, she has just been confined to a wheelchair), but although being unable to walk is deeply disturbing to her, she refuses to tell Hisao anything about those memories that haunt her. I mean, that's basically the major conflict of the story arc. They have sex several times (two encounters are featured in the text of the story, but it is implied that they're sexually active at other times as well) in this relationship that Emi very adamantly does not view as a long-term thing. If you reach one of her bad endings, you can see she is so well-prepared for a breakup that she has actually rehearsed what she will say in the event of one.

If you don't commit - if you take a path of non-commitment like Emi tries - you get the bad ending. I'm not surprised, nor disheartened by that.

Similarly, if you have sex with Misha you get the bad ending. The writers demonstrate that there's wisdom in not copulating with your girlfriend's best friend - because it won't solve any problems she may have. In fact, it might make more.

Most of the other sex scenes are no better in terms of "elucidat[ing] the human level of sex" in terms of it being a "binding between two people who love each other not just today, nor tomorrow, but now and forever":

Perhaps it was the subject matter in Emi's Route. I think I do agree with you, though, that the sex isn't always a sign of commitment in this game. Shizune's route, for one, concerns me. She doesn't seem like a person who goes for commitment. I haven't gotten far enough to say anything about the other two's routes, but I sadly imagine it's much the same.

Nonetheless, Emi's route impressed me.

[*]In Lilly's route, every sex scene occurs while Lilly is aware that she will be (or might be) leaving for Scotland soon, but has not yet told this to Hisao.

I believe that leads to the bad/neutral ending, does it not?

Any way about it, I have not seen it as yet and cannot judge it. I suppose I can only speak confidently about Emi's good Route and Shizune's Route.

[*]In Shizune's route, there is more borderline rape!

Absolutely!

Note that when Shizune ties Hisao's hands to the chair, it entirely prevents him from communicating with her. Now you could argue that he could still make his objections (if he had any) known by struggling to break free or something, but it's still an incredibly coercive position to be put in, because any objection to sex would have to be extremely awkward and possibly endanger the entire relationship.

Shizune is that kind of person, isn't she? Good point. And I'll admit this game is far from perfect. I still like Emi's Good Route and think it reflects a wholesome idea of sexuality - at least on the part of Hisao (you in the game).

On the other hand, I don't think you could call any of their relationships simply a casual one. Perhaps the idea of (lifetime) commitment is still beyond the girls and Hisao, but sex as a flippant act ultimately (as far as I know) is not a teaching of this game.

Later on, on the bad path, Hisao cheats on Shizune with Misha, in a sex scene that is comprised of basically nothing but shame and regret.

I never said it always put the positive spin on sex. I said it provided both sides of romantic and sexual relationships. One side of that is that sexual irresponsibility is shameful, wrong, and has bad consequences for you and those you love. Just as with any kind of irresponsibility. And so far I have no qualms with what the game makers view as responsible. (I have yet to play all of Lilly, Hanako, or Ren, so I have plenty of time to be proven wrong. However, if the reviews are worth noting, I don't think I will be - at least not completely.)

Even the last sex scene in the good path of Shizune's route is not as much a celebration of a committed long-term relationship as it might seem, because it is implied in the good ending that Shizune and Hisao are going separate ways after graduation.[/list]

I'm not trying to hold this game up as if it were the Bible, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or anything. But like it or not, this game does have content and value for moral, God-fearing people. I wouldn't send a twelve year-old to play on it. But I think a Catholic or Christian who has a love of God, a desire to do what is good and just, and who interprets things with a mind of compassion and a grain of salt can find moral and spiritual value in this game. I think so because I have.

I'd say a relationship that lasted a year is a good start for a senior in high school, sex or no sex. It's not like this was a one-week or one-month fling.

That said, I concede an uncertainty regarding the permanence of Shizune and Hisao's relationship. Shizune... doesn't seem like the sort to be committed "until death do we part".

