Katawa Shoujo Forums

Nekken wrote:

oneyoudontknow wrote:1:
No. What the game fails to deliver is a convincing depiction of someone who is blind or suffering from some other kind of disability. It is too nice. Too positive. There is never some real kind of crisis.

It sounds like you were expecting to see some kind of disability-related crisis in each path. What sorts of things were you thinking of?

I am a critic... I do not have to offer a solution. I criticize. That is how reviewing works. Or do you expect Roger Ebert -- to bring up a prominent example -- writing endlessly about what could have been done better in scene A and scene B? Certainly not.

What I would have loved to see might have been something that breaks a flow a bit. Makes you think, interact with more characters and less of the positivism.

Nekken wrote:

Lilly says in the Hanako branch, that the school is far from perfect and has cliques and groups, which would create some 'trouble' or so; bullying or what not. Such is never there. There is hardly ever a reference to what is going on in the school; Hanako's incident or the epileptic fit are two examples for the contrary. The player is never in contact with this ... is never immersed on such a level as to experience it and to see the reactions of the 'characters'.

Hisao is never particularly big in the social scene of his school, it's true. The closest he ever gets is joining the Student Council, and even that is mostly behind-the-scenes work. But given that he transferred into the school halfway through his senior year, I'm not sure that's necessarily unrealistic: he hasn't had much time to integrate, he isn't going to get much time to integrate because he will graduate in less than a year, and everyone in the school would know this. That doesn't leave much opportunity to get into the loop, so to speak.

True ... but ... when he moves towards his room for the first time, he there is some tv room with other people or so ... why does he never go there? Such simple things are missing.

Nekken wrote:

Then there is the aspect of the disabilities. Why does Lilly never appear in an non-immaculate kind of way?

I'm not sure I understand: what do you mean by "non-immaculate"?

Crazy hair ... some small slip ... the things that make us human. At university I had to tell something a lot of time to move the rest of toothpaste from this mouth away. Again, the simply things ... they are not there.

Nekken wrote:

To name an obvious example. In order to pity them, the game would have had to move a good deal in another direction.

But the game wasn't trying to get you to pity them: quite the opposite, in fact. You aren't supposed to pity them, and a significant part of the game is devoted to telling you why you shouldn't.

What should have been done is to show the struggle a bit more. We, the normal ones, have difficulties in getting along and progress, while in this game everything was depicted in a too streamlined kind of way.

Three of the girls -Shizune, Lilly, and Rin- have been dealing with their disabilities their whole lives. Especially in Lilly's and Rin's cases, dealing with the world around them has become almost a background detail: their efforts are not insignificant, but they are automatic, and not the sort of thing they'd think to call out unless specifically asked. Shizune's disability presents more difficulty in dealing with people than with things, but as her path progresses they actually do touch on this.

Emi is a different case, having acquired her disability later in life than any of the others. Even in her case, though, she has had eight years to learn how to deal with her disability, and she's stated to have put in a lot of up-front effort into doing things like re-learning how to walk. By the time of the game, that effort has paid off, but there are still things she has to deal with: we see what happens, for example, when she doesn't take adequate care of what remains of her legs.

Hanako is another case entirely, as the only one who really hasn't dealt with her disability (though even she is trying to). It's also interesting in that things get much, much worse before they get better (if they ever do), and it's all the player's fault. Although you help her achieve a sort of catharsis by the end, that's really the only thing you do to help her, and then only after you've managed to mess both of you up rather severely.

Swing and a miss. You fail to get what I am referring to with in a too streamlined kind of way. If everything is positive and nice and we are a wonderful (but strange) kind of family in this game, then why do we need such disabled characters in this setting after all?

Nekken wrote:

What does the game give you at the end of the day? Are you able to understand someone better who is blind?

Marginally, yes, but as far as this goes I found more value in the questions the game leaves unanswered. How did Lilly plan on getting back to the house from the cornfield? Rin specifically mentions having trouble with shirts: what about pants, especially given that she wears the boys' uniform? How did Shizune learn sign language in a household (and, sadly, educational system) so hostile to the idea? The game touches on the basics of their situations, then asks enough questions to leave the reader wanting to know more, and I think this is a good thing.

see above. Same issue.

