Katawa Shoujo Forums

Pentaghost wrote:The painting for Shizune's bad ending is what really made it sad. I hated seeing that little stuffed toy that Hisao won for her.

It very clearly indicates that she still has feelings for Hisao but is pushing him away regardless because she sees herself as a failure. That is pretty sad.

Pentaghost wrote:I was never really affected by the bad endings in the same way as I was with the good endings though, and I think it's because I never actually viewed them as "real". Sure, I made sure to read through them just to see what could have happened, but I distanced myself from them emotionally in a way because I knew that that's not, in my head anyway, how things actually turned out.

I made myself read through bad and neutral endings of each route before I would allow myself to finish the good ending, which created a similar effect. Every time, I would think to myself "Oh wow, I could have really screwed things up there, huh? Well, time to figure out how things really turned out!"

Even with that being the case, Rin's neutral ending was extremely rough for me. That ending is so beautiful in its utter despair

Mirrormn wrote:Maybe she actually secretly wishes Hisao wants a romantic relationship with her, and is trying to give him an opening to admit it. She did come to him for sex when she felt she needed comforting, after all, and he complied, so there is definitely a basis for suspicion of romantic feelings between them. And she seems a little hung up on the word "friend" as it is used in the conversation. In fact, when Hisao says "And you're my friend" and she responds "That's it?", you could interpret that as meaning "Is that all I am to you?" instead of "Is that the only reason you're doing this?"

It's a mysterious route, Shizune's.

That's exactly how I read it during both the good and bad endings, simply as an extension of the love triangle. It's still how I would choose to interpret it, just because, hey - hinted-at Misha route. Completely nonexistent, of course, but one can only dream.

Regardless, you raise half a dozen other fascinating points. That short exchange really is one of the best parts of Shizune's route (along with Look Aside/Look Forward), really exemplifies its depth of writing. Excellent post.

I disagree that Hisao broke Shizune. You could say he broke Hanako and you could make the argument that he lead Rin down the path to tearing herself apart, but with Shizune it felt more like he held a mirror up to her and told her "this is the kind of person you really are," and she just couldn't take it.

One thing that interests me too is how thoughtout the game, even in other characters paths, Misha is shown to be a much better person than Shizune is. She's more open, doesn't make enemies (especially not enemies because they're friends with people she's enemies with), and even tries to talk to Hisao a time or two without Shizune in order to see if there's anything she can do to help. That's the core of her character. She wants to help people, while Shizune either wants to lead them or defeat them.

Mysterious Stranger wrote: That's exactly how I read it during both the good and bad endings, simply as an extension of the love triangle. It's still how I would choose to interpret it, just because, hey - hinted-at Misha route. Completely nonexistent, of course, but one can only dream.

Regardless, you raise half a dozen other fascinating points. That short exchange really is one of the best parts of Shizune's route (along with Look Aside/Look Forward), really exemplifies its depth of writing. Excellent post.

If that is the case, it really throws a whole new dynamic into the route, and changes the context of Misha's decisions throughout the end of Act 3 and all of Act 4. Let me reinterpret things from that perspective:

It starts with the fight about graduation between Misha and Shizune. At that point, Misha does some self-reflection, which she later recounts to Hisao on top of the roof: "I thought about it a lot these last few days, and I don't want to hate anyone. You, or Shicchan. It's so stupid that I ever felt like that, isn't it, Hicchan? I don't want to think about that kind of stuff ever again. And missing people, and being apart from them; I'm tired of it, and don't want think about it anymore." So, in an attempt to act on those thoughts, she decides to try to get closer to the people in her life. But! she's already been romantically rejected by Shizune, and tried to be as close to her as possible, only to result in Shizune pushing her away. She can't go down that road any farther. Her desire must lead in a different direction, then, so she turns to Hisao. They certainly spend a lot of time together, and it's not crazy to think that Misha could have feelings for more than one person at a time. Likely, she still feels more strongly for Shizune, but realizes that love will always be unrequited. But, she thinks indulging her feelings for Hisao might help her forget about, or replace, her feelings for Shizune.