And of course, although you mention responsibility and STDs, Hisao is only responsible enough to use a condom in 1 out of 5 routes. Whoops =/

Contraception aside, there is more to a relationship than sex. While STDs and children are a part of it, emotional baggage and conflicts are another. The STDs and children they did not deal with. The emotions, they did, in good measure and overflowing. A weakness of this game is not addressing sexual consequences. A strength which many visual novels fail utterly in is emotional consequences and responsibilities. Maybe it's my ignorance, but I've never seen a VN where you actually have to be an emotional support - a boyfriend - almost a husband - for your girlfriend. And certainly not in the deep, personal, relevant terms this game takes emotional and psychological depths to.

This game has a strength worth praising and exhorting that most others don't. It has emotional depth. It even has some wisdom.

I will agree that Katawa Shoujo does portray a very deep level of emotional commitment and love, but that love is usually shown to be depressingly fleeting, and it is almost always in spite of the often messy and awkward sexual encounters, not strengthened by them.

Once again, never having played Rin, Hanako, or all of Lilly, I can't say for sure.

Maybe it's simply that I see the game - perhaps the world - through different eyes. It's not a perfect game. I've got my complaints about it. But for what it is, it's surprisingly good, and can offer much to the soul thirsting for love.

I think... it even actually helped me deepen my relationship with my Lord Jesus Christ a bit. It's difficult to put into words (especially considering I have school tomorrow and ought to go to bed), but this game, though imperfectly, has helped me to love God, and understand what He wants with me, and the lengths he's willing to go to do that.

I also understand more clearly why sex is so important. Maybe I am interpreting it through a Christian lens. But thanks to my playing Emi's Route, I understand now more clearly than ever why the sexual act is so important, and not to be trivialized. To trivialize it would be to make it so much less wonderful than what it really is, and to make the one you are having it with so much less special.

I don't expect you to understand. Or to want to. But I feel I have been made a happier, healthier, and more loving person by this game. And this is how.

encrypted12345 wrote:These forums are always so interesting. One poster has a very idealistic view of the sex scenes, and one has a cynical view of them. I suppose both interpretations are valid in a sense.

Let me put it this way. Sex is shown as being a very human act. Sometimes, it is portrayed as an act of pure love. Other times, it's a coping mechanism. And sometimes, it is shown to be an act of complete idiocy. Both the positives and negatives of sex are shown. Well, except for accidental pregnancy at least. Besides, Hisao does use a condom at the last sex scene of Emi's route and Lilly explicitly states that she uses birth control. Rin is ... Rin and Shizune's sex scene was perfectly in-character.

Oh, and Hisao's scene with Hanako was not rape. She practically led him on! She freakin stripped, so there's no arguement that she wanted it and that the sex was consensual. It was just consensual for all the wrong reasons.

All those spoilers....

Nonetheless, well put.

Paddy wrote: I also understand more clearly why sex is so important. Maybe I am interpreting it through a Christian lens. But thanks to my playing Emi's Route, I understand now more clearly than ever why the sexual act is so important, and not to be trivialized. To trivialize it would be to make it so much less wonderful than what it really is, and to make the one you are having it with so much less special.

I don't expect you to understand. Or to want to. But I feel I have been made a happier, healthier, and more loving person by this game. And this is how.

Well, I can agree that the last sex scene in Emi's route is definitely the "purest" in the game, and certainly something that can be celebrated as a wonderful affirmation of their finally-fully-committed relationship. It's a really heartwarming ending. And although I may not see the other sex scenes through quite the same lens as you (unsurprisingly, since I am a cynical atheist), I do think that all of the sexual encounters in the game, because of the contexts and circumstances surrounding them, are important to the plot and profoundly meaningful in some way. The meaning is just usually more complex than a reflection of a perfectly committed relationship. As encrypted12345 says:

encrypted12345 wrote:Sex is shown as being a very human act. Sometimes, it is portrayed as an act of pure love. Other times, it's a coping mechanism. And sometimes, it is shown to be an act of complete idiocy. Both the positives and negatives of sex are shown.

Also,

encrypted12345 wrote:Oh, and Hisao's scene with Hanako was not rape. She practically led him on! She freakin stripped, so there's no arguement that she wanted it and that the sex was consensual. It was just consensual for all the wrong reasons.

Eh... simply taking your clothes off doesn't mean you consent to sex. Hanako's intention in stripping was to reveal her body to Hisao for emotional and informative reasons, not necessarily to just let him have his way with it. Now, personally, I don't think it was rape, since she could have verbally withdrawn consent at any time. On the other hand, if it were me in Hisao's place, you can be damn sure I would be asking "Hanako, are you sure you want to do this?" to make sure there's no ambiguity.