Now we see you true colors.

Let us pose a question. As you have stated you normally review music and it is obvious that you don’t read VN’s so why did you write a review of KS? I have a theory, you saw something that had created a buzz and decided to have a look, when you discovered that this piece of ART went against your view of the world you wrote this, let's call it what it really is, an attack with an agenda. You sought to punch as many holes in it as you felt you could get away with. From your arguments I can only conclude that you are an individual that derives pleasure from experiencing other’s pain. Would you kick the cane out of under an elderly man and watch him struggle to get up and then say to him I was moved by your struggle. Is it really that you can’t see the value in stories that lift people's spirit with out crushing it first. Is it that you are so jaded that you can’t experience joy with out pain or see that others can. “Positivism must be rejected” so the world must be bathed in doom and misery to be real, if this is your outlook on life I feel sorry for you. For your readers that might have considered reading KS and thus been introduced to VN’s as new form of entertainment that they may have enjoyed, Sir you have done them a great disservice. Is KS perfect NO. Can it be improved YES. But In an industry that is still looking for its artistic path KS is a good step in the right direction and should be given it’s rightly dues. A critic that knows not of what he criticizes is nothing more that an ignorant bully.

Tbarey wrote: Is it really that you can’t see the value in stories that lift people's spirit with out crushing it first. Is it that you are so jaded that you can’t experience joy with out pain or see that others can. “Positivism must be rejected” so the world must be bathed in doom and misery to be real, if this is your outlook on life I feel sorry for you. For your readers that might have considered reading KS and thus been introduced to VN’s as new form of entertainment that they may have enjoyed, Sir you have done them a great disservice. Is KS perfect NO. Can it be improved YES. But In an industry that is still looking for its artistic path KS is a good step in the right direction and should be given it’s rightly dues. A critic that knows not of what he criticizes is nothing more that an ignorant bully.

.......... Yeah, this is the feeling I got too. oneyoudon'tknow, I'm going to say one thing. Absolute cynicism is as stupidly naive as absolute idealism. Yes, people suffer. But at the same time, you must remember that yes, people smile. I have seen people living is shitty conditions. And I have seen those people be earnestly happy. Calling those smiles lies is as naive as calling the suffering fake.

EDIT: How did I butcher the name that badly? Fixed.

oneyoudon'tknow

1. It's true that no detailed action for what the female characters done. (Like how they live.)
2. This game is quite perfect. Not so many serious things happen to the female characters because of their disabilities. (Except Mental imbalance. Imo it is a serious issue)
But also there are some other reason developer chose to do it this way.
a) Most of the games nowadays are perfect. (Maybe not. Perhaps you can introduce me some good game that are not so perfect?)
b) >90% of Visual Novel are have perfect character and good ending ? (Expect this i think. http://vndb.org/g1112)
3. After finishing the game, many things are not explained properly !!
4. And also, I hope they have some more "Complete" ending. Not satisfied! (Especially Hanako and Lilly!) I love to know how they live when they are old.(Maybe 1 year later). It makes me thinks a lot when the games end.
5. The game ignores the main character parent too much!! (It's like never been discussed in the game). At least bring the female character to his home? See what their parents think about them? Or maybe the main character returns to his home and tell how much he miss them? [Knowing that Hanako or Emi is extremely sad when they lose their parents ]
6. There are so many deep adjectives on their narration! Gotta brush up my English.

Tbarey wrote:Now we see you true colors.

Let us pose a question. As you have stated you normally review music and it is obvious that you don’t read VN’s so why did you write a review of KS?

It is written in my magazine.

Tbarey wrote:I have a theory, you saw something that had created a buzz and decided to have a look, when you discovered that this piece of ART went against your view of the world you wrote this, let's call it what it really is, an attack with an agenda. You sought to punch as many holes in it as you felt you could get away with.

