Katawa Shoujo Forums

Oscar Wildecat wrote:(I wonder if Lilly ever pulled used quote out against Shizune... )

Pointless, since she'd never hear it...

That aside, not a convincing argument, since even Lewis uses 'may be' and not 'will be'. After all, Lewis's God does exactly that all the time, although somehow that God must allow for free will.

brythain wrote:

Oscar Wildecat wrote:(I wonder if Lilly ever pulled used quote out against Shizune... )

Pointless, since she'd never hear it...

.... ....

brythain wrote:That aside, not a convincing argument, since even Lewis uses 'may be' and not 'will be'. After all, Lewis's God does exactly that all the time, although somehow that God must allow for free will.

I'm not sure if was supposed to be an argument, but rather an observation. And free will is a pesky thing, is it not?

Anyway, I think Shizune's problem is that she gets so caught up in "helping people" that she looses sight of the people she's supposed to be helping.

[Insert quotes about forests and trees here.]

Oscar Wildecat wrote:

brythain wrote:

Oscar Wildecat wrote:(I wonder if Lilly ever pulled used quote out against Shizune... )

Pointless, since she'd never hear it...

.... ....

brythain wrote:That aside, not a convincing argument, since even Lewis uses 'may be' and not 'will be'. After all, Lewis's God does exactly that all the time, although somehow that God must allow for free will.

I'm not sure if was supposed to be an argument, but rather an observation. And free will is a pesky thing, is it not?

Anyway, I think Shizune's problem is that she gets so caught up in "helping people" that she looses sight of the people she's supposed to be helping.

[Insert quotes about forests and trees here.]

Indeed, free will is pesky. As for her problem: she actually confesses to that later in the route, so there's hope for her yet!

Valjean Lafitte wrote:

Megumeru wrote:The chair-tying scene?

That's not rape--Hisao actually wants that to happen, he's expecting it.

He wants to have sex with Shizune, he's not expecting her to restrain him for no apparent reason.

I meant he is expecting Shizune to lead to that direction the moment she visits him to the room, not restraining him.

That probably came as a surprise to him, but he did got what he expected.

Valjean Lafitte wrote:

Megumeru wrote:The chair-tying scene?

That's not rape--Hisao actually wants that to happen, he's expecting it.

He wants to have sex with Shizune, he's not expecting her to restrain him for no apparent reason.

I certainly wouldn't say "no apparent reason"... ;D

I still don't really get why people hate Shizune, though I know I won't change anyone's mind.

Linkarena wrote:I still don't really get why people hate Shizune, though I know I won't change anyone's mind.

I don't hate Shizune at all. She reminds me of a particular person who started out like that and decided to do very different things later in life, to everyone else's relief and delight.

Munchenhausen wrote:

Valjean Lafitte wrote:

Megumeru wrote:The chair-tying scene?

That's not rape--Hisao actually wants that to happen, he's expecting it.

He wants to have sex with Shizune, he's not expecting her to restrain him for no apparent reason.

I certainly wouldn't say "no apparent reason"... ;D

Yes, there was no apparent reason. I've been through every thread on this topic and read all the excuses: She was taking charge because he wouldn't, she was giving herself to him, etc.. I've yet to see anyone explain why she had to tie him of all things ("because it was kinky" doesn't cut it) when there are plenty of more considerate and far less risky ways to initiate sex.

No one stops to consider that maybe all the other "first time" sex scenes are romantic for a reason (yes, even Hanako's) -- because this is a romance VN, and it's important that our female and male protagonist are able to physically show their love to each other. But Hisao can't do that. He has no power over his situation other than that he could stop it by knocking over the chair (hurting Shizune, and possibly waking Misha, Hideaki, and Jigoro). Shizune decided, for whatever reason, that she had to be in complete control (despite wanting Hisao to take charge in their second sex scene). He's too wishy-washy to do anything but let her ride him, and although he enjoys it (and even tries to get involved by shaking the chair), Misha's H-scene clearly states that he wanted to able to move around. You know, that whole freedom of movement thing that most people have the benefit of experiencing during their first time, something he himself gets to experience in all the other routes.

But even if you can offer a decent explanation for her actions, the scene itself is absurd. In real life, teenagers with zero sexual experience -- particularly ones who are as nervous and unsure about it as Shizune -- don't tie their partners to chairs without even discussing it with them beforehand. Can anyone here honestly say that their first time was anything like that? The scene's inclusion reeks of sexual fetishism; someone on the team had a bondage fetish, the game was short of a bondage scene, and so one was shoehorned into Shizune's route. The fact that this bizarre, sudden turn of events is never even discussed afterward (again, an anomaly amongst the sex scenes in this game -- in the other routes, sex always comes up for discussion afterwards) makes it feel even more out of place with the rest of the route (and novel).

Linkarena wrote:I still don't really get why people hate Shizune, though I know I won't change anyone's mind.

I don't hate Shizune at all, just the aforementioned scene (which makes me think somewhat less of her, though I still think of her as one of the better written characters in the game).

Valjean Lafitte wrote:The scene's inclusion reeks of sexual fetishism; someone on the team had a bondage fetish, the game was short of a bondage scene, and so one was shoehorned into Shizune's route.

Anal

Jussayin.

Steinherz wrote:

Valjean Lafitte wrote:The scene's inclusion reeks of sexual fetishism; someone on the team had a bondage fetish, the game was short of a bondage scene, and so one was shoehorned into Shizune's route.

Anal

Jussayin.