I think a better argument for the consensuality of the act would be that Hanako later admits that she purposefully allowed Hisao to have sex with her, even though she didn't enjoy it, because she wanted him to see her as something with value. Of course, that just adds another layer of awkwardness and manipulation to the whole situation.

Mirrormn wrote:Well, I can agree that the last sex scene in Emi's route is definitely the "purest" in the game, and certainly something that can be celebrated as a wonderful affirmation of their finally-fully-committed relationship. It's a really heartwarming ending.

Daawwww, I knew you had it in you.

And although I may not see the other sex scenes through quite the same lens as you (unsurprisingly, since I am a cynical atheist),

Neither am I surprised nor am I offended. *offers a cyber-hug*

I do think that all of the sexual encounters in the game, because of the contexts and circumstances surrounding them, are important to the plot and profoundly meaningful in some way. The meaning is just usually more complex than a reflection of a perfectly committed relationship. As encrypted12345 says:

encrypted12345 wrote:Sex is shown as being a very human act. Sometimes, it is portrayed as an act of pure love. Other times, it's a coping mechanism. And sometimes, it is shown to be an act of complete idiocy. Both the positives and negatives of sex are shown.

I don't deny that. It is a very sad thing when Emi uses sex and hormones to push Hisao away from her. Using sex to keep your beloved away is entirely contrary to everything I believe about love and sex. I'm sure you're the same way.

I mean, I realize there's more to sex, in the context of the story, than fidelity and commitment. But commitment is a subject which interests me, so naturally I'd notice it.

I think it means to me what it tends to mean to a lot of people.

When I first heard about it, I was a bit hesitant to start it up, as I didn't have an idea what to expect.

When I finally got to playing it... I don't think I've enjoyed anything more than Katawa Shoujo in a long, long time.

The writers at 4LS did an amazing job with character development and the story is beautifully done.

There are so many lessons that can be got from Katawa Shoujo; don't let yourself be held back, live life every day, don't judge others by the way they look.

For the entire time I've been playing, I've found myself touched. I've found myself being able to relate to the characters in many ways.

Being bullied, being alone, things I can relate to. It may just be a visual novel but helps me.

I live my life. And when I play Katawa Shoujo, I feel happy because I can relate. Because I feel. Because I can cry, and laugh. Smile and learn.

I found myself wishing for more and hoping that it wouldn't end.

It may sound odd, but it helps. Thank you, 4LS.

I was stuck in the same rut, being an underclassmen in high school, i knew this rut would repeat.

Here is an Idea
Band (main reason i go)
Some class
Some Class and lunch
my worse classes are 4th period
last period is Geography, very laid back
We have a block schedule, so it changes, in the lunch period for B Days, I have Jazz Band, I play a rockin bass!

Anyway, onto the point
A rut is useless and meaningless, Im repeatedly getting dragged into the exact same conversations every day
Its always Half Life/Garrys Mod/Video game this, or WW2 That
But, I played this game

I now come to wonder how I can pull myself out of this, I would like to be more outgoing, I am going to start waking up at around 6:00-6:30 every morning for a short jog and morning push ups, Marching Band is very fun for me and this simply strengthens that, This was because of Emi
Lilly really pushed me beyond my Limits, I have never had a relationship with the Opposite Sex, instead, I would simply talk and tense up, I was cursed to be shy and I will cope with it. Its more like fear of rejection, but usually, it just takes an after school activity, the problem is, I am overly complicated as a person, Every joke i make is overly intelligent, meant to make only the Alpha/Beta Nerds laugh.
Each path touched me in it's own way, but as i said Lilly's hit me the hardest, Also, this helped resurface the nicer me, for the most part, I am known as the person who is too nice, i hate saying no, because then when people are sad about how I didnt want to help them, It also saddens me.

I had originally signed up for some break in my usual gaming experience, I am a strategist, always thinking up ways to outsmart my opponent, and I have had many strokes of brilliance before, but, being in the damned rut Im in, i decided to break the routine.

now I feel different, im not sure what to do, Its irritating, oh so irritating.