That is what a reviewer/writer/commentary/critic is ought to do. A writer should always have a neutral perspective, approach a work of art unbiased and without a preconception. The first reviews one mine lacked this aspect, but the more and more I wrote, this aspect simply came up naturally. I have written 600+ reviews so far and over a span of five to six (?) years at least; for several magazines. I have seen much in terms of writing: pointless bashing, hysterically praises and well composed ones. There is one feedback that I always tend to receive: I am an honest writer and bands like to have my feedback, even though I can be nit-picky and harsh at times.

edit:
to give you can example of what I am talking about:
the next edition of my magazine will have a review on a band, whose debut album has received a 7/10 and a 8/10; among others. You might agree that these are really good scores, accordingly, the music has to be good. I have the CD, I bought it. When it comes to measuring the art, then it should definitely not exceed a 5/10 or 5,5/10. There are hardly good elements, there is the constant bombardment of vocals -- the singer hardly shuts up, even though some compositions grad on for quite a while; > 10 minutes -- and the general lack of innovation. Why does such a band receive such a praise? I will tell you, reviews are often rushed and not critical, because would these be, then the writers would not get promos anymore. This is what annoys me about the Wikipedia article. This encouraged me to continue writing on the game. If you do not think critically, then what does this say about you? About your intellect?

Tbarey wrote:From your arguments I can only conclude that you are an individual that derives pleasure from experiencing other’s pain. Would you kick the cane out of under an elderly man and watch him struggle to get up and then say to him I was moved by your struggle. Is it really that you can’t see the value in stories that lift people's spirit with out crushing it first. Is it that you are so jaded that you can’t experience joy with out pain or see that others can. “Positivism must be rejected” so the world must be bathed in doom and misery to be real, if this is your outlook on life I feel sorry for you. For your readers that might have considered reading KS and thus been introduced to VN’s as new form of entertainment that they may have enjoyed, Sir you have done them a great disservice. Is KS perfect NO. Can it be improved YES. But In an industry that is still looking for its artistic path KS is a good step in the right direction and should be given it’s rightly dues. A critic that knows not of what he criticizes is nothing more that an ignorant bully.

It is funny how you attack me personally, while ignoring the obvious fallacies in the game. A low point ... and it tells a lot about you and yourself.

And I hate it when people cut the world in a Manichean one. While I reject Positivism -- for a lot of reasons, and foremost because of the harm that is and has been done by it -- it does not mean that I would like to see the world drown in misery. I have never written such. When you abandon the realm of positivism and take off the rose-tinged glasses, you enter reality and see what really happens. How sad that this has not been mentioned above.

If you want to paint the characters in a utopian state of mind, then so be it. I will not stop you; nor will I ever intend to do so. But an Utopia is something you long for, but it blurs your eyes and makes you be believe in something that is not real. If you fall back on this aspect and make it reality, then what do you think that you can achieve or take from it? Nothing. If you do not provide a connection between the real and the utopian, then the message will remain at a stage in which it is impossible to understand. Like in this game. The game circles around itself, but fails to establish a connection.

It would have been nice to see Shizune discuss something with some other business partners of her father.
It would have been nice to see Emi have a running event with normal people.
Lilly teaching a class of normal children
Hanako could do nothing, because her character had never been given granted with anything meaningful that would allow such a thing.
Rin has had such a thing ... in limits, but it could have been explored much deeper. The focus had been sub-par.

I would like to quite Walter Lippmann:

There are portions of the sovereign people who spend most of their
spare time and spare money on motoring and comparing motor cars, on
bridge-whist and post-mortems, on moving-pictures and potboilers,
talking always to the same people with minute variations on the same
old themes. They cannot really be said to suffer from censorship, or
secrecy, the high cost or the difficulty of communication. They suffer
from anemia, from lack of appetite and curiosity for the human scene.
Theirs is no problem of access to the world outside. Worlds of
interest are waiting for them to explore, and they do not enter.