Thus, the infamous scene in Tongue-Tied. Misha is actually kind of strangely flirtatious in this scene, which does lend evidence to the theory that she wants Hisao for more than just physical comfort. On the other hand, flirtatiousness could just be a cover for nervousness, who knows. Most tellingly, just before the request for "comfort", Misha asks "Do you like me, Hicchan?" This could, similarly, just be a cover for nervousness - she's uncomfortable directly asking for sex, so the question basically allows her to "test the waters", so to speak - but it could also be a more honest and meaningful inquiry. It could be that, at the time, she actually thinks there might be a chance for her and Hisao to have a real connection. What's interesting is Hisao's response of simply "Yeah", which may not really be what Misha is looking for, and could be the reason their subsequent sex is so awkward and wrong. It could be that she is expecting, or at least hoping for, some sort of impassioned confession from Hisao at that point. And that does actually go some way towards excusing her for her actions as a whole on that night. Any way you look at it, going to your best friend's boyfriend for sex is an incredibly selfish thing to do, and Misha doesn't really seem like an incredibly selfish person, especially in light of her previously quoted determination not to miss people and be apart from them. She must have had some really powerful rationalizations for taking that step, and I can think of none more powerful than thinking Hisao secretly liked her more than Shizune, and that going to him might cause him to abandon Shizune for her. Still selfish, but at least justifiably so. Anyway, when Hisao doesn't respond as vehemently as she expects, the momentum of will that caused her to reach that point forces her to continue with her original plan to ask Hisao for sex, but she is already having second thoughts as she says it. And as the act itself occurs, she begins to realize it was a very bad idea; that this is probably not enough to build a relationship with Hisao, and definitely enough to ruin her relationship with Shizune. After they're finished, Misha starts to say something, but we never figure out what it is: "...Hicchan? ...Never mind, Hicchan." It could be that in that moment, she was considering revealing her true intentions to Hisao - that she wants him to be with her instead of Shizune - but loses her courage at the last second, correctly surmising that doing so will more than likely cause her to lose him and Shizune both. However - and this is the key difference between the good and bad paths - the act of sex itself changes Misha's hopes for the possibility of a relationship between her and Hisao developing at some point in the future. And why shouldn't it? A person in a normal, happy, committed relationship would not agree to such a request, like Hisao did, so Misha has reason to believe that Hisao's relationship with Shizune is not really all that serious, and it's not a huge leap of logic to speculate that the problem could be that Hisao has realized he likes Misha more than Shizune. But Misha realizes that if she wants Hisao to herself, going behind her best friend's back is not a good way to accomplish it. So instead, she resolves to wait out the situation, hoping that Hisao will break up with Shizune so that he can be with her instead. This could be why she so adamantly avoids Shizune in the following days; her tryst with Hisao was not just a one night stand that she can forget about, but rather the start of an active plan of ongoing betrayal. It would be impossible for her to spend time with Shizune with a plan like that circulating in her head.

Unfortunately, the events of Look Aside don't support this theory as well as I would like. It seems very strange for Misha to confess her feelings for Shizune to Hisao right after deciding that she wants to pursue him romantically. I mean, that is a gigantic mixed signal to be sending. Nevertheless, maybe she doesn't realize how confusing such a confession would be for Hisao, and tells him what she does just because she needs to get it off her chest, or because she thinks the emotional openness will be a good step towards Hisao's affection. The main point to make here is that under the theory of Misha being romantically interested in Hisao, Hisao's actions in Look Aside/Look Ahead matter much less. Under this theory, Misha has already made her decisions about what is going to happen for the rest of the route based on the night with Hisao, and everything else is just letting those decisions play out.

However, it's still kind of interesting to speculate on how those decisions could effect Shizune in her ultimate decision to break up with Hisao. Most importantly, there is the conversation between Misha and Shizune that occurs just after the end of Act 3, which Shizune recounts in Grand Strategy. If you believe that Misha is actually actively planning to steal Hisao away from Shizune, then this conversation could take on intriguingly malicious connotations. I noted before how Shizune echoes Misha's words in Terminal as her justification for breaking up with Hisao... it could be that, during that conversation, Misha purposefully tried to project a feeling of doubt and unease onto Shizune about her relationship with Hisao. Given that the conversation does not occur within the text of the game, but is later summarized by Shizune, it could be that more was said in that conversation than what Shizune actually relayed to Hisao. It does make sense that if Misha said anything negative about Hisao, or anything that gave Shizune reservations about the strength of Shizune's relationship with him, Shizune wouldn't relate that to Hisao later on. Of course, all the other considerations that I noted in my previous post are still weighing on Shizune: she still feels like Hisao is avoiding her, she still feels like a failure for not being able to reconcile with Misha, she still feels like her relationships are selfish and destructive, and that she may have never truly loved Hisao from the start, and just used him for her own amusement. But the extra dimension of Misha possibly prodding her into those lines of thoughts would help explain why she seems so resolute when she finally breaks up with Hisao in Terminal.

In fact, you might even go so far as to say that Misha might have intentionally tried to cause Shizune and Hisao's breakup later on in the story. Maybe, by the end of Parfait, she is tired of waiting for Hisao to make the first move by breaking things off with Shizune. She sees hope in the situation as Hisao seems to take a great deal of interest in cheering her up, but she's not satisfied with just that; she needs to know whether or not Hisao actually has any serious feelings for her (remember Hisao's very unenthusiastic response of "Yeah" during Tongue-Tied). So, at the very end of Parfait, she presses him, fishing for some indication that he's taking an interest in her as more than a friend. But she doesn't get it. So, she decides that if she wants anything to come of her plan, she has to take matters into her own hands, and that means getting Shizune to break up with Hisao instead of the other way around. This couldn't really occur earlier in the route, because if Shizune was resolved to break up with Hisao before the events of Parfait, she would never be so enthusiastic about getting him to help her with her problems with Misha. Just like with my previous explanation of indirect influence, there has to be some action by Misha, or lack thereof, after the events of Parfait that effects Shizune enough to get her to skip class in the bad route and not do so in the good route. In this case, however, it could be a much more sinister action. Misha might have gone to talk to Shizune again and this time been more forceful about criticizing her faults, with specific emphasis on how she is being a destructive influence on Hisao. She might have anonymously and subtly called Shizune's attention to something that exacerbated Shizune's own doubts about Hisao: for example, giving her some evidence that he was not sick at all on the day of Look Aside, and was definitely lying to her about his actions on that day. She might have even explicitly told Shizune about Hisao's infidelity. That would definitely force Shizune's hand and make her break up with Hisao, that's for sure.