At least the anal scene is realistic in it's context: Hisao and Emi are two teenagers who had just had intercourse the day before and are now experimenting with an alternative form of sex. It would be an entirely different story if they had tried anal before anything else.

Valjean Lafitte wrote:At least the anal scene is realistic in it's context: Hisao and Emi are two teenagers who had just had intercourse the day before and are now experimenting with an alternative form of sex. It would be an entirely different story if they had tried anal before anything else.

Bondage sex isn't a different kind of intercourse; it's a different approach to the same kind. Shizune is showing Hisao (by tying his hands) what it's like to trust someone when you can't communicate with them, perhaps.

I say 'perhaps' because there is no canonical interpretation for the scene. You are thus free to diss the scene as much as you like. But I will say this: it's not as far-fetched as you might think for a girl about to lose her virginity to want to control the process somewhat—especially if she can't talk or communicate in any direct way if things get out of hand. (Yeah, assumptions etc.)

brythain wrote: But I will say this: it's not as far-fetched as you might think for a girl about to lose her virginity to want to control the process somewhat—especially if she can't talk or communicate in any direct way if things get out of hand. (Yeah, assumptions etc.)

Wanting to control the process and actually taking control away from the other individual are two different things, though. If she wanted to be in control she could have simply pinned Hisao to the bed/ground and he likely would not have fought her off (why would he if he was afraid of hurting her earlier?).

Valjean Lafitte wrote:

brythain wrote: But I will say this: it's not as far-fetched as you might think for a girl about to lose her virginity to want to control the process somewhat—especially if she can't talk or communicate in any direct way if things get out of hand. (Yeah, assumptions etc.)

Wanting to control the process and actually taking control away from the other individual are two different things, though. If she wanted to be in control she could have simply pinned Hisao to the bed/ground and he likely would not have fought her off (why would he if he was afraid of hurting her earlier?).

Come on, she can't pin someone as large as Hisao. Also, think about Lilly's blindfolding of Hisao — it's identical thematically to Shizune binding Hisao's hands — except that whereas the former is about sight, the latter is about speech: Shizune speaks with her hands.

brythain wrote:

Valjean Lafitte wrote:

brythain wrote: But I will say this: it's not as far-fetched as you might think for a girl about to lose her virginity to want to control the process somewhat—especially if she can't talk or communicate in any direct way if things get out of hand. (Yeah, assumptions etc.)

Wanting to control the process and actually taking control away from the other individual are two different things, though. If she wanted to be in control she could have simply pinned Hisao to the bed/ground and he likely would not have fought her off (why would he if he was afraid of hurting her earlier?).

Come on, she can't pin someone as large as Hisao.

Sure. If she pushes him towards the bed, he'll fall back. If she tries to hold him there, he won't resist.This is Hisao we're talking about here, the guy who freaked out because he fell on her earlier; she knows he won't put up a fight because he won't do anything to hurt her.

And of course I don't mean she would just push him on to the bed without warning. As I said, there are many ways she could have initiated sex that didn't involve taking away Hisao's freedom of movement. She could have leaned in for a kiss, unbuttoned his shirt, unzipped his pants -- just engaged in some sort of foreplay and then pushed him down on to the bed, climbed on top and did her thing. In control of the situation without taking away control from the other person. That be would a normal course of events for many people, but it almost seems like we have to make excuses for her weird decisions because she's deaf and has a hard time communicating with people. Maybe we should ask metalangel if people in the deaf community are really so afraid of losing control, but I doubt that that first time is really much different for them than it is for the hearing.

Also, think about Lilly's blindfolding of Hisao — it's identical thematically to Shizune binding Hisao's hands — except that whereas the former is about sight, the latter is about speech: Shizune speaks with her hands.

I don't see how they're identical. For one, I think it's quite the assumption to say that Shizune was trying show Hisao what it's like to be her. There are better times to do that and in better ways. When Lilly blindfolds Hisao she makes it clear that she wants Hisao to experience sightlessness, but it's a playfully erotic act for her (and for him when he sees what she is doing); unlike in Shizune's scene, almost no power is taken away from Hisao. By listening to the sound of Lilly's breathing he can find her and proceeed make love to her, whereas Shizune takes away his ability to even physically interact with her body (I'm sure she didn't take into account the possibility that he'd actually rock the chair in order to get it over with quicker). I can't see Lilly doing the same -- certainly not without discussing it with him first.

People wrote:Shizune's first sex scene debate

Interesting topic for debate. My two cents on the issue:

Brythrain wrote:Also, think about Lilly's blindfolding of Hisao — it's identical thematically to Shizune binding Hisao's hands — except that whereas the former is about sight, the latter is about speech

I think I'm with Valjean on this one. Fact is, Lilly blindfolding Hisao took place after both of them had had sex multiple times, were comfortable with how each of them saw sex and were in a position where they could start to experiment with each other.
Shizune tying Hisao up, on the other hand, took place before either of them knew how the other viewed sex, what they were comfortable with or (IIRC, please correct if I'm wrong) whether the other had actually had sex previously.
Added to that, removing the ability to communicate via sign language (which would probably have been pretty difficult anyways) seems different to removing sight, in that it makes it difficult for Hisao to not only communicate, but to have any active role whatsoever.

TL;DR, The differences are that a) Lilly is introducing Hisao to sex in a new way, while Shizune is introducing him to sex for the first time and b) Lilly removing Hisao's ability to see still afforded him control in what they were doing, whereas Shizune tying him to the chair effectively removed both his ability to communicate and his ability to move freely, which was kind-of a dick move, especially considering that it was basically unannounced, unlike with Lilly.