They move, as if on a leash, within a fixed radius of acquaintances
according to the law and the gospel of their social set. Among men the
circle of talk in business and at the club and in the smoking car is
wider than the set to which they belong. Among women the social set
and the circle of talk are frequently almost identical. It is in the
social set that ideas derived from reading and lectures and from the
circle of talk converge, are sorted out, accepted, rejected, judged
and sanctioned. There it is finally decided in each phase of a
discussion which authorities and which sources of information are
admissible, and which not.

http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/6456/pg6456.txt
Not perfect, but the message should get through I think.

And about this buzz thing ... I do not care. I never cared and I will never care. Why would I write about tapes that have a circulation of less than fifty copies at times? Why don't I cover more established and famous bands? I could easily create such a thing, by writing an apology for Metallica's latest collaboration album, but I refuse to do so; and believe me, it is hard for me to do so, because it hurts to see how bad it is received my metal fans and how ignorant they are about what is going on there. Another example had been Ulver and their complex concept album: My review might be the only one that actually discussed in depth what the band intended to express. I do not see it as complete ... but eleven pages are enough for the moment.

Things should be discussed, drawn lights upon from as much angles as possible; see Emi's plot. This is how science works, this is how art should generally be interpreted. Nothing else is being done by me. Sure, my criticism is hard, but I have merely scratched the surface, because I refused to dig even deeper into the concept and expose the psychological short-comings as well as the apparent -- did you not see them? -- contradictions in the game. If you drown in something, let it embrace you and hug you, then you loose your sense of reality and you move, equally like those in the game, on a hill, which is as connected to reality as those characters in the game.

You should read what we had written here:
http://www.metal-archives.com/board/vie ... 8#p2010318

I first saw this game on the Escapist. A site that has some solid writers, but with reviews that are often too short and too shallow.

8823 wrote:oneyoudon'tknow

1. It's true that no detailed action for what the female characters done. (Like how they live.)

I do not know what you refer to.

8823 wrote:2. This game is quite perfect. Not so many serious things happen to the female characters because of their disabilities. (Except Mental imbalance. Imo it is a serious issue)
But also there are some other reason developer chose to do it this way.
a) Most of the games nowadays are perfect. (Maybe not. Perhaps you can introduce me some good game that are not so perfect?)
b) >90% of Visual Novel are have perfect character and good ending ? (Expect this i think. http://vndb.org/g1112)

Modern games are generally boring. The independent scene offers some nice stuff now and then ...
I am busy enough with writing on music, I hardly play games these days (Yet, I still want to play Icewind Dale 2 at some point)

8823 wrote:3. After finishing the game, many things are not explained properly !!

Read my review. You might find some more ...

8823 wrote:4. And also, I hope they have some more "Complete" ending. Not satisfied! (Especially Hanako and Lilly!) I love to know how they live when they are old.(Maybe 1 year later). It makes me thinks a lot when the games end.

Indeed.

8823 wrote:5. The game ignores the main character parent too much!! (It's like never been discussed in the game). At least bring the female character to his home? See what their parents think about them? Or maybe the main character returns to his home and tell how much he miss them? [Knowing that Hanako or Emi is extremely sad when they lose their parents ]

Correct, but only one example. They do not seem to care about his life at all, even though he had been on the precipice towards death. I have written about this aspect in my magazine as well.

edit:
some words forgotten.

oneyoudontknow wrote:as I had written before:
Positivism must be rejected.
http://www.amazon.com/Smile-Die-Positiv ... 01&sr=8-12
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/10/13/ ... ight_sided

If everything is wonderful and nice and wonderful, how do you expect to move someone? A drama, and this game has basically such a setting, is not merely reduced to this positive vibe, which flows through every line of the game. The character remain shallow, because they are not allowed to fail. They are not allowed to get exposed and shown their limits, because the moment before this happens, the game slams you in the face and screams: it (will) is all be fine.

See, this is what I don't get about your review: there are a number of things you complain about that leave me wondering if we actually played the same game. You talk about things being universally happy and never showing anyone's flaws, but the game that I played was certainly not universally happy, and it did in fact show character flaws along every path. To me, your critique sounds as though you may as well have complained about the game's shooting controls not being accurate enough.

oneyoudontknow wrote:That is what a reviewer/writer/commentary/critic is ought to do. A writer should always have a neutral perspective, approach a work of art unbiased and without a preconception.