All in all, I think the theory is a bit of a stretch given how little evidence it has in the text. Despite the ways in which I noted that it does fit with the story, there are also several places where it doesn't. And it gives Misha's character a rather manipulative and selfish spin that frankly makes me uneasy. But it's definitely interesting to consider.

Just a thought ( and im not joking ) ... after all this time could shizune regret shooting down misha confession ??

Because it seems Misha only had sex with Hisao to get back at Shizune ( so no real relationship will start between Misha and Hisao )

In the end did both Shizune and Misha just use Hisao to dance around the feelings they have for each other ??

Is it possible that Shizune is more mad at herself for both messing any future relationship up with Misha and using Hisao ?? ( She keeped the stuff cat as a way to say sorry )

rydiafan wrote:Just a thought ( and im not joking ) ... after all this time could shizune regret shooting down misha confession ??

Because it seems Misha only had sex with Hisao to get back at Shizune ( so no real relationship will start between Misha and Hisao )

In the end did both Shizune and Misha just use Hisao to dance around the feelings they have for each other ??

Is it possible that Shizune is more mad at herself for both messing any future relationship up with Misha and using Hisao ?? ( She keeped the stuff cat as a way to say sorry )

I simply think Shizune just turned her down because she couldn't have feelings like that for a woman (she's not a lesbian). She might regret how things turned out because of it but I don't think she would have changed her answer. I don't know 100% though just speculating.

Mirrormn wrote:

Dreager_ex wrote:I think I'm going to have to focus a lot harder on their thought processes when I read the other stories.

I'd say that Rin's route would benefit from such intent focus, but in the other routes, it's really not all that necessary, since the motivations of the characters are generally explained in full by the end. In fact, in those routes, being somewhat unsure of the motivations of the characters serves to heighten the drama of the stories and make them more enjoyable. Rin's intentionally very difficult to understand, and I find teasing out her motivations and thought processes through careful analysis is often a very emotionally rewarding experience. Also, Aura (Rin's path author) is a better writer (in my opinion) than A22 (Shizune's path author), so in Rin's route you get better clues as to what your interpretations should be, and there is more effort spent on ensuring you have an emotional investment in her regardless of your level of understanding, so you can still get the full experience of the route on your first playthrough and then go back and think more about it later.

Yeah Shizune's is only the second route I've taken. My first natural route was Emi's and while that did take a little bit of 'meta-thinking' to understand it wasn't nearly as subtle as Shizune's so I think that's what threw me off in terms of my own thought processes. Looking at the other three girls I was suspecting Rin and maybe Hanako being hard to read/understand. Like I said I'll just be a little more careful as I read through it so I'm not completely baffled by the end.

Mirrormn wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote: That's exactly how I read it during both the good and bad endings, simply as an extension of the love triangle. It's still how I would choose to interpret it, just because, hey - hinted-at Misha route. Completely nonexistent, of course, but one can only dream.

Regardless, you raise half a dozen other fascinating points. That short exchange really is one of the best parts of Shizune's route (along with Look Aside/Look Forward), really exemplifies its depth of writing. Excellent post.

(ridiculously insightful mega post)

I'd say that your take on that aspect of the arc fits rather well overall. The only major issue would be, as you said, Misha's grandmaster manipulation of events. But even that could possibly fit if you think about how for the vast majority of the route, Hisao is exposed only to the fake, overly cheerful Misha. Look Aside and Look Forward are the only scenes where Hisao gets to meet the "real" her. Who knows, maybe under that ecstatic facade she's not only emotionally torn, but perhaps has also developed a vindictive side as well?

Of course, that's entirely speculation, and I can't think of anything in the arc that could support that. Still interesting to think about. And of course, Ms. Mikado is awesome regardless.

must...urge...not...to...OVER-ANALYZE...

...for now

Mirrormn wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote: That's exactly how I read it during both the good and bad endings, simply as an extension of the love triangle. It's still how I would choose to interpret it, just because, hey - hinted-at Misha route. Completely nonexistent, of course, but one can only dream.

Regardless, you raise half a dozen other fascinating points. That short exchange really is one of the best parts of Shizune's route (along with Look Aside/Look Forward), really exemplifies its depth of writing. Excellent post.