When you abandon the realm of positivism and take off the rose-tinged glasses, you enter reality and see what really happens.

Stop thinking that your unbiased. Your glasses are not rose-tinged, but they are darkly shaded. Unbiased means that one needs to analyze both the positive and the negative. You can't help but just see the negative.

oneyoudontknow wrote:If you want to paint the characters in a utopian state of mind, then so be it. I will not stop you; nor will I ever intend to do so. But an Utopia is something you long for, but it blurs your eyes and makes you be believe in something that is not real. If you fall back on this aspect and make it reality, then what do you think that you can achieve or take from it? Nothing. If you do not provide a connection between the real and the utopian, then the message will remain at a stage in which it is impossible to understand. Like in this game. The game circles around itself, but fails to establish a connection.

It does using realistic characters and the slice of life plot. The plots that occur in this game are mundane, and that is why empathy is established. The characters are who they are, and if you subconsciously recognize yourself or the people you know, you can't help but feel empathy. Your inability to at least realize this is why I think you simply haven't met enough people.

Walter Lippmann wrote:There are portions of the sovereign people who spend most of their
spare time and spare money on motoring and comparing motor cars, on
bridge-whist and post-mortems, on moving-pictures and potboilers,
talking always to the same people with minute variations on the same
old themes. They cannot really be said to suffer from censorship, or
secrecy, the high cost or the difficulty of communication. They suffer
from anemia, from lack of appetite and curiosity for the human scene.
Theirs is no problem of access to the world outside. Worlds of
interest are waiting for them to explore, and they do not enter.

They move, as if on a leash, within a fixed radius of acquaintances
according to the law and the gospel of their social set. Among men the
circle of talk in business and at the club and in the smoking car is
wider than the set to which they belong. Among women the social set
and the circle of talk are frequently almost identical. It is in the
social set that ideas derived from reading and lectures and from the
circle of talk converge, are sorted out, accepted, rejected, judged
and sanctioned. There it is finally decided in each phase of a
discussion which authorities and which sources of information are
admissible, and which not.

This quote would apply if Katawa Shoujo intricately explored the human condition or human society or whatever. It does not and never was supposed to. It... describes individual humans themselves. The human archetype, I suppose. Read the link I put up several times in this thread!!

oneyoudontknow wrote:I refused to dig even deeper into the concept and expose the psychological short-comings as well as the apparent -- did you not see them? -- contradictions in the game.

...... Psychological shortcomings, huh? If you dug deeper, then you wouldn't see any. This is your major problem right here. Come at me and tell of these psychological shortcomings. This will be fun. Gotta use what I learned in psychology classes for something.

I'd like to remind people to keep discussion civil. I'm looking at you in particular, Tbarey.

oneyoudontknow wrote:. Wikipedia is a failed experiment ... again ... in a strange kind of way. To go into details would derail this thread, though; Germans might know what I am talking about.

I'm German, but I don't.

You can argue as much as you want ... the absence is a flaw. There is also the aspect that the running festival is not mentioned in the Shizune branch, which is especially strange, because Hisao could have been involved in this project as well.

There are also Hanako's birthday and Lilly's trip to Scotland that are not mentioned in any path but Lilly's and Hanako's
There's the fishing trip which only occurs in Shizune's path, the art exhibition that occurs only in Rin's, the Science club that is only in Emi's...
It is a defining property of Visual Novels that different stuff happens depending on your choices. If you object to that, VN's aren't for you. Read a book instead. (Better not make it a CYOA either...)

Dear Silentcook, I hear you, but please don’t worry this will be my last post for he is just not worth my aggravation.

At this point of time, I'm starting to think that every reviewer who says that Katawa Shoujo is badly written just can't appreciate the Slice of Life genre. It's quite depressing when people dismiss an entire genre as bad writing. I suppose the word cruft could use some work, but I honestly don't think that there's anything wrong with the pacing itself. Except for maybe Shizune's route, but that's justified by how Shizune prefers to compartmentalize the events in her life, so of course the plot itself would seem compartmentalized.