Interpretation thread of insightfulness

Hm, things like that would've made a Misha route much more viable. In Lilly and Hanako's routes, I think it's implied that the other non-love interest has an interest in Hisao, but they both back off. I know that there isn't much text evidence to back Mirrormn's theories, but if there was any way any of the theories could be confirmed, it would have added much needed depth into Shizune's arc.

Wow.

Impressive Analysis by many here. However you all seem to miss a singular, salient point.

In the bad ending, Hisao very clearly realizes (and states) that not only has Shizune watched Hisao and Misha on the roof discussing the fact that they had sex, but that SHIZUNE CAN READ LIPS AND WAS "EAVESDROPPING" SO SHE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. (Please excuse my capslock) I don't have the time right now, but if you like I can post screenshots of the relevant text. (Although I'm sure you can find it on your own) It clears up a PILE of Shizune's reasoning for the bad ending.

Bigbishounen wrote:In the bad ending, Hisao very clearly realizes (and states) that not only has Shizune watched Hisao and Misha on the roof discussing the fact that they had sex, but that SHIZUNE CAN READ LIPS AND WAS "EAVESDROPPING" SO SHE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. (Please excuse my capslock) I don't have the time right now, but if you like I can post screenshots of the relevant text. (Although I'm sure you can find it on your own) It clears up a PILE of Shizune's reasoning for the bad ending.

That's actually not the case. He speculates that she might be able to read lips, and subsequently wonders how much she could've overheard. Also, the fact that Misha and Hisao slept together is never directly mentioned during Look Aside. One could argue that Shicchan's a smart enough girl to figure it out on her own at that point, but there's only so far you can go without making tremendous leaps of logic.

Bigbishounen wrote:Wow.

Impressive Analysis by many here. However you all seem to miss a singular, salient point.

In the bad ending, Hisao very clearly realizes (and states) that not only has Shizune watched Hisao and Misha on the roof discussing the fact that they had sex, but that SHIZUNE CAN READ LIPS AND WAS "EAVESDROPPING" SO SHE KNEW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. (Please excuse my capslock) I don't have the time right now, but if you like I can post screenshots of the relevant text. (Although I'm sure you can find it on your own) It clears up a PILE of Shizune's reasoning for the bad ending.

I don't miss that point at all, Bigbishounen. That moment of realization is probably the single piece of writing in Shizune's route that I have read and pondered the most. In fact, I originally registered on this forum for the specific reason of asking if anybody could clearly interpret it for me! Unfortunately, I can't accept your interpretation. Let me quote the text we are referring to:

Katawa Shoujo wrote: I lied to Shizune through my teeth that nothing was wrong. Or, to be more exact, I lied through my hands. And at the exact same time, I was carrying on an entirely different conversation with Misha.

That conversation, understandably, could upset Shizune. But there was no way that she could have heard it. Even Misha's hands, usually signing all her thoughts, were completely still. Even if they weren't, I was standing in front of her, blocking them from Shizune's view.

The only way that Shizune could listen in on that conversation would be if she could read lips. Pretty much the first thing I'd asked about when taking sign language was about lip reading, just out curiosity. It's not easy, nor is it perfect... so I'd never considered it until now.

It would make sense, and the room for misunderstandings while reading lips wouldn't help.

You'd like to assert that this train of thought is referring to Misha's conversation with Hisao on the roof. But, that scenario really doesn't fit Hisao's recollection here, for several reasons. First of all, he recalls that in the encounter he is remembering, he told Shizune that "nothing was wrong". He doesn't say that at any point in the rooftop encounter. He does decline to leave with Misha and Shizune, saying that he still doesn't feel well, but Shizune doesn't press him on the issue. She does press him earlier in the same scene, when she finds him in the library:

Katawa Shoujo wrote: Shizune: [ Is something wrong? ]
Hisao: [ What? ]
Shizune: [ Is something bothering you? Because you're acting a little suspicious today, in a different way. ]
...
Hisao: [ Nothing. ]

But Misha is not present during that conversation, so that can't match the mysterious recollected scenario either. There's also the matter of how "even Misha's hands, usually signing all her thoughts, were completely still." As Hisao talks to Misha on the roof, there is no mention whatsoever of what she is doing with her hands. You'd think that if she were making a specific point not to move them, it would be noted in the game text, especially considering that it's implied that Misha is unable to prevent herself from signing as she speaks without the use of a physical distraction, such as spinning a pencil in her hands.

One other reason the rooftop scene doesn't fit is because Shizune already admitted to Hisao that she observed at least some part of that conversation. From Grand Strategy:

Katawa Shoujo wrote: Shizune: [ Yesterday, ]
I catch the hint of a knowing smile on her face when she sees my poorly-hidden panic at the word. Despite her best efforts, she can't help being satisfied in eliciting surprise from everyone else, to the very end. Even then, I can see that she has bigger concerns from how quickly her smile vanishes.
Shizune: [ ...before either of you noticed me, I saw what you were saying. I'm not stupid. If I hadn't I could still see through Misha while we were walking back. Even if she hadn't told me everything later. She didn't make a big deal out of it, but any way you look at it, it's my fault, isn't it? ]

Note how Shizune is completely focused on Misha with regards to what she overheard (oversaw?) on the rooftop. Here's what was actually said near the end of that rooftop conversation (cutting out the moments of reflection by Hisao):

Katawa Shoujo wrote: Misha: I thought about it a lot these last few days, and I don't want to hate anyone. You, or Shizzan. It's stupid that I ever felt like that, isn't it, Hicchan? I don't want to think about that kind of stuff ever again. And missing people, and being apart from them; I'm tired of it, and don't want to think about it any more. I already did, though. So~! ...I'm still really the worst kind of person. I wasn't thinking that it would be better if Hicchan had never come to this school. I was thinking... wouldn't it be better if I just died? After all, I've done something really terrible, now. Unforgivably terrible.
Hisao: Don't be stupid. Sorry. I realized, I hate it when I'm left feeling regretful, over anything. Even so, it's impossible for me to not end up regretting something. Yesterday, I did a stupid thing. That's probably part of the reason why I'm here right now, so I could figure out if I could maybe... make it right, somehow. Do you ever feel that way? You said you've done some terrible things. You can try fixing them.
Misha: Hicchan~, isn't that...
Hisao: No. It's not. I just think that killing yourself is the biggest regret a person could end up with.
Misha: ... Hicchan, you're so dramatic.

It's interesting to think about what Shizune could have gleaned from that conversation. Clearly, she picked up something that made her worried about Misha, presumably something about how she was contemplating suicide. But did she get that directly from Misha saying "I was thinking... wouldn't it be better if I just died?" If so, was she able to see Hisao's response? Even if she can read lips, Hisao's back is to the door, so she probably wouldn't be able to read his lips. Was Hisao signing everything he said, in the same way Misha presumably was? It's possible. If he was, Shizune could have seen him say "Yesterday, I did a stupid thing. That's probably part of the reason why I'm her right now". But if she had caught that part of the conversation, why would she completely fail to mention it later in Grand Strategy, and why would Hisao not be worried about her having caught it? It could be that Shizune intentionally held that piece of information back, and Hisao just didn't realize at the time that she could have oversaw it. But if that were the case, wouldn't his moment of realization in Spiral make reference to the fact that he already knew that Shizune had eavesdropped on some part of that conversation, and he just didn't realize until now how much? It could also be that Hisao was signing his words, but Shizune only got to the door in time to see him say "I just think that killing yourself is the biggest regret a person could end up with." I think that's the most likely option, and that it's unlikely that Shizune saw anything that made her immediately suspicious of Hisao, based on how she treats him through the first half of Act 4.

The point is, the rooftop scene just doesn't at all fit with what Hisao is recollecting in Spiral.

Between leaving the rooftop in Look Aside, and Hisao's one-on-one conversations in Parfait that finally either succeed or fail at cheering her up, there are only two instances in the game text where Shizune, Misha, and Hisao are all in the same scene together. The first is in Off by One when Shizune and Hisao catch Misha on the school grounds with plans of enticing her to go on a picnic. She quickly slips away from this conversation, and it has no matching elements with the scenario Hisao's thinking about in Spiral, so that encounter can be quickly disregarded. The second is at the beginning of Parfait, when Shizune and Hisao both confront Misha in the middle of class. This does have a single matching element with Hisao's mysterious memory: it is the only time in Shizune's route (as far as I can recall/find) when Misha actively avoids signing her words as she holds a conversation in front of Shizune. She has to spin pens (one in each hand, in fact) to give her hands a distraction to accomplish this. Unfortunately, none of the other elements match; Misha doesn't say anything that would be understandably upsetting to Shizune, Hisao doesn't tell Shizune nothing is wrong, Hisao isn't blocking Misha's hands with his body, etc.

I've been up and down Shizune's route, and I have come to the conclusion that the moment of realization that Hisao has in Spiral actually does not refer to any text within the game itself. Since each individual element of his recollection - lying to Shizune about nothing being wrong, Misha saying something upsetting, Hisao blocking Shizune's view of Misha's hands, Misha preventing herself from automatically signing her words - does actually appear in some part of the game, I would theorize that there was, at one point in Shizune's script, a scene in which all of these things happened at the same time, and Hisao's self-reflection in Spiral was written with that scene in mind. But then, that scene was cut from the game for some reason, and the individual elements were split and inserted into other scenes. But the text in Spiral was never properly revised to match the changes in the rest of the script. In summation, Hisao's thoughts in Spiral must be attributed to an editing error.

Mirrormn wrote:

Mysterious Stranger wrote: That's exactly how I read it during both the good and bad endings, simply as an extension of the love triangle. It's still how I would choose to interpret it, just because, hey - hinted-at Misha route. Completely nonexistent, of course, but one can only dream.

Regardless, you raise half a dozen other fascinating points. That short exchange really is one of the best parts of Shizune's route (along with Look Aside/Look Forward), really exemplifies its depth of writing. Excellent post.

If that is the case, it really throws a whole new dynamic into the route, and changes the context of Misha's decisions throughout the end of Act 3 and all of Act 4. Let me reinterpret things from that perspective:

It starts with the fight about graduation between Misha and Shizune. At that point, Misha does some self-reflection, which she later recounts to Hisao on top of the roof: "I thought about it a lot these last few days, and I don't want to hate anyone. You, or Shicchan. It's so stupid that I ever felt like that, isn't it, Hicchan? I don't want to think about that kind of stuff ever again. And missing people, and being apart from them; I'm tired of it, and don't want think about it anymore." So, in an attempt to act on those thoughts, she decides to try to get closer to the people in her life. But! she's already been romantically rejected by Shizune, and tried to be as close to her as possible, only to result in Shizune pushing her away. She can't go down that road any farther. Her desire must lead in a different direction, then, so she turns to Hisao. They certainly spend a lot of time together, and it's not crazy to think that Misha could have feelings for more than one person at a time. Likely, she still feels more strongly for Shizune, but realizes that love will always be unrequited. But, she thinks indulging her feelings for Hisao might help her forget about, or replace, her feelings for Shizune.


(Ridiculously long amazing post full of insight)

So, dear sir, you just put Misha - Protagonist (Hisao) romance in a game where there was supposed to be none (In your face, 4LS? ). That alone makes me want to give you a brofist and a big hug over the Internets (no homo!).

My big regret over the Shizune path is that, essentially, Hisao feels attracted to Shizune no matter what we do or want. That's the one case where I'd like to have some option of overwriting the "stupid protagonist" with my own personality...

Honestly, in regards to Shizune's bad endings, I was sure of two things. This is probably how I would end up in the situation, and I'm saying this as a person that is utterly opposed to cheating and dishonesty. In Hisao's boots, I wouldn't probably be able to work out in a relationship with someone like Shizune. Since Misha is the most physically attractive girl out of the bunch by my standards and there seems to be a lot more to her than the "genki girl" mask she's wearing for most of the game, in such a situation I'd probably do some "comforting" all right, even if I'd go about it slightly differently than Hisao did - hell, I'd do everything different, including the sex itself!

The moment Hisao takes Misha up on her request for comforting, he basically switches to "confused slightly bastardic teenage boy" all the way from "more and more infected with Shizune's competitiveness determinated guy". And we can do nothing about what he does from that point.

In Hisao's case, I'd probably end up telling Misha on the stairs that I probably "like" her more than Shizune, otherwise the situation would've never happened, and that I will have to break it up with the council student president, leaving Misha with a choice to pursue whomever she wants and with a request that she shouldn't push people away and do things she may regret anymore. Also, well, I'd be torn to pieces over the fact of cheating even if I know I'd probably end up doing it : I'm honest like that, so waiting until Shizune maybe catches up on it and breaks up with me? Sorry, no, I'm dumping her just to be fair.

And then I'm probably friendzoned by Misha forever. Just my luck with women. However, given your analysis... again, maybe not.

But I'm just pouring my weird complicated self out here, while, instead, I should be adressing what you wrote about.

First of all, i'd adress what you yourself thought doesn't add up.

Unfortunately, the events of Look Aside don't support this theory as well as I would like. It seems very strange for Misha to confess her feelings for Shizune to Hisao right after deciding that she wants to pursue him romantically. I mean, that is a gigantic mixed signal to be sending. Nevertheless, maybe she doesn't realize how confusing such a confession would be for Hisao, and tells him what she does just because she needs to get it off her chest, or because she thinks the emotional openness will be a good step towards Hisao's affection. The main point to make here is that under the theory of Misha being romantically interested in Hisao, Hisao's actions in Look Aside/Look Ahead matter much less. Under this theory, Misha has already made her decisions about what is going to happen for the rest of the route based on the night with Hisao, and everything else is just letting those decisions play out.

I'm surprised you think this doesn't add up. First of all, it MAY just be her having to get things off her chest, and actually doing it by speaking to Hisao is building up something of an emotional bond. Also...

The way you portrayed the "Tired-of-Shizune-Let's-Chase-Hicchan-Instead", she has a vindictive and manipulative side. She does it maybe not in good faith, but in a natural move - people chase after people they believe they love and can be happy with. Shizune hurt Misha, no doubt about it. It's not even rejecting the confession, its all the bullcrap that happened after. Without Hisao's direct investment, it is unknown if this conflict is ever truly resolved, or just "dodged" in other paths.

If we take this pick on Misha, basically she decides Shicchan isn't worth Hisao's attention, so she may as well take it away from her (ahhh, woman and their bitchy sides). Since its difficult for her to build the relationship with Hisao, she does the next best thing to ensure he doesn't stop trying to interact and thinking about her.

She makes him pity her, which basically the "Oh, Hicchan, I luv Shizune" confession would be in such a situation. Getting pity. It's not a good start for a relationship, but for it to start, he has to break up with Shizune. What it is is a good bonding mechanism. She knows Hisao is too good of a person to ignore her if she reveals the truth about her torment, so she does it.

After they're finished, Misha starts to say something, but we never figure out what it is: "...Hicchan? ...Never mind, Hicchan." It could be that in that moment, she was considering revealing her true intentions to Hisao - that she wants him to be with her instead of Shizune - but loses her courage at the last second, correctly surmising that doing so will more than likely cause her to lose him and Shizune both. However - and this is the key difference between the good and bad paths - the act of sex itself changes Misha's hopes for the possibility of a relationship between her and Hisao developing at some point in the future. And why shouldn't it? A person in a normal, happy, committed relationship would not agree to such a request, like Hisao did, so Misha has reason to believe that Hisao's relationship with Shizune is not really all that serious, and it's not a huge leap of logic to speculate that the problem could be that Hisao has realized he likes Misha more than Shizune. But Misha realizes that if she wants Hisao to herself, going behind her best friend's back is not a good way to accomplish it. So instead, she resolves to wait out the situation, hoping that Hisao will break up with Shizune so that he can be with her instead. This could be why she so adamantly avoids Shizune in the following days; her tryst with Hisao was not just a one night stand that she can forget about, but rather the start of an active plan of ongoing betrayal. It would be possible for her to spend time with Shizune with a plan like that circulating in her head.

1. It may be an overstatement that I tormented myself thinking over what Misha was about to say, but it's not that much of an overstatement. Frustrating.

2. Actually Misha's reasoning in your theory would cover for what I'd be doing in Hisao's boots if I somehow ended up forced into Shizune's route. We cannot speak for Hisao, but I'm afraid he'd feel differently, althought the fact that this sort of reasoning from Misha *does* seem plausible makes for interesting possibilities.

Basically what I'm curious about is the Shiina Mikado that Misha is when you take Shizune out of the equation. It's like a different person. The genki girl is gone - we have a young woman tormented over the fact that she had her losses in life and Shizune might be the biggest yet, but she found herself unable to let go all this time. The situation only deepens if we add the possiblity that Misha may be hoping for a stronger connection with Hisao to the equation.

In terms of empathy and emotional intelligence, Misha may be far more developed that we give her credit for. In both Hanako's path (if you pick the option to help the student council work, which gives you negative points but does not prevent you from obtaining a good end), Misha actually has some pretty good thoughts on Hanako and it seems she tried to resolve how to help with/connect to the shy dark-haired girl even though "Misha" she acts like and Hanako are people so different from each other that it's difficult imagining them getting along. In Emi's path, even though she may or may not be acting on Shizune's behalf, Misha is the only character who can straight-out and openly advise Hisao on how to proceed and get him to act if he had a fight with Emi. Other characters can just give hints.
In Shizune's own path, Misha occasionally seems to play the matchmaker AND is the only character capable of driving Jigoro into a corner, even if it seems she's doing it with an empty head.

These actions make me wonder just how emotionally developed and intelligent Misha is if you take the mask away from her. Actually, that mask itself seems like a pretty good disguise. First of all, the loud, cheerful, energetic Misha is everything Shizune is not, in a way that covers up for her disabilities, so it's useful for Shizune. Also, given that Misha can't win Shizune's affection directly, she may have decided to settle for the second best and try to become the closest person Shizune can have, to the point of Hisao joking she's Shizune's "better half". Basically, until Hisao comes around, Misha seems like someone that, in Shizune's life, could never be replaced and is very important. Without Misha, Shizune would probably get frustrated and lonely a lot more often. I know from experience that even if you're a person who is irritated by cheerful, overly positive people, their influence is sometimes needed and redeeming and actually can make up for the initial dislike, so Misha's sudden genki girl behavior isn't a bad thing, either...


I think considering that as possible added depth to Mikado-Chan's character, your theory isn't at all implausible.

All in all, I think the theory is a bit of a stretch given how little evidence it has in the text. Despite the ways in which I noted that it does fit with the story, there are also several places where it doesn't. And it gives Misha's character a rather manipulative and selfish spin that frankly makes me uneasy. But it's definitely interesting to consider.

And, actually, this also makes sense.

We can easily note that, although Shizune doesn't have many people she's close to, she strongly rubs off on them.

While it may be the case of them growing up in similar environment, Hideaki is basically making it his purpose in life to one-up Shizune, and says so to Hisao's face, although it's hard to say how serious he was.

Hisao in Shizune's path starts out as a guy who is slowly gaining determination and has a competitive side, but by the end of it, seems like a perfect partner for Shizune, absorbing some of her character traits and modifying others to suit her.

The only person who *never* fails to make Lilly rather passive-agressive and gives her a more forceful, criticizing and competitive edge is Shizune as well. At some point, they did have a lot of interaction. It's not a big stretch to think that the precise reason why Lilly only acts that way around Shizune is *because* of Shizune's "personality feedback" in these relations.

Why would we assume that Shiina Mikado, whoever she was previously, wasn't similarly affected by Shizune's influence even if the "Misha" mask is flawlessly on all of the time?

However you look at her, Shizune is more than a bit manipulative even if she often does it in good faith. Misha might've picked up on that. In a situation of direct conforntation, where her own happiness is at stake and against a person that *did* hurt her in the past, why are we not to assume that Misha would go all the way from Shizune's "light-hearted" manipulation to full-blown "bitchy" manipulation?

It's not even a female trait to do such things. It's a human trait. Not a good one, probably, but definitely human.

It's not like thinking that the girl Misha is underneath the mask can be a manipulative person makes me like her more, but if we put it in that light, it does make Shizune's bad route even less of a "ohhh, how tragic" for me. Which makes me think that it's even better that I picked it up as my "true" route in case of Shizune, since after Lilly I was more detached and I could play situations the way I wanted to without worrying about the ending.

Funny thing is, I could do the same with Lilly and I'd easily obtain the good ending anyways. Probably one of the reasons she's on top of my list.


Ok, now that I've written a post half as long and informative as yours, I can be satisifed with it, I think.

Rivan wrote: I'm surprised you think this doesn't add up. First of all, it MAY just be her having to get things off her chest, and actually doing it by speaking to Hisao is building up something of an emotional bond. Also...

The way you portrayed the "Tired-of-Shizune-Let's-Chase-Hicchan-Instead", she has a vindictive and manipulative side. She does it maybe not in good faith, but in a natural move - people chase after people they believe they love and can be happy with. Shizune hurt Misha, no doubt about it. It's not even rejecting the confession, its all the bullcrap that happened after. Without Hisao's direct investment, it is unknown if this conflict is ever truly resolved, or just "dodged" in other paths.

If we take this pick on Misha, basically she decides Shicchan isn't worth Hisao's attention, so she may as well take it away from her (ahhh, woman and their bitchy sides). Since its difficult for her to build the relationship with Hisao, she does the next best thing to ensure he doesn't stop trying to interact and thinking about her.

She makes him pity her, which basically the "Oh, Hicchan, I luv Shizune" confession would be in such a situation. Getting pity. It's not a good start for a relationship, but for it to start, he has to break up with Shizune. What it is is a good bonding mechanism. She knows Hisao is too good of a person to ignore her if she reveals the truth about her torment, so she does it.

I'd be with you if it was any other topic, but... there's Misha on the roof. She has just decided that she wants Hisao, but can't go after him explicitly because she would feel too guilty about hurting Shizune. So she has to get Hisao to see her in a romantic light and decide of his own volition to break things off with Shizune and be with her instead. And her first step in this plan is to tell Hisao that she likes women?? I mean, I know that there is such a thing as bisexuality, but Misha does not even hint to Hisao that she swings both ways. ("I mean~, Hicchan~! I like boys too, but~ Shizune was, I don't know, Hicchan. There was something about her I couldn't resist!" (not a real quote)). And look around these forums; people constantly call Misha a lesbian, even though she asks Hisao to have sex with her. I think even face-value genki-girl Misha would be at least smart enough to realize that coming out of the closet is the exact wrong way to get a man interested in you (in anything other than an unachievable sexual fantasy way), and the secret-evil-mastermind Misha that we are theorizing about would know it even more so.

Rivan wrote:We can easily note that, although Shizune doesn't have many people she's close to, she strongly rubs off on them.

While it may be the case of them growing up in similar environment, Hideaki is basically making it his purpose in life to one-up Shizune, and says so to Hisao's face, although it's hard to say how serious he was.

Hisao in Shizune's path starts out as a guy who is slowly gaining determination and has a competitive side, but by the end of it, seems like a perfect partner for Shizune, absorbing some of her character traits and modifying others to suit her.

The only person who *never* fails to make Lilly rather passive-agressive and gives her a more forceful, criticizing and competitive edge is Shizune as well. At some point, they did have a lot of interaction. It's not a big stretch to think that the precise reason why Lilly only acts that way around Shizune is *because* of Shizune's "personality feedback" in these relations.

Why would we assume that Shiina Mikado, whoever she was previously, wasn't similarly affected by Shizune's influence even if the "Misha" mask is flawlessly on all of the time?

However you look at her, Shizune is more than a bit manipulative even if she often does it in good faith. Misha might've picked up on that. In a situation of direct conforntation, where her own happiness is at stake and against a person that *did* hurt her in the past, why are we not to assume that Misha would go all the way from Shizune's "light-hearted" manipulation to full-blown "bitchy" manipulation?

This is actually a really good point that I hadn't thought of, and it definitely makes the secret-evil-mastermind-Misha theory a lot more plausible. I'm still having a hard time getting past my reservation about Look Aside, though. The way Misha acts in that scene just doesn't fit the theory whatsoever.

Reading the theories put forth in this thread is really making me appreciate Shizune and her arc more and more. Not to mention Misha - she's already overtaken Hanako as my second favorite, but this chessmaster theory is just brilliant and hilarious at the same time. Misha's behind